SubClass Balance Issues in release 226

Part of the problem though is that the high level players tend not to play the base class. For example, Desert Wrath almost exclusively plays Berserker - which means from his scores Berserker will score higher.

Also, some classes like Vehicle Specialist are in the top 20, but it has only been played 32 times. If it had been played 20 times as much, like some of the subclasses....

And I don't mind Extreme Medic being top - unless it is from a bot exploit. Since Extreme Medics get their high score from helping others, then it is good for team game play.

And apologies if any scores are missing. I know the list isn't complete - certain logs don't get to me, so I haven't until recently published a high score table as I didn't want to get into the missing scores row. The table is just meant to give a rough idea of the balance. So if I have a score then it happened, if I don't have a score it doesn't mean it didn't occur.

No doubt the statistics are skewed due to too few or too many instances, or people not playing all classes evenly. The only fair way to judge is by having each person, as you say, play all subs available to them and provide feedback, which sadly hasn't happened all that much. I'd like to help out with providing more feedback and data, so once I get adjusted to using ranged weapons with WM and start getting consistent scores, I'll do the same thing for its subclasses that I did with EAM (sorry, Desert

). Ditto for my Eng once I get him up to 150.

And I wasn't really complaining about my score missing, just pointing it out. I've said many times in game that my EAM scores don't count, anyway, so it's not a loss.

Locrian wrote:

No doubt the statistics are skewed due to too few or too many instances, or people not playing all classes evenly. The only fair way to judge is by having each person, as you say, play all subs available to them and provide feedback, which sadly hasn't happened all that much. I'd like to help out with providing more feedback and data, so once I get adjusted to using ranged weapons with WM and start getting consistent scores, I'll do the same thing for its subclasses that I did with EAM (sorry, Desert ). Ditto for my Eng once I get him up to 150.

And I wasn't really complaining about my score missing, just pointing it out. I've said many times in game that my EAM scores don't count, anyway, so it's not a loss.

To tick everyone off, eliminate all subclasses. End of complaints and useless discussion along with backbiting and getting personal with each other. 5 classes.

Then there would be no fun in that Demon

, and the forums would be dead

... anyways I have an idea to provide accurate feedback. The maps that have been the most promising for me are Hall of Anubis and Mako, Demon if you could use your admin privileges to reset the map a few times on a specific map when I play, in order for me to play each individual character and provide accurate scores of each subclass. This would help Szlat with his statistics. Would that be okay? The only problem is I don't know when I can play again since I am now quite busy. But I'll provide unbiased feedback since all of my 4 characters are maxed out and since there is only 1 person testing, there should be no worry about skill involved, so that variable can be eliminated all together.

Elite its not skill, Your just a freak of nature!

good to see your still around bud!

Haha Dom... Well I try to be around when I can

Elite wrote:

Then there would be no fun in that Demon , and the forums would be dead ... anyways I have an idea to provide accurate feedback. The maps that has been the most promising for me are Hall of Anubis and Mako, Demon if you could use your admin privileges to reset the map a few times on a specific map when I play, in order for me to play each individual character and provide accurate scores of each subclass. This would help Szlat with his statistics. Would that be okay? The only problem is I don't know when I can play again since I am now quite busy. But I'll provide unbiased feedback since all of my 4 characters are maxed out and since there is only 1 person testing, there should be no worry about skill involved, so that variable can be eliminated all together.

We can try but we need to consider other players as well, but you forgot your general--it's not maxed as yet

I was just considering the 4 base classes and their subclasses, I haven't heard too many complaints on the general on this thread as of late.

Only problem with the "Elite trials" idea is finding low level players crazy enough to play with Elite 15 times in a row.

On a separate note:

Szlat wrote:

And I don't mind Extreme Medic being top - unless it is from a bot exploit.

Freddo's scores over 10k XP were made when he was the only one on, healing bots - would that be considered a bot exploit? If so, can we just reduce the min number of players on the server from 4 to, say, 2 or 3? Bots don't do anything to enhance gameplay anyway; they just get in the way of higher level players and take XP from lower level players. This would probably be easier than making changes to Extreme Medic class, and wouldn't have any impact on EM's in "normal" play. I'm sure this is one of those "it's up to Dru" deals, but just to throw it out there...

I've played around with the WM subclasses since my WM, Locrian, hit level 180 a couple weeks ago. The goal was to play at least 10 games with Berserker, Tank, Skilled Weapons, EWM, and vanilla WM, but I lost track of how many times I've played each due to my terrible memory. So I just played a bunch and hoped that I reached the quota with each. How do the XP/min figures compare?

Some commentary on each:

Berserker. Not quite as overpowered as EAM, since it has a tangible consequence to its additional power, but still feels overpowered. I scored higher on Hangar with it than I ever did with vanilla WM, so that says something. The additional damage taken doesn't seem to completely balance out the massive damage increase at close range, particularly if I can get a globe. And why is this class and Tank allowed to use the triple damage? Not even the EAM's sphere/beam killed titans as fast as a Berserker running berserk and triple at the same time (a tactic I routinely use with AM and other WM subs.) Also, I don't agree with the increased ranged damage for berserker that's included in the next build - I never fight at distance if I can help it, and I score fine (Flak_Monkey and Desert seem to do just peachy on large maps, as well). Besides, I thought Berserkers were supposed to be weak at distance? If anything, this subclass should be weakened next build, not made even stronger.

