Extreme AM Report

Szlat wrote:

Which means the most exploitable bit has to be capped. Elite - we probably need you to clarify
a) if the rumour is true?
b) what was the thing overpowered?

Yes it is true I have been able to score around 10,000 in points and in xp almost double that, but this happens on rare maps of course but still this should not happen at all. Before as a normal AM the triple and rod would take out most of the monsters especially the small ones without much trouble, it would only have trouble when against gas bags, queens, and titans. But with the Extreme AM, it can take out any monster, with the small critters I can use the triple and rod and for the big ones just 2 zaps from the beam and they are gone and since they both do piercing damage theres no trouble when being last especially when you start off with max adrenaline every time. I have already suggested what should be done in the previous posts, and the things that are overpowered IMHO are the triple and rod for original AM and definitely for Extreme AM, and then the beam only for Extreme AM.

And now for those others who were suggesting adding more waves or increasing the level of the monsters, what has happened is the classes have become more diverse enabling a player to adapt to almost any map and any situation. The classes have not gotten stronger and the ones that did will get nerfed in time, but aside from that monsters have not changed one bit so why should their level? I suggest just as our classes expanded into different specialties and areas, shouldn't the monsters as well? To make things fair at least? I am not saying to add monsters that only a certain class can kill, but to add monsters that are more effective in killing a certain class, but less effective in killing another class.

For instance: for the engineers their weakness is their constructions, all you need would be a monster that would specifically target the constructions above any other target, making it is sole priority. It could be a monster that has the exact same effect that a hellbender or any land vehicle has when it runs into engineer blocks distorting them and damaging parts of the base. Or it could be a monster that would try and take out a vehicle or turret or sentinel by using an ultima of some sort, just ideas.

For the adrenaline master, their weakness is their adrenaline, I know this has been discussed before but what about the mage idea that would target adrenaline masters and deplete their adrenaline and while depleting their adrenaline it would damage the health of the AM according to how much adrenaline was lost (ex. if 250 adrenaline was absorbed then 250 damage would be done leaving most AMs with 50 health left)

For the WM their weakness is their vamparism, so why not add a monster that acts as a parasite once latched onto the WM, starts off as a pupae, but as the WM kills so does the parasite always feeding off the WM, and only another player would be able to kill the parasite, giving more damage to the WM as it grows. But if the WM dies then so would the parasite unless it can find another WM to latch on to.

For the Medics their weakness is their pets except for the Extreme Medic, but anyway a monster that would turn pets into normal monsters even with the attributes it currently had. For example if cribbage summons a red skaarj with everything maxed including retaliation and countershove, and one of these monsters gets a hand on it and posseses it then the red skaarj would turn on him with increased damage bonus and damage reduction, and since most pets follow the owner it would target the owner first since the owner has the exact same attributes as the pet does. So it would not target a lower level player. And if the pet succeeds and kills the owner then the pet itself would also die or if you want it could stay alive and try and kill the rest of the players, just an idea.

I do not know if I posted this on the wrong place but since people started the subject here it felt right to try and give an suggestion to what they were thinking. Also every class would be less effective in killing their own specific monster

Ratar_Killer wrote:

Here comes the Flame!!!

Please dont take the triple off the Rod for regular AM. It's really the only way I can survive on wave 12. I really believe it will take so much away from the class. I rarely put heart felt emotion into my posts, but it would be wrong to do this to the AM.

I suggest eliminating the Rod from Extreme AM's and make it so they cant pick it up.

I am really against this change, Please take into consideration my time on this server and my AM level.

Thank you

I would have to agree with Ratar here, and say that double+rod or triple+rod for regular AM is not that bad of a combination, and is borderline essential for the regular AM. There are times even against the vamp flies in earlier waves that I would be all but done in by those buggers. The only way I tended to stay alive without using that combo was to try to go into the wave with 250 adren, and then with an E+4 flak, globe it. But heaven help me when the lower levels dropped out, as I would not only have to go purely defensive, but start hiding with my regular AM, especially on the later waves.

OK... a couple of more things here.

1) First, as I have pointed out before, Elite is not a typical player, even among the best players on the server. Just take a look at his scores and the gap between him and the next player on gametracker. For this reason, using him as the basis to nerf a class just because he can score 20k XP on rare occasions, or maintain a combo of artifacts throughout a wave is not a "good thing" IMNSHO.

2) Even as one of the better players on the server, my EAM at level 271 or so is generally scoring comparably on XP to the Berserkers for Desert_Wrath and ZOG, and Wayno's Extreme Medic. Likewise with Rapier's Sentinel Specialist, which depending on map and player mix, has gotten nearly 2x the score and 1.5x the XP of me on a number of occasions. Yes, there are times we can get players who stand out on a map. There was a time in the past week or two where I played Hanger with Clue and Smurf and a few others. I had 2418/3688 for the entire map, Southpaw had 508/992, smurf 357/602 and Wayno had 34/955 for 10:26/33:14 (meaning he could possibly have had around 3000xp had he been on the entire game, if not more). A later game, I decided to redo my points as a regular AM, and spending half the game mucking around spending the points, I scored 1437/1857, Southpaw was 1435/2706, Brandi was 368/529, and Wayno was 246/5606.

Another game (Tutorial Classic for 26:56), with blade_tx at 2497/3287 (WM), me with 2431/4099 (EAM), Dallas with 548/796 (WM for only 11:09), Southpaw 376/890 (AM), Shazbot 189/918 (Medic). Yes, I broke the 4K XP level, but I also ran a number of globes that map.

