SubClass Balance Issues in release 226

dom60 wrote:

I guess I'll try the extreme am when I log on next and try that for a few lvls to give you some more data Szlat

Thanks

ran into a glitch....need 1 more lvl to buy eam ! LMAO

This point was buried in my (admittedly) verbose report on the WM subs, but I think it warrants at least a little discussion: Why is the Berserker subclass able to use the triple or double damage, given that it already has an enormous damage boost? While I initially made the same case for the Tank, I've changed my mind; its reduced fire rate results in an effective DPS only 15% greater than a WM with maxed Enhanced Damage Bonus, compared to the Berserker's 207% advantage at close range (using the next build's values for EDB. Currently, it's 25% for Tank and 233% for Berserker.)

And since no one has responded to your question about the planned range damage increase, here's my response: Yes, remove it. Otherwise, the difference in ranged damage between Berserker and the base class will be a mere 7% - a small price to pay for the 207% lead in close quarters, where the highest DPS weapons (link, flak) operate at peak efficiency.

I post this response is because Aeolian.
He said the EAM is overpowered but Szlat donesn't agree that.

I am sorry for my poor english that I can't join your discussion much,because it takes me too much time to read your post(My native language is Chinese).

It's just lucky to play almost same map with two AM

normal AM

EAM

I play this EAM just second times in this map, and I almost reached my highest score, it's too easy.

And the LV5 LA lightning beam and lightning bolt is overpowered(especially with DD and DD sphere) that I don't need gun to kill, it makes me boring.

I preferred AM/WM hybrid, but I haven't tested it .

*2011/07/18 update image space

Szlat wrote:

Berserker - perhaps I should remove the planned increase since it seems the most powerful WM subclass already? Comments anyone please?

I don't have a problem with the planned long-range increase being kept as is. It is true that the berserker does feel a little overly disproportionately weak at long distance, and such a small increase of 1% / level is not likely to have a big impact on XP scored either way anyway, rather just add a little more freedom to the way you can play the class. XP scores may even drop as people feel less compelled to take advantage of the big short-range damage bonus it has.

I played Hangar with vanilla WM, and I scored lower than I did when I played Berserker on that map a few weeks ago - and I had much milder competition this time for kills. This, plus what I've seen from Desert and Flak, seems to indicate Berserker is quite capable of competing in long-range maps as is.

Locrian wrote:

I played Hangar with vanilla WM, and I scored lower than I did when I played Berserker on that map a few weeks ago - and I had much milder competition this time for kills. This, plus what I've seen from Desert and Flak, seems to indicate Berserker is quite capable of competing in long-range maps as is.

And I'll bet you didn't actually fire your weapon long-range often with Berserker.

Dead_Freddo wrote:

And I'll bet you didn't actually fire your weapon long-range often with Berserker.

Of course I didn't; Berserker is meant for close-range combat anyway. The last thing I want to do when playing the subclass is fight monsters that do 4x damage to me, so I use my trans and quickfoot 5 to close the distance. The point is, Berserker can compete in long-ranged maps just fine. If someone feels they can't do it, they aren't playing the class properly, much like anyone who plays EAM and still uses conventional weapons instead of only using artifacts.

Locrian wrote:

Dead_Freddo wrote:

And I'll bet you didn't actually fire your weapon long-range often with Berserker.

Of course I didn't; Berserker is meant for close-range combat anyway. The last thing I want to do when playing the subclass is fight monsters that do 4x damage to me, so I use my trans and quickfoot 5 to close the distance. The point is, Berserker can compete in long-ranged maps just fine. If someone feels they can't do it, they aren't playing the class properly, much like anyone who plays EAM and still uses conventional weapons instead of only using artifacts.

Hmmm, maybe that's where I went wrong..................

Since things have been quiet here, I felt it necessary to once again rock the boat.

Concerning the Advanced Damage bonus increase planned for next build: I don't think it's a good idea. I went on an Extreme WM stint for a while and recently started playing vanilla WM again, and I've noticed my scores are generally much lower and have greater variation, even when I use the rod (which, let's face it, is the only advantage the base class has over EWM.) This basically means that Extreme WM is more powerful than the base class and, thus, is unbalanced, and the increase planned for ADB will make both stronger instead of just the base class (which is what is needed.)

Something needs to be done to knock the EWM down to the base class's level, or the imbalance will continue next build. At the moment, getting all maxed weapons and increased vampirism is too good. What's the cost of playing EWM? Not being able to use the rod and losing regen/denial? Considering you have a maximum-potential weapon set every spawn, denial isn't missed much (whatever weapon you get, you know it's going to be a good one), vamp 15 heals far faster and more reliably than regen 5 ever did, and the rod has far too much variance involved for it to be considered an asset - you're not guaranteed one every game, and it's only useful in certain situations on certain maps. But getting maxed weapons every spawn? That's a huge - and consistent - advantage.

For instance, I did some research and calculations and based on Dracos' quote in another thread, I discovered that (according to Druid200 values) the most common magic weapon is Damage with a chance of 11.4% to appear for a given weapon in a WM's arsenal. Since the modifier values are 1 - 4, one has a further 25% chance of getting a +1, +2, +3, or +4. So the chance of a normal WM getting a +4 - which has a significant improvement in damage over a +1 - is 2.85%. Thus the most common magic weapon is also one of the most powerful, and while EWM's have a chance of 11.4% to get a +4, normal WM's have only a 2.85% chance. Considering how rare AM's are these days, that's not a difference to dismiss lightly.

