SubClass Balance Issues in release 226

Brother or whomever ,that post is a bit unnecessary keep your bickering to a minimum and out of the forums please.
Your moving closer and closer to Banned territory , yes Trooper can be annoying

,but keep your post on topic.

as far as monsters go Medics have the right to kills as well as any class they just have to do it differently.Monster intel isn't great ,but lately neither is player intel

I still see no difference with the bases being built.Engis block doors all over the place making enemy monster movement impossible and it much harder for hunt and kill players to find monsters.Let alone run through the maze that is the "Base"

edit as far as monsters bonus damage goes I don't need it with my Regular medic to do well so a drop in % may bring it back in line

road the difference between a engi blocking a door and a monster is that the blocks (of a player conscious engi) is 1 block high, allowing movement through by jumping over. some block it ALL off and frankly I dont know why people hang out in those bases because then they cant shoot out. yea they are safe but they cant do any damage. when a monster master runs through the base, the monsters follow, running into the block. they stay there, blocking alot more door plane area than the block does. take iron diety and get a brute in the door... I dont think even a trans can get through. again, engi stuff doesnt move, changing what is blocking the path, while monsters constantly move, making anticipating where to go alot harder

EDIT: thanks road... good to know I am loved

thats not love thats pity ... LOL

jk, you know im messing around

I think what my brother is trying to say is that skaarj don't do anything the 10 other players playing the map don't. Or people thinking it's funny to shoot redeemers into a base. It's just the game, none of the proposed changes will change those specific things so it would be more prudent for you (Trooper) to simply stop whining.

As someone who can play monsters or as an engineer hybrid, I can say (lightening/defense at least) sentinels have a much longer life than monsters, not even counting the fact that you can shield them with blocks, or that they're much easier to heal (being stationary, as you say), you'll always tend to be in close vicinity etc.

2k for a level 80 is quite good, perhaps general should be nerfed. And for someone who roams all the time even as an engineer you sure complain a lot about people destroying your blocks... on bases you've don't even use...?

Anyhoo, rather than allow Trooper to embroil us in a little game of "whose subclass sucks moar", I'll just use the example of Acydeer relentlessly moaning about how monsters score more than him during a game today, while he sat in a base and did absolutely nothing for the entire map while I actually went round looking for kills, as an example to lol hard and accept that Szlat's idealistic yet merely ironic attempt at equality will go ahead regardless of how many fair points myself, Cribbage or anyone else makes.

I'm not whining... I'm providing feedback. there is a difference. and I agree scaarj do do the same as a player. so you essentially have 1 player getting the xp from 4 players worth of shooting. thats what I am saying is the problem.

I've been saying since day 1 that gen needs nerfed.

and as for sentinel healing, if you arent a sentinel specialist, the only way to heal a sentinel is your link gun, 1 at a time. a medic can heal all his pets and himself at once with a healing blast or use the rocket or flak to heal more than 1 target at a time. Killsents are also fairly difficult to heal as you have to be at a certain angle to be able to heal them. there have been times during warlord waves that my lightning sentinel died because even with staying constantly linked to it, it took more damage than I could heal. then if I want to put up a new one, its already low health, where as a monster being produced is already at standard health.

as I said... this is feedback. if they werent asking for peoples opinions on balance issues then it WOULD be whining.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

...as far as monsters bonus damage goes I don't need it with my Regular medic to do well so a drop in % may bring it back in line

That's what I thought - thanks for the feedback. An extra +100% seems too high to me - especially when Elite is suggesting that +30% extra for a WM may be too high. So capping the extra damage at 40% I think will work.

Dead_Freddo and Trooper - you are missing the point about what I am after.

I do not want you to tell me how you compare to other players.
I do not want you to tell me how other subclasses spoil your game.

What I want is for you to play all the subclasses available to your character, and tell me of those subclasses, which is the strongest and which is the weakest.

OK?