Tank. Feels much more balanced than Berserker, since fire speed is reduced as damage is increased, meaning other players have a better chance of getting the kill shot on tougher monsters, so the XP is shared more evenly. Still feels like I'm scoring higher with this class than normal WM, and I still don't see why it's allowed to pick up the triple damage. I already am scoring too high (IMO) without using the triple on a regular basis.

Skilled Weapons. I'm really missing Loaded Weapons 5 with this subclass, particularly when getting a magic weapon is the only way to do some damage when I'm the last player left now. But it's otherwise very balanced in that it has the potential to achieve great power, but only for one or two weapons a game, and only if you start early enough to get sufficient kills. You have to work for your damage bonus, unlike Tank and Berserker, and I think that's really cool.

EWM. As someone who barely uses the lightning rod, there's simply no reason why I won't stick with this subclass from now on. All maxed weapons mean your damage potential is at its peak from the beginning, so if I'm scoring higher with this class than regular WM, I won't be surprised. I haven't been able to purchase Vamp 11 or higher yet, so level 10 is the highest I've used so far. Considering AM's are so rare these days, LW 6 alone is worth buying this subclass.

Of these subclasses, the only ones I haven't been able to break 3k (score, not XP) with are Skilled Weapons and vanilla WM. My XP high I think was 7.9k with berserker (higher than my EAM record); not sure if I even exceeded 5k with the others yet. In closing, I don't think the extremes of berserker and tank balance out their benefits, though they at least have some downsides unlike EAM (which, IMO, has no consequences for its power.) But I can't make any strong statements without seeing the XP/min figures, as I do have short term memory issues and may not remember things exactly as they occurred.

Thanks for doing some testing Locrian.
Results I have logged for Locrian (Invasion, Level >= 180, duration > 10mins) are as follows:
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin NumTimesPlayed MaxXP
 -------------------- --------------- -------------- -----------
 Berserker            110             29             7936
 Tank                 96              20             4923
 Extreme WM           92              19             4790
 WM/MM hybrid         90              1              2820
 Skilled Weapons      84              17             4281
 WeaponMaster         84              27             4804

and for reference SuperLocrian:
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin NumTimesPlayed MaxXP
 -------------------- --------------- -------------- -----------
 Extreme AM           127             57             7457
 AM/WM hybrid         86              1              2407
 AdrenalineMaster     74              133            5376
 AM/MM hybrid         59              10             4372

Thanks for the data; the numbers seem to reflect how I perceived each class while testing.

Is this, combined with the figures on the first page and my comments, enough proof that Berserker, Tank, and Extreme AM are overpowered in their current states? And are the changes you've submitted in

this thread permanent? Because, once more, I don't think that Berserker needs to be any stronger than it already is. This, of course, is just my opinion, and hopefully other players will weigh in soon.

I would like more feedback from others - everyone has their own playing style, which can favour certain subclasses.

As far as Tank is concerned, I am not sure any changes are required. In the next build the enhanced damage that WM/EWM have gets increased, which should draw them closer to the Tank.

Berserker - perhaps I should remove the planned increase since it seems the most powerful WM subclass already? Comments anyone please?

I am still not sure about what to do about the EAM. Yes it is more powerful than the other AM subclasses. But looking at the top 20 scores, there isn't an EAM in there. And looking at the max xp scores regardless of level, the EAM is 6th, with a 2 WM subclasses, 2 Medic subclasses and 1 engineer subclass above it. Those WM subclasses are not getting nerfed, and neither is the Emedic. Perhaps the other AM subclasses need increasing rather than the EAM decreasing? Or perhaps both increase the other AMs and nerf the EAM? Not sure - comments people please?

One last post, then I'll shut up for a bit and let other people get their word in.

If you update the stats, you'll probably find EAM back in the top 20 - I just scored 11k XP on SpaceNoxx. I also did a game in Tutorial where I made 8.4k XP by wave 15 before it crashed. These were done using the EAM at "full capacity" - energy shield 3, sphere/beam and even sphere/rod on SpaceNoxx (surprising, since I typically toss the rod upon spawning.) This illustrates the point I made in the Balancing EAM thread: the only reason this subclass hasn't received much press is because barely anyone plays it.

I don't think the base AM class needs any boosting; it's powerful as is. AM/WM scores fine according to the stats on the first page, I've seen Rapier get absolutely insane scores with AM/Eng, and AM/MM is already getting fixed in the next build. So, IMO, it's not a matter of the other AM subs being weak, it's a matter of EAM simply being too powerful. In general I don't think it's a good idea to scale up the base class to match a subclass. The thing about subs like tank, berserker and EAM is that they make the server seem too easy - I'd much rather see those subclasses get pulled back a bit to be more in line with how the base classes score, not vice versa. That way, the server remains a satisfying challenge.

Just my $0.02. Shutting up now.

I guess I'll try the extreme am when I log on next and try that for a few lvls to give you some more data Szlat