Note: I did similar calculations for all weapon effects, and if I had the time and inclination, I'm sure I'd be able to work out how they could correlate to an overall damage boost to the EWM. The point is, this makes a big difference in combat, and my experiences with both WM and EWM is strong evidence of that.

In summary, EWM is unbalanced and the Advanced Damage Bonus increase planned will exacerbate the issue, rather than putting the base class on the same level as all other subclasses. EWM is already quite powerful as is, and IMO does not need any more boosts. There has to be a way to up the base class without also making the Extreme even more devastating. And before there's any mention of "but what about Berserker and Tank?"... yeah, I still think those two are overpowered, but EWM hasn't received much attention in balance talks yet, so someone has to speak up about it.

The EWM is not unbalanced whatsoever, IMHO.
My scores on average have not increased very much, but have become more consistent
but over the years I have learned to use a variation of weapons with varied magical effects to great effect (Sturdy or Force RL love 'em)
I have probably played the class more than anyone, the biggest misconception is a "maxed" weapon set
ya maxed protection,sturdy,vamp(which at my level is pointless), when your lucky enough to get pierce,or vanilla in your favorite weapon there is a still a chance to lose it ,which inevitably will be in the later waves. then you hope you get something decent on your spawn
I have avoided suiciding with my EWM to get a new weapon set,on purpose to try to get a mwm and cook up a good weapon or two
which results in much wasted adren on infin flaks

(but you know how I am with my AM vorpal,piercing or it gets chucked)

in regards to a boost in Damage Bonus for the EWM ,I don't think it is necessary if we are reigning in the berserker a bit.

The real power in the EWM is if you can cater your style to your more powerful weapons you are guaranteed to score well ,not necessarily better
I have had a few blips up in my scores with the EWM (before last patch),but Vorp11 shock,Pierce7 Flak... can do that on some of my fave maps

P.S good to see someone is taking a passion in this server still Loc

A few quick points...

1. Yes, you have played EWM more than anyone, but when was the last time you played the base class, so you have the perspective to see how the two compare? This is not intended to be critical or inflammatory in any way; it's an honest question.

2. Speaking of scores, I've scored 3k+ probably around 4 or 5 times with EWM (lost count, actually) and I typically had mediocre weapon sets. I've only broken the 3k barrier once with the base class, and I haven't come close since. The fact that EWM gets maxed weapons at the start is a big deal - in terms of sheer DPS, a sturdy flak +4 is far superior to a null flak +1, particularly when there's never any AM's on.

3. Berserkers aren't being reigned in... no, I don't understand why, given all the evidence presented so far, but that dead horse has been beaten enough already. Does that, however, justify giving EWM's a boost when, as far as I can tell (based on you, Elite, Ryoxei, me, ANYONE I've seen play EWM so far), they seem to be doing just fine (even better than the base class in my case) as is?

4. Thanks for the kind words. Just trying to keep discussion about this alive, since I've seen a big influx of new players over the past few weeks who are as into playing here as I was and still am. It would be a mistake to stop the balancing dialog now; regardless of how many high-profile players have moved on, this stuff still matters to a lot of people.

I'm agreeing with you on the no need for damage boost
My impression was that the EWM was supposed to do better than the plain WM

being as it is only available at much higher a level
as memory serves me my scores have increased on average say~500pts much of that comes from not being forced to search out MWMs or AMs (lack of AMs well points finger at Engis)
compounding that issue is that there are very few WMs on at all so sharing weapons isn't as common as it used to be (which is truly sad it really brings players together sharing does)
Unfortunately with the L-Rod nerf (v3 I believe,but I won't start on that old vicious road) the only real advantage WM had over EWM is gone
but again my thought is that the EWM should be better than the regular WM

which is what all the sub-classes are supposed to do as I seem to remember was to "enhance" the Wm class. and I have only been playing my AM but admittedly I have not been on much...dam backyard monsters and frontierville on facebook!

Given how long build 226 has been around with no updates or changes, I can see how some would arrive at the conclusion that this is how things are "meant to be." That is not, however, what Szlat has been proposing ever since he started conceptualizing the subclasses.

From the thread, "Subclasses" on 09/05/2009: http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/60/4315.page

Szlat wrote:

This may of course change before it gets released, but the current principle of subclasses is as follows
...

The subclasses will be balanced. They will not be more powerful than the existing class configurations - just different. You will not get all of an existing class and more besides - that would be too powerful and hence unbalanced.

From "Subclass Balance Issues in release 226" on 08/18/2010: http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/4847.page

Szlat wrote:

All the subclasses should be about the same power. That means with the maxed class I should score about the same xp for a WM, AM, hybrid, Specialist or Extreme. Some will be easier to survive, some will have more killing power, some will require roaming round the map, others may be more support rather than killing - there should be variety but the same xp on average.
...
Balancing is not easy, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. And that means some of our favourite subclasses may get weaker.

But at heart, don't all of us want a level playing field?