Another one... Megawoot again (we seem to play this one lots)...Desert_Wrath with his berserker doing 2830/4670, Road's EWM doing 2098/3043, Clue's ENG doing 1144/550, I did 981/1922, Bos did 536/744, PimHead did 334/1130, and everyone else was lower.

Going back a bit further... I have a instance of SpaceNoxx, running 31:52. Elite playing his normal AM, had 3198/4437, I was playing my EAM and got 1541/2354, Belle-ENG had 219/290, and Diablo had 28/101 with their WM.

I have looked at over 400 screen caps representing 100+ games (3 caps per game typically), and the point I am trying to make here is it all depends on alot of factors, not limited to map, player combinations, where we all happen to be, where the monsters are, etc. There are times some of us will get a PPH of 5000+, just based on a combination of these factors, and these will translate into high scores and xp.

3) Here is something I will once again bring up... what happens at the end of a wave with players who survived. WM's with resupply get full ammo on all weapons, do they not? If so, why do AMs not get full adren? I don't know how Elite does it, but even on waves with just Titans, Queens and Warlords and starting with 250 adren, using just the beam, try as I might, I will often be low of adren by the time I get to the Holy S*** spree, even if I am killing them with two shots. And heaven help me if I get swarmed by them, as I can all but guarantee I am going to die, as I have lost track of the number of times when I am low on adren I am shooting the same titan sometimes a half dozen times with the beem trying to kill it, firing flak or rockets all the while. And no longer can I count on using something like an E+4 to help, since I run out of ammo. Even with a Lucky+8, I am often hurting at times, and this does not even begin to consider things like only high level players being alive, or swarms at times when I could not even begin to consider something like megablast.

Important reminder too... I have learned how to often determine the max range with the beam and not waste time trying to shoot something at that range. And even then, given my playing history (3+ years of lunch/evening games with guys on the pro-tour, hanging out on sniper servers, etc), I will pick off even things like skarrj at that range more often than not.

Oh... and one last thing before I head to bed. There are maps and instances where nothing an EAM can use will do any good. Stuck on one of the platforms in megawoot because that is the only place you can survive (having died around wave 10 or so)... you are pretty much just along for the ride at that point, hoping to get adren by occasional kill steals using a shock or rocket you grabbed in the few seconds between spawning and getting the jump pad to the platform.

Well, night folks. Hope to play some tomorrow evening, even though we have to load the van and get an early start to Coronation at like 6:30AM saturday...

ok who's getting crowned?

just few things that i want to say..

1) elite, could you post the pic from the 10k exp game?
that could help a lot, since szlat could see what you did..

2) i know sub classes are in beta (or whatever you want to call it)however i think we are only seeing a small picture.we are only seen the top of curve..
the word compare in this server is funny compare to what?
whats normal EXP? for a lvl 100? for a lvl 200? for a 300?
whats a normal score? for a lvl 100? for a lvl 200? for a 300?

are there any table from scores? for exp? no, players are hidding it..
if i make 5k in an eng, with the help of 3 engs thats bad
but if a player does +7k +8k or even +10k, that must be wrong..
and whats worst.. players not posting it...

3)this point dont belong to here in EAM, but need to say..

GUYS the main porpouse of high lvls and sublcasses is to T-E-S-T, right now im only seeing players that use one subclass, im not saying a sublcass that is more powerfull than another, just their favorite one,

at that rate we will never have subclasses.

what spacey did is at least what im specting from the high's a "pic" from their scores and exp, otherwise how in the name of all hells szlat would be able to balance???
he is just in a blind spot, he cant text, and high players ( not every high playe, there are few exceptions) arent trowing light to the shadows upon szlat eyes..

4)we need more tests from players that have all the classes or at least 3 classes in the same lvl range(like elite) to compare..

now the ball is not on my court!

a very good observation hatter!

i was kinda think'n along the same lines but haven't said anything yet

dom60 wrote:

ok who's getting crowned?

A couple of close friends of ours became the 26th King and Queen of AEthelmearc, which is the kingdom in the SCA which covers WV, and a large chunk (western/central) of PA and NY. Of course, it meant that another couple which are close, but not as close had to step down, but it was the end of their 6 month tenure, and they were required to do so. The next 6 months are going to be busy, and includes a very busy time as I am one of their core staff and we host the Pennsic War.

Hopefully, there will be some pictures showing up on FB soon.

Hatter... you hit part of my concern on the top of the head. Elite is our most elite player. And your point #4 is also something which is a concern. However, I will add that we need a good number of players with 3 or all 4 classes all the same level to do good comparisons. Even Elite does better with one class than another, from the data shown on gametracker, with his AM getting a long-term average score/min of 91.16, his medic 74.68, his WM (Elite_Guard) 74.5 and his Engi 69.94. Oddly, his times played are inversely proportional to his scores/min.

The computer scientist/engineer in me knows our method of comparison is far from ideal. The best way to do the comparison would be to record data at the end of each wave which included things like time played, kills/deaths by weapon, score and xp for each player, and write each game to a new file, along with the map info. This, along with a number of us having 4 nearly identical players of different classes, and a daily snapshot of how we have spent the points, with each round of tests running say a week, would be the best way to do the comparison, especially if we had a smaller set of maps during the tests.

Oh... and Hatter is pretty much dead on on #2, and I am indeed looking at pics I take at the end of every game for the F1 score page, my F3 screen to show my kills by weapon, and my L screen to show my XP. Every now and then, I will take a snap of somebody else's F3 screen (Elite's 10K game would probably have caused me to take a look at his).

he he well all of mine are at the 100 spot to maybe 111 except for my general class thats about to go to 41..no more free ghost!