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KohanX

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Joined: 03/04/2006 13:40:23
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Just a quick thing I noticed:
Denial: level 4 allows accidental self inflicted deaths.
That probably wouldn't be added. Self-inflicted deaths cause you to lose your weapons for a good reason. What if you have crappy weapons and you want to start with a new set? You're screwed; even if you kill yourself, you'll still have that dang Flak -3 (for example). At least, I think that's why it has that failsafe. Anyone may correct me if I'm wrong.
320

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Joined: 10/11/2005 21:28:38
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KohanX wrote:
Just a quick thing I noticed:
Denial: level 4 allows accidental self inflicted deaths.
That probably wouldn't be added. Self-inflicted deaths cause you to lose your weapons for a good reason. What if you have crappy weapons and you want to start with a new set? You're screwed; even if you kill yourself, you'll still have that dang Flak -3 (for example). At least, I think that's why it has that failsafe. Anyone may correct me if I'm wrong. 


For an atifacts player a flak -3 is gold. They can max it to a 5.

I disagree with a denial 4 on the basis that there has to be a penalty for suicide.

The Denial skill is a problem with the LA class already, IMO. Not one I'm going to hit the town square protesting, mind you. But as Artifacts, I can make top weapons, play super aggresive and really not worry. If I die, it is almost always towards the end of the wave and I know I'm coming back with all my weps. The only penalty is 10 points on the scoreboard.

If LW dies, they lose all their artifacts, 10 points, and all their weapons, except the one they were holding when they ate it.

The reality, however, is that the majority of players don't play as aggresively as I do, so maybe the point is moot. Many like to make the super weapons, like Rage and Vorpal. I can understand after spending a ton of adren you don't want to lose those and that's where denial 3 comes in.

But fwiw, I think denial 3 is a bit too overpowered. I think it would be better if there was a % chance that certain weapons wouldn't come back with each death, like maybe 1 in 3 chance. Between stats and the medics, death is a fairly unlikely thing for a LA player over level 100 until wave 16.

Of couse, if anything like this happened I would instantly become the most hated player on the server. I don't really mind though.
Grizzled_Imposter

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320 wrote
Of couse, if anything like this happened I would instantly become the most hated player on the server. I don't really mind though.  


I don't understand

What do you mean "become"



Go ahead, get rid of denial. I have never bought it so at this point I wouldent miss it. ops:

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320

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Joined: 10/11/2005 21:28:38
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Grizzled_Imposter wrote:
320 wrote
Of couse, if anything like this happened I would instantly become the most hated player on the server. I don't really mind though.  


I don't understand

What do you mean "become"



 


Hey I.... well, okay.

Nobody understands Zod.
Szlat

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Joined: 05/18/2005 18:32:41
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The Sturdy weapon type has always seemed a bit underpowered, and the magic effect is not affected by the +.

I can't remember if it has been suggested before, but how about also giving Sturdy weapons the Countershove ability, so as the + goes up, the attackers are knocked back more?

Would make it even more useful on maps with dangerous footing.
320

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Szlat wrote:
The Sturdy weapon type has always seemed a bit underpowered, and the magic effect is not affected by the +.

I can't remember if it has been suggested before, but how about also giving Sturdy weapons the Countershove ability, so as the + goes up, the attackers are knocked back more?

Would make it even more useful on maps with dangerous footing. 


Or just make them 6% per plus. That would make them just shy of 50% as powerful as plain weps.
KohanX

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Hmm... better yet, Denial should have a GUI element that allows for enabling or disabling of its effect. For example, say you don't want your weapon set, but go in guns a-blazin' just because you feel like it, then you die (point for you) and get new weapons later (point for you). Everybody wins. It should also have an alias that a key may be mapped to, having a little message appear letting you know its current position, of course.

But I think Denial III is rather overpowered... I'm not one to say, as I haven't bothered wasting points on it (though there were a few times when I wished I had kept that Knockback Shield Gun), but I personally think that it isn't the greatest ability to have on the RPG. Prepare for a short spiel.

