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edomingox

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Joined: 05/22/2005 16:57:45
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Include 1 deemer Nali in wave 16. Maybe 2.

I notice that high level player's eventually run out of skills to purchase. So maybe add more levels to skills while balancing out the benefits to fit porportionately such as:

Cautiousness: reduce damage by 10% and have 7 levels of that with the same point cost with level 6 = 40 and 7 = 45.

Increase the weapon speed attribute cap. Reason being that with resupply 4, I wouldn't think on some weapons you can't fire fast enough to exhaust all your ammo. It would be like walking around with an infinity rocket laucher of (fill in the blank). I was thinking about raising it just enough so that it drains faster than resupply 4 restores ammo.

Countershove: 15% momentum given with total of 10 levels.

Ghost: level 4 with +150 health.

Iron Legs: 5 levels at 20% reduction of damage each.

Regeneration: add a level 6.

Retaliation: that has the right idea with 5% and 10 levels.

Smart Healing: 20% extra with 5 levels.

Denial: level 4 allows accidental self inflicted deaths.

Add Stability skill: much like the sturdy weapons but only dampening the effect rather than nullifying it out.

This kind of adjustment can be done by any/all the skills. Doing this will basically extend the time it takes to max out a character. But I notice alot of characters are getting close to that point. Maybe even add the possiblity of multi-class characters when they reach a certain level. I wouldn't think it would be a problem to have a Loaded Weapons/Loaded Artifacts player running around. For them to achieve level 300, I'd say they earned it. And if you have to, you can charge double the character points for an "out of class" skill to purchase.

My character skin -
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http://friends.GameFly.com/r/5c9eec123614102a919d
Szlat

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Lots of interesting suggestions there. It is however a bit difficult changing the points for different levels of skills, because then people who have already bought it may want a refund if they get less for their money.

The problem is, the more extra skills you make available to the high level players, the more you increase the difference between high level and low level players. Then, you can't pitch the game difficulty so that it works for both types of player. Either its much too easy for the high levels, or the low levels really struggle.

So, either there has to be a cap on skills, so that once you have reached a certain point you don't really improve your character, or somehow the game has to change so that higher level players get hit harder than low level players (e.g. poison monsters would hit higher health characters more than low level due to the way poison takes a percentage of health).

I think Druid would prefer people created new characters of a different class, rather than trying to keep one character going forever.

On some of the other points:

edomingox wrote:
Include 1 deemer Nali in wave 16. Maybe 2 

Gets my vote

edomingox wrote:
Increase the weapon speed attribute cap 

The cap is mainly there due to the extra loading it puts on the server. If the new server can cope, Druid may increase it, but its unlikely. It is perhaps too powerful an attribute due to the number of infinite medic weapons around.

edomingox wrote:
...have a Loaded Weapons/Loaded Artifacts player... 

This has been discussed before, and the idea was bounced. I run a test system where I have a combined LW/LA/Medic character, and it is much too powerful. LAs need to be dependent on medics for healing, or use up their adrenaline for healing. Give an LA either the medic weapon or Vampire/Regeneration and you have problems. Which is why Druid split them up in the first place.
Grizzled_Imposter

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Just an observation: If the very high level players have a problem with not enough to buy, you would think that it would be them posting......

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v0rTeX

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edomingox wrote:

Add Stability skill: much like the sturdy weapons but only dampening the effect rather than nullifying it out.
 


I actually made a variant on this idea a while ago. I made a skill for my server that allows you to purchase the "sturdy" effect in 4 levels. Each level reduces the momentum you take from enemies by 25%. Since it is a skill and not a weapon modifier, it will be a permanent effect. This is also why I made it a little costly to get all 4 levels.

This skill is very popular among high levels, shock rifle enthusiasts, snipers, and people who just like to not get pushed around so they can stand in the middle of the fight and deliver maximum damage.
edomingox

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Szlat wrote:
This has been discussed before, and the idea was bounced. I run a test system where I have a combined LW/LA/Medic character, and it is much too powerful. LAs need to be dependent on medics for healing, or use up their adrenaline for healing. Give an LA either the medic weapon or Vampire/Regeneration and you have problems. Which is why Druid split them up in the first place.
 