Well I tried the General Class and Im not agree with something. General has a skill to heal up to 100+ health but When there are healers that focus only on healing they lose exp from the general classes, the gen can get exp from using triple, healing, light sent, healing shield, I know they cant max those skills but still. I think they are like a class that cant be specialized in any skill, so In my opinion they should be healing only 50+ health and Shield, let the healers and Engineers do the real job of healing up to 100 and 150+.

Regarding Turret specialists.

They are really good with the Ion turret but gets too easy to kill with it that sometimes is boring.
If it gets removed its ok, but what I think they need a damage reduction on all turrets just like the medics couse they cant dodge, hide or move from enemy fire, they die so easly in waves 11 and up even with all the armor regen/vamp maxed.

Ive been playing with the turrets and what it makes it not playable its that I need to depend from an engineer so they can spawn sentinels around me to cover me from fire, and sometimes they are not available or they prefer to put offense sentinels which is valid.

So making a class that depends too much on another class to survive makes it not playable. I mean any class can run and hide from monsters but we depend so much on def sents that we will have to be hiding in bases in higher waves.

So What I think would help them and make them more popular would be:

Defense mode: They can spawn up to 3 defense sentinels with armor regen maxed.

Offense mode: They can spawn autoguns as they do now
Both can buy defense bonus new skill* which helps to reduce damage,.

Another bug is that when im playing with minigun,ball turret some bugs or monsters get very close to me and cant shoot at them but they do damage at me, so how about making a skill that can make like a repulsion sphere just like the AM artifact that make them knockback so I can start shooting at them at a distance?

For me the most powerful turret is the minigun, I can achieve a nice score with it but I really wish that the turretball gets more handful couse has some bugs, they cant shoot nicely in close distances, its like the plasma balls start spawning under the floor, their fire traveling is slow at far distances between the monster and turret. Could they get faster I mean extremely faster just like u did with the link gun fire for engineers?
And make them smaller so they can spawn anywhere.

The general class is not as strong as people have suggested, mainly because there are not many people above level 100 with a general yet. But after you pass 100 it reaches its peak of effectiveness. Yes the class starts out strong perhaps a bit too strong, and that is why people like trooper are saying it is too powerful. But when it comes to level 100 and beyond it just isnt strong enough, it maxes out too early, even earlier than the AM, which maxed its core abilities around 125. So if anything were to happen with the General, let it become increased in strength, but increase the prerequisites in order to reach that strength. For example one of the main things that makes this class way overpowered at the BEGINNING (emphasis on beginning), is that it has the choice of being all 4 classes from the start. As a general perhaps it would be smart if there were level requirements in order to purchase skills from a different class. At level 5 you would choose the skills of 1 of the 4 classes, then at level 20 the skills of a second class become unlocked, and at 35 the skills of a 3rd class again become unlocked up until level 50, mainly to reduce the speed at which a typical general gets its power. So before saying a class is truly overpowered make sure you have the overview of how the specific class maxes out.

Dead_Freddo wrote:

This is Freddo speaking (not the bro)
Are you guys retarded or something? If you haven't noticed the server can hold up to 20 players. On Average, on times such as 7pm or 9pm British time, there are at least 10 players on. Put them on a favourite map like squader or dismemberment. You are all complaining about 3 small skaarj getting in the way? Well what about all the other players. Surely if you weren't blind you could see a skaarj coming.

Trooper- You always seem to have an answer against my bro, the thing is, you just dislike me so you criticise every comment me and my bro say. The truth is, you personally are not as skilled as me or my bro. You like to play as an engineer because it's easy and you can sit back and let your sentinels shoot. Well you realise its not all dandy for extreme monsters.
You have to direct the monsters to the kills, if you stay in a base you wont get a scrap of exp. The monsters getting in your way is a result of people camping in bases. Therefore i choose to stay away from bases resulting in good exp. I put it to you that you are purely jealous. Just because you play defensively and get bad scores doesn't mean extreme monsters are overpowered.

Szlat- I'm sure you interpret a lot of what everyone says as biased. All i ask of you is to help find a comprimise. I think the only solution is for the extreme monster class, to spread the levels over. Make the levels cost a bit more so that it is not so easy to obtain the good monsters straight away. If you nerf the damage bonus, it will ruin monsters. The only reason they stay alive is they kill before they get killed. Then the healing comes into play.
Don't listen to the engineers criticising it, I believe you should put up engineer abilities to match the rest.