The problem with things like Denial is that it rids the player of some of the real adrenaline of nearing death. We've all been through the 'run like heck with fifty warlords behind you with 11 health left', and it scares the crap out of us, causing us to be more twitchy, more adrenaline-pumped, more aware, sometimes, of our surroundings. But then you have abilities like this that reassure the player, 'don't worry, you'll still have your weapons'.

This is the same reason I oppose giving Medics the ability to revive the dead. I mean, look at it this way: When someone dies at a hospital, they're dead. Medics can do nothing (defibrillation doesn't count) to bring them back from the place their spirit then dwells in. But it once again removes the fear of death, because with revivication, you can just be brought back to life.

Things like Ghost I'm okay with, though, because it's not perpetual. You use it once per wave, and that's it. It's essentially just doubling your Health Bonus, which is a standard feature of the game.
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Joined: 04/23/2005 19:22:53
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While playing a particularily perilous map where the Titan bouncing was deadly, a thought for a new artifact popped into my mind: Iron Boots. The artifact would give the "Sturdy" mod, but maybe enhanced, to lessen knockback from Skaarj blasts, Titan bouncing/punching, etc. I ran the idea past Shantara who was on at the time and she said she quite liked the idea. So i told her i'd post it here for scrutiny. Not really sure how you'd make it work, most likely it'd be adrenaline based. and if not adrenaline maybe something with a 30 second timer similar to Double Damage but you can choose when to activate it?

Well thats my suggestion, what do you guys and gals think?

Spacey

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I would have to disagree with you on denial 3 pretty strongly 320. Try starting out with no weapons next time on your LA player, particularly at the later waves, to remember how difficult it is. The problem I have with denial is that there are times that you are considered to have suicided when in fact you were clearly killed by a bug. And it is a bit frustrating to have a bug bounce you to where you fire into a wall and it considers it a suicide.

As for you becoming the most hated player on the server...well, let's just say that I have a few trainloads of prime midwest meadow muffins sitting on a siding in a classified location, just waiting for the orders to be shipped. Of course, if you believe this, I have a few million head of cattle in Mactown (McMurdo) to sell you as well.

*BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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Spacey

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I have a suggestion regarding the MWM type artifacts, and this one would actually benefit all classes. It would be nice if a weapon which was at or above the maxed out level could be locked and required an "unlock" before a MWM would work on it. I know last night, I was trying to make decent weapons for folks, while using my vorpal shock for the wet work on boom boom. Indeed, it is common for me to switch from my active weapon to another weapon, fire off the MWM on that weapon, then switch back to the first weapon while allowing the MWM to do its thing. While doing this, I keep the MWM equipped for some time. However, when things get a bit nastier, I will switch off to some other artifact and use it. Last night, during one of the nastier rounds (a titan round IIRC), I did the key combinations to switch from my MWM up to my double magic, then activated it while trying to dodge and stay alive. But, a bit of lag occured, and a bit later, I noticed that my vorp shock was now some worthless +1. Now, before you say it is because of my bindings, realize that my binding for the artifact change is the normal ']' and the activate is the PgDn, and I use the same fingers for this. What is more, I clearly pushed the ']', but the lag/loss caused the change to not take place. I also know from the discussion which took place that I am not the only person to which this has happened.

As for how to implement it, I would suggest that weapons have a flag added, which is in one state when you pick up a weapon, and which must be toggled before the MWM would work. So if there is an easy way to set that flag when you pickup, make or max/max+1 a weapon if it taken to the max + or beyond, I would do this. Or, have it set by default, and the flag is only checked if the MWM code finds the weapon at the max + or beyond. As for how to clear it...an artifact which everyone has would be one way. Another way would be something such as using the MWM on the weapon twice, say in a 2-5 second period.

Now if we could only get the stupid artifact rotation fixed so that it does not happen when we ghost or alt-fire a deemer....

*BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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320

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KohanX wrote:


The problem with things like Denial is that it rids the player of some of the real adrenaline of nearing death. We've all been through the 'run like heck with fifty warlords behind you with 11 health left', and it scares the crap out of us, causing us to be more twitchy, more adrenaline-pumped, more aware, sometimes, of our surroundings. But then you have abilities like this that reassure the player, 'don't worry, you'll still have your weapons'.

This is the same reason I oppose giving Medics the ability to revive the dead. I mean, look at it this way: When someone dies at a hospital, they're dead. Medics can do nothing (defibrillation doesn't count) to bring them back from the place their spirit then dwells in. But it once again removes the fear of death, because with revivication, you can just be brought back to life.

 


I agree 100%. If you ever play a game on "godmode", you notice you get bored after awhile. This is exactly why. There's no penalty for dying, and as a result no reward for staying alive.

There are some penalties for dying with Denial 3, but as I said, they are too minor in my opinion. If the medics didn't exist, I wouldn't care, as LA players would be dying at a much higher rate. But considering the medics, Denial 3 is a little too god-mode-ish for my tastes.

In the case of RPG, I make the best use of the tools available. I don't artificially limit myself by self-imposed handicaps and I don't intend to request a stat reset to get rid of the Denial skill. I do impose these handicaps in other games (single player, usually), but not in RPG.

So, it's there and I use it, but with the addition of the medics, introducing some sort of penalty was warranted and fair, in my opinion. It's all moot, really, as I don't forsee Denial 3 going anywhere.
320

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KohanX wrote:


Things like Ghost I'm okay with, though, because it's not perpetual. You use it once per wave, and that's it. It's essentially just doubling your Health Bonus, which is a standard feature of the game. 


Ghost also can be used for an instant health replenish as a wave is winding down. I'm surprised more people don't use it this way, particularly when there are no medics around.
KohanX

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Joined: 03/04/2006 13:40:23
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Hmm... don't think me an idiot for ruining your fun.

If I had access to the source, I'd consider modifying Ghost to only perform on suicides if there were monsters within, say, 10 feet, so you would probably have suicided trying to kill it. But if there are no monsters nearby, then it'd realize you were just trying to exploit it, and let you die.

The same could be tweaked to work with all other suicide situations. It would only really be suicide if no monsters were nearby, thereby preventing the 'a bug killed me, but it says suicide' thing. The only hangup I see on this is that it would be difficult 'not' to be 10 feet away, in many cases. I dunno, I think it should be tested.

Talking about Ghost reminds me of a code snippet I've seen a few times. The code for Ghost has a variable that keeps the player from dying when his health reaches zero, but there's also one that keeps his limbs on. The latter doesn't have to be there, though, so I think it would be a cool April 1st thing to do.

Thanks for your support, Zod . It's nice to have an influential person on my side.
Grizzled_Imposter

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KohanX wrote:

If I had access to the source, I'd consider modifying Ghost to only perform on suicides if there were monsters within, say, 10 feet, so you would probably have suicided trying to kill it. But if there are no monsters nearby, then it'd realize you were just trying to exploit it, and let you die.  


My guess is that you have not died due to lightning Nali lately....I think that you would need something other than range to trip this. I have died on one wave 15 because I walked over a rock that was sitting on the ground that a titan had thrown the previous wave.

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Moof

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Tank subclass!

Check it out: we have a healer/summoner class, a "twitch" offense class, and an "equipment" class, which could be likened to various playstyles of more traditional all out RPG gamers. We don't have any casters or tanks. Casters won't work just because it's UT. Tanks will!

Maybe a tank weapon maker, like the medic weapon maker. It makes a weapon do next to no damage, but as long as you're shooting something with it, that monster focuses on you and only you. Then the other players beat it up while you either get healed, or survive because of another tank skill. This could be a subset of the WM class.

Balance might be an issue: perhaps reduce a player's overall damage in exchange for tanking. That's how I play it, anyway (I'm almomst always a tank/fighter class in RPGs)...little finesse, lead with your face and LOTS of armor, and be a damage sponge while the other players kill things.

Moof, Scholar of Ni

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