Your right, that would be too powerful. I was thinking that if it was implemented, the skills would cost double or maybe even triple the cost for each level. But that would encourage people to continue playing their high level character without starting over with a new character.

You know what would be cool, having racial abilities. Like resist poison, reflective body, flying ability, underwater breathing, resist fire, etc.

and of course there would be disadvantages such as more susceptable to fire, poison, water damage, less adrenaline pick-up, less energy pick-up.

Those are a few wild ideas right there. I'm sure the coding would be tough for that.

It would be nice to get the Monster Assaults to award extra xp for completion.

My character skin -
http://skincity.beyondunreal.com/?section=skins&action=show_infos&id=1513
or
http://www.utzone.de/include.php? path=content/download.php&contentid=4280
http://friends.GameFly.com/r/5c9eec123614102a919d
320

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Grizzled_Imposter wrote:
Just an observation: If the very high level players have a problem with not enough to buy, you would think that it would be them posting...... 


LOL. It's a good point. In the high levels everyone kind of does their own thing. Some players like to beat their top scores, others like to compete with other players and others just like to sort of "mentor" the new players. And then, of course, a few move on to other games.

I wouldn't be opposed to new challenges in the game but I think the stats and skill caps are just fine where they are.
320

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edomingox wrote:

Szlat wrote:
This has been discussed before, and the idea was bounced. I run a test system where I have a combined LW/LA/Medic character, and it is much too powerful. LAs need to be dependent on medics for healing, or use up their adrenaline for healing. Give an LA either the medic weapon or Vampire/Regeneration and you have problems. Which is why Druid split them up in the first place.
 


Your right, that would be too powerful. I was thinking that if it was implemented, the skills would cost double or maybe even triple the cost for each level. But that would encourage people to continue playing their high level character without starting over with a new character.

 


Even if they were double or triple cost, someone would eventually be able to afford them and that someone would just mow down everyone.

It's also important to note that there is a wide range of skills represented on DC, from beginner to Expert. And skill gap alone accounts for major differences in score. There are people who, at level 80, can outscore those at level 160.

So if you combined an expert player with a combined LA/LW class, the result would be an indestructible player.

Personally, I think as the level/skill increases on the server, the monster difficulty can be slowly tweaked upward, while the starting level of new players can be adjusted to compensate.
Szlat

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320 wrote:
Personally, I think as the level/skill increases on the server, the monster difficulty can be slowly tweaked upward, while the starting level of new players can be adjusted to compensate.  

I think we had to change the difficulty a short while ago because the addition of medics severely impacted on the game difficulty. (And I am not sure it has changed far enough yet, but that is a different subject.)

However, I am not sure of the idea of continually increasing difficulty as high level players get higher, and adding new players at a higher level.

Personally I like the idea of new players starting at level 5. It makes you think about what skills you want to purchase, and makes you earn them. Starting new players on level 50 would cheese off the players who had to work to get there, and would automatically give players the core skills they need. It wouldn't be the same.

When there are just high level players on, the monsters get perhaps too tough for even the high level players, due to the DB/DR stats split based on monster level.

The big imbalances occur when there is a mixture of high and low level players on. Then the monsters are low level, and are cannon fodder for the high level players, who wipe them out before the low levels get a look in.

Suggestions:
  • Add some monsters that can poison players. The health taken is a percentage of health, so it will hit players with high health more than those with low health
  • Perhaps add other types of monsters that hit all players equally. For example, I play on a test server with monsters that have freezing weapons - so the player gets frozen on the spot for one second. Affects all players equally, and is nasty with titans around. But there are other effects which would equally affect all players alike (e.g. give monsters piercing or knockback weapons)
  • The monster level is set based upon the lowest player level. I would reduce the scaling from 0.25 to something lower, to get round the monsters being too hard when only high level players are on. To counterbalance that, I would change the monsters to be aware of the level of the individual player they were against, and react accordingly. This could be by increasing the monster DB/DR based upon the difference between the targeted player and the monster, or adjusting the monster skill. So +10 levels difference adds 10%, +20 20% etc. Or adjust RPGWeapons to be less effective on significantly lower level monsters. I feel the monsters ought to be the same difficulty regardless of who else is on. But they need to be more difficult for high level players than low level players. The high level players still need to do better than low level players, otherwise whats the point in levelling, but not as much difference as there is now.
  • Put occassional Nali redeemers on. Not too many, but they will take out anyone. Or perhaps have monsters with Ultima instead, to give skilful players chance to get out of there rather than the random luck of a redeemer nali.