This type of comments and the personal personal attacks will not be tolerated. This thread is getting hijacked and unless you want Szlat to stop his work, please get back onto the topic at hand, namely balance issues for release 226.

No other comments need to be made. If I or any other admin see hijacking attempts or personal attacks again, the offending player will be banned.

Szlat wrote:

What I want is for you to play all the subclasses available to your character, and tell me of those subclasses, which is the strongest and which is the weakest.

Szlat, I've been working through this and MM/Engi is by far the weakest of the Engi hybrids. It would be nice not to be forced into being a Monster Master. You don't really gain much except the ability to heal, but that's more like a General because the xp in it lacks (I guess because of the short xp healing level you can get). It's doable, but I think that's why you don't see many (if any) MM/Engi. If your into the pets thing, it's even worse. The best pet you can get is a gasbag (only 1) and it's pretty weak. I would think the answer there is to offer more monster pts to make the monsters available, but keep the low intelligence so they don't try as hard? Something like that.

My other feedback is on Extreme Engineer. I was excited when I was able to get Extreme Engi and was (am) still pretty disappointed in it. I don't understand it maybe. Thoughts / concerns as follows:
*Less blocks than a Sent Specialist (why would a sent specialist be able to make so many blocks? they're not a block specialist)
*Sent points are lacking by a few. You can't even make 2 auto-guns.
*Turret combos, etc. - ok, so they have more health if you've maxed out construction health. Being Extreme Engi, you get a bump in damage in turrets and vehicles. This is cool, but I don't think a map passes when I'm on as EE and pull out a bender and don't get harshed upon because of it. And I really feel for the other players, but I don't have alot of options. So to make the crowd happy, I can use a turret instead. I have the same combo on turrets as I have with normal Engi (again, more health, but that's not a huge deal when you have armor vamp). I'd love to see something like the mini turret, but maybe with two barrels or something. Same set up and works the same (zoom and all), but has a higher damage capability. The ball turret looks awesome, but it's really not functional. It has a hard time shooting up close and the aiming seems a bit off or something (It may be just because the time it takes for the projectile to reach the target). The energy turret is usually the favorite, but the zoom sucks and well, I like being able to rest my hand a bit and toggle primary fire (which works on ball and mini).
*Large barrels - why are the sent specialists the only to have these? Again... they're sent specialists... why would they have uber blocks and bigger barrels. Extreme Engineer should be able to make the most blocks and should be the only with large barrels.

As for AM/Engi and WM/Engi, both are very fun and what I've read already should help. My main issue with WM/Engi is that you can only get loaded weapons 2. A loaded weapons 3 for hybrids would be nice (would provide the ability to get positive weapons), but exclude them getting super weapons.

Lastly, why is Denial not available for either of the AM/WM hybrids?

Sorry I got long winded, but wanted to provide my feedback.
I hope you take it as positive feedback in an effort to help.

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

This type of comments and the personal personal attacks will not be tolerated. This thread is getting hijacked and unless you want Szlat to stop his work, please get back onto the topic at hand, namely balance issues for release 226.

No other comments need to be made. If I or any other admin see hijacking attempts or personal attacks again, the offending player will be banned.

Thank you Demon,and Freddo you and your brother should get different accounts/names please
I'm gonna try out the Monster Master a bit more to give a better feedback
Not having healing blast and reduced healing abilities does shorten monster life expectancy in my ecperience

Acyd wrote:

Sorry I got long winded, but wanted to provide my feedback.
I hope you take it as positive feedback in an effort to help.

Acyd, thanks for the feedback. I need players trying all the different subclasses and telling me what is what.
You have mentioned about the hybrids being too weak, and about Extreme engineer being disappointing, but you haven't mentioned how any of the Specialists compare against the normal engineer?