    Just some thoughts.
  • FodderFigure

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    Grizzled_Imposter wrote:
    Just an observation: If the very high level players have a problem with not enough to buy, you would think that it would be them posting...... 


    I'm a high level player and I'm all for a more powerful character
    I take it personaly when a monster attacks me so I like nothing better than to destroy it before dieing.






    You mean I really am important? How I feel when I'm drunk is correct?



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    My Loaded Weapon character is known as [DC]FodderFigure
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    My Artifact character is known as [DC]FodderFigure_LA
    Grizzled_Imposter

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    FodderFigure wrote:
    I'm a high level player and I'm all for a more powerful character
    I take it personaly when a monster attacks me so I like nothing better than to destroy it before dieing.

    It's time I let you guys in on a secret, I needed as many skills as I could get to keep up whith the great players on here. If I could get my hands on more skills I would be all over that, but the caps are there for a reason and I've reached my quota. 


    See, now I consider that valid. When a Lvl 40-75 player is talking for some one 3 times their level, well that just don't smell right.
    #
    320 wrote:

    It's also important to note that there is a wide range of skills represented on DC, from beginner to Expert. And skill gap alone accounts for major differences in score. There are people who, at level 80, can outscore those at level 160.  


    I have been on the higher side of this. I just wanted to cry when I was playing my around level 40 LW and Fro pops on with his Lvl 8 medic and I can't even near keep up. It was one of the first time I had seen him on the server, but I had read posts about how good he was like that they should change the "godlike" award to "Frolike". Suddenly I knew what they were saying. He passed me in levels with that character in just about a week and a half

    Just the same I take every opertunity to spec the "good" players to see what makes them good. For some, its a matter of 200 levels difference and I don't learn very much except "map skillz". Some others have helped me boost my score by learning stuff like combos, tripple use, or character building skills. Like most of the better players seem to buy movement and jump increase at lower levels than the average player.

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    320

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    Szlat wrote:


    However, I am not sure of the idea of continually increasing difficulty as high level players get higher, and adding new players at a higher level.

     


    This isn't quite what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that as Fodder and Dirty acquire another 100 levels everything should be adjusted. I'm saying it should be some sort of average or median of active players. In other words, as the skill of the server goes up on the whole.

    The issue of the monsters becoming the last remaining player(s) level is almost a bug, IMO. It just doesn't make sense that a monster can take ten shots one moment and then up to a billion shots the next because the last low-level died.

    Still, if monster difficulty continued upward and it became a foregone conclusion that a single high level player left would get decimated, I think you would see a greater tendency toward more team-based play to avoid that scenario. While I like being a lone gun, believe it or not I also love teamplay. But the server as-is doesn't encourage it enough, in my opinion.
    Pyramidion

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    I've been thinking a lot about how to incorporate more of a team oriented game, but still haven't really figured out any great suggestions. I know that I'm a much higher level than when I started, but when I started at DC I did see much more teamwork than what's present. I'm only talking about link ups and group gatherings to defend one another... we are always helping in the area of weapons, health and such... I love DC for this aspect, but I do miss the desparation that was felt when trying to win a map, enough so that only working together would give you a chance.

    2k3 is a great example because it became extremely difficult above wave 20, but with teamwork it was at least possible, while the lonegunman wouldn't last too long. Maybe it's just me, but I loved that, it brought every player together, including the high levels, to unite... don't take this the wrong way, because I loved DC when I started and still do, I just miss winning the map together rather than having 3/4 of people fight alone and still winning without too much struggle. Anyway I don't know what could be done, but I'd have to agree with 320 on missing some teamplay
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    Szlat

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    320 wrote:
    Still, if monster difficulty continued upward and it became a foregone conclusion that a single high level player left would get decimated, I think you would see a greater tendency toward more team-based play to avoid that scenario. While I like being a lone gun, believe it or not I also love teamplay. But the server as-is doesn't encourage it enough, in my opinion.  

    Part of the problem is that players can survive all 16 waves by themselves. They don't need a team backing them up. If it was more difficult, so players needed the others to stand a chance, then it would encourage teamplay more.

    For example, LAs run to medics to get healed, and then go away again. They don't hang around and protect the medic, they go off to kill bugs. I never see high level players using their skill to protect medics.
    However, I have heard calls on wave 16 for a low level player to go and hide somewhere and keep safe so the high level player can wipe out the rest of the monsters. No thought of the high level helping the low level.

    So I agree. Somehow the balance needs tweaking so all players need others. Make it too difficult for one player to survive alone, or add 'group benefiting' artifacts/skills (e.g. artifact whereby players within a certain distance get double damage), or improve the power of the link gun chains so they do serious damage, or adjust the end game bonus so the bonus goes up the more players survive. Lots of possibilities.

    It is worth bearing in mind however that in UT it is quite difficult to protect other players. Should more thought be given to skills/artifacts that high level players can use to protect low levels? For example make the Globe of Invulnerability actually produce a sphere that others can hide inside.

    However, you have to bear in mind I am a team player and like team games. Not everyone plays for that reason, and so not everyone would welcome such a change. And I am not sure it would be right to force such a change on those that didn't want it.
    320

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    szlat wrote:

    Make it too difficult for one player to survive alone, or add 'group benefiting' artifacts/skills (e.g. artifact whereby players within a certain distance get double damage), or improve the power of the link gun chains so they do serious damage, or adjust the end game bonus so the bonus goes up the more players survive. Lots of possibilities.

     


    Actually, the link-up is crazy powerful. People just don't work it to the maximum effect most of the time. Most importantly, the guy in front should have the triple damage. Given that medics can get adrenal drip, this can be a very powerful set up. And if the healing affect is tripled (not sure about that), you could heal players almost instantly, thus having lots of time to kill stuff.



    However, you have to bear in mind I am a team player and like team games. Not everyone plays for that reason, and so not everyone would welcome such a change. And I am not sure it would be right to force such a change on those that didn't want it. 


    I like the team thing as well. It was mandatory in EQ past a certain point and it's a nice feeling working together to achieve a common goal. Even if something like this came to pass, I always know there are going to be easier waves in UTRPG that I can survive on my own. So, there is something for everyone in that scenario, individual and team play.

    The problem introduced, as you sort of touched on, is the same one that happened in EQ. EQ chars can often solo to a certain level and then more or less *must* group with other players or they can't advance. Some people quit the game at that point. I myself quit because I couldn't find a clan to play with on a regular basis that wasn't comprised of 90% drama queens and crybabies. At least in UT, if I don't like what another player is doing, I can do my own thing and put him/her on ignore. (DC also has the benefit of vastly superior moderatation).

    However, consider a few months ago where people were jumping down newbies' throats for having their autotaunts on (Thank poopie for that mod that turns it off automatically, btw). Imagine the breakdowns that could occur when player x doesn't do "what he's supposed to do" so that the team can win. The "He ought to know better" arguments would start flying.
    Fro13

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    Pyramidion wrote:
    2k3 is a great example because it became extremely difficult above wave 20, but with teamwork it was at least possible, while the lonegunman wouldn't last too long. Maybe it's just me, but I loved that, it brought every player together, including the high levels, to unite... don't take this the wrong way, because I loved DC when I started and still do, I just miss winning the map together rather than having 3/4 of people fight alone and still winning without too much struggle. Anyway I don't know what could be done, but I'd have to agree with 320 on missing some teamplay  


    I would love to see the 2k3 brought back in with all the new classes. Even without the classes people would group together in one spot just to try and survive the waves. With the addition to medics, even lower lvl players could survive longer(back in the day they didn't last very long). 2k3 would be a + in my book for teamplay.

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