I have your current games in this build as
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin NumTimesPlayed
 -------------------- --------------- --------------
 Vehicle Specialist   99              4
 Sentinel Specialist  57              246
 Extreme Engineer     50              39
 WM/Eng hybrid        37              42
 AM/Eng hybrid        35              76
 MM/Eng hybrid        32              2

(Remember I don't get all the stats)
So the 4 times you have played the Vehicle Specialist it has achieved the highest scoring rate - is that your feeling, or was it just exceptional maps?

I could also do with you playing some games as the standard Engineer class as a baseline, if that is possible?

Acyd wrote:

.... and MM/Engi is by far the weakest of the Engi hybrids. It would be nice not to be forced into being a Monster Master. You don't really gain much except the ability to heal, but that's more like a General because the xp in it lacks (I guess because of the short xp healing level you can get). It's doable, but I think that's why you don't see many (if any) MM/Engi. If your into the pets thing, it's even worse. The best pet you can get is a gasbag (only 1) and it's pretty weak. I would think the answer there is to offer more monster pts to make the monsters available, but keep the low intelligence so they don't try as hard? Something like that.

I have suggested earlier upping the Experienced Healing max level from 2 to 4. This should allow the subclass to get much more xp from healing.
Perhaps it might be better to have two versions of this subclass - Medic/Eng and MonsterMaster/Eng. Then the medic/Eng can have full Medic powers but no monster stuff, and the other variant can have more monster stuff but much more limited healing? Or do people playing this subclass just want Medic/Eng?

Acyd wrote:

My other feedback is on Extreme Engineer. I was excited when I was able to get Extreme Engi and was (am) still pretty disappointed in it. I don't understand it maybe.

See this thread. I have separated it out for discussion.

Acyd wrote:

Lastly, why is Denial not available for either of the AM/WM hybrids?

It is possible to add, but they have to lose some abilities as they become hybrids. And if you have Loaded Weapons, you don't need denial quite as much. Certainly Denial 3 and Loaded Weapons do not go. And I find Denial 2 of limited use.

Ryuxen, thanks for your suggestions on how to strengthen the Turret Specialist subclass.

However, before I strengthen it I need to know how strong it is compared to the other subclasses. I have your recent games logged as
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin NumTimesPlayed
 -------------------- --------------- --------------
 Vehicle Specialist   97              6
 Extreme Engineer     77              25
 Sentinel Specialist  67              153
 Turret Specialist    59              6
 AM/Eng hybrid        7               2
 MM/Eng hybrid        0               1

So the Turret Speciaiist is currently in the middle of the list. However, the games with the hybrids didn't get very far, so I can't draw anything from those.
The six games you have played as a Vehicle Specialist have scored much too well. Was this an exception - due to the map or other players - or is the subclass overpowered?

And how do the Extreme Engineer and Sentinel Specialist compare against a normal engineer?

Well the times I just tried turret specialist I used the Ion turret but people start complaining I was killing everything so I stopped using it couse its really overpowered same as vehicle ion cannon, So for me that turret gets too much xp and its really boring playing with, u kill so easly.

Sentinel Specialist vs Normal Engineer.

Well this two classes are similar but different in playstyle, the Engineer can spawn a good turret with a def sent in a place, spawn an offense sentinel in other place and spawn a hellbender you can be switching hellbender or turret and killing in those spots while ur sent is making kills in other spot, So you will get a nice score doing that and the sentinel specialist replaces the hellbender or turret by another offense sent, so the exp will be a little different, I will say lower couse they dont kill as fast as a turret or hellbender so I have to kill with my link gun too to achieve the same score as my normal engineer but it has a risk to be running around killing with link gun without any health/shield regen skills we only depend on adrenaline kill bonuses to use booster. The bad problem here is that Sentinel Specialist has no shield regen or healing skills so that encourages to make them stay at base.

Extreme Sentinel vs Engineer

Well both have almost the same skills and for me the extreme only misses the shield healing , they can achieve almost the same score in a map. The problem here is they are almost the same so they dont look so extreme , they misses 5 more blocks, shield healing skills. They are very similar but Idk the EE is missing something, something that makes it xtreme. lemme try both more and I will let ya know.