SubClass Balance Issues in release 226

Ive seen quite some different views on the subclasses and classes in general currently being discussed. As being one of the veteran players on this server, I guess I may comment on a few things. And might I begin by stating mere squabbles are futile when arguing points, and therefore are discouraged. Please leave personal sentiments out.

First off, why is the WM getting bumped up for advanced damage bonus? It is now 3% per level? Is it underscoring that bad? Or perhaps is it that other classes are stealing kills from it? Before, the advanced damage bonus was limited to 1% per level, then 1.5%, it then increased to 2% and now it has jumped up to 3%?... Is it necessary? My highest score as a WM was 4.7k when it was still 1%, can you imagine now in the next build when its 3%? Perhaps a better alternative would be to increase the advanced damage bonus on subclasses that actually require it, and not on the original class itself.

Secondly I couldn't help but notice the monster subclass being tweaked down( aka nerfed) for its excess power in pets as some view it. And then on another note, the sentinel specialist is also being tweaked down. My theory would be these are the subclasses being played the most.

And lastly, most people hate losing power once it has been given, and since the advent of most of these subclasses, a lot of imbalances have been taking place. Why not simply increase monster difficulty as many people have suggested. The players will keep their power but will face adversaries much stronger to suit their level of power.

Elite wrote:

And lastly, most people hate losing power once it has been given, and since the advent of most of these subclasses, a lot of imbalances have been taking place. Why not simply increase monster difficulty as many people have suggested. The players will keep their power but will face adversaries much stronger to suit their level of power.

+1

Ryuxen wrote:

Elite wrote:

And lastly, most people hate losing power once it has been given, and since the advent of most of these subclasses, a lot of imbalances have been taking place. Why not simply increase monster difficulty as many people have suggested. The players will keep their power but will face adversaries much stronger to suit their level of power.

+1

OK! which one of you TWO want TAR and FEATHERING first????

and who goes 1st on the rail???

Elite wrote:

Please leave personal sentiments out.

I agree wholeheartedly. And I will not bother to finish reading any post that does contain personal attacks. That is for the Admins to deal with.

Elite wrote:

First off, why is the WM getting bumped up for advanced damage bonus? It is now 3% per level? Is it underscoring that bad?

I believe so yes. As far as WM classes go, the Berserker and Extreme WM are I think pretty much ok now, but I think WMs are doing much worse.

Elite wrote:

Secondly I couldn't help but notice the monster subclass being tweaked down( aka nerfed) for its excess power in pets as some view it. And then on another note, the sentinel specialist is also being tweaked down. My theory would be these are the subclasses being played the most.

The Sentinel Specialist isn't getting nerfed, just adjusted. The 2 subclasses are played most, apart from the original classes. But that isn't why I am adjusting them. I am adjusting them for 2 reasons. The first is I want to generally move the power away from "unaimed" things doing the killing on behalf of the player - e.g. pets and sentinels. But the nerf to Extreme Monsters is because it is scoring too high. For all the people playing as M/MM, all those that have played the Extreme Monsters subclass get their highest scoring rate in that subclass. (with the occasional exception of Extreme Medic). So this isn't comparing one player against another player. This is comparing each player against themself. I will give two examples.
Code:

 cribbage             AverageXPPerMin
 -------------------- ---------------
 Extreme Monsters     137
 MonsterMaster        113
 Extreme Medic        54
 
 Dead_Freddo          AverageXPPerMin
 -------------------- ---------------
 Extreme Medic        82
 Extreme Monsters     80
 MonsterMaster        58
 MM/Eng hybrid        38
 WM/MM hybrid         30

Look, I have repeatedly said that I need help balancing the subclasses. I need those with access to subclasses to play all the subclasses available to them (at least 10 games on each), and afterwards tell me which subclasses were the weakest and which were the strongest. And if all tend to agree that subclass A is too strong and B is too weak, then we can adjust it accordingly.

You Elite are one of the few who have tried to help recommend how things need changing to balance them - in terms of this subclass needs a but more, and this one is a bit too strong try taking down this skill. And I listened, and followed a lot of what you suggested.

However, all too often I am left with a feeling that people have found a subclass that they score well at, and don't want it changed. And not admit that the real reason they like it is actually down to it being overpowered.

So, I throw the question back to you - why do you think the Extreme Monsters and Sentinel Specialist are the most popular?
And as a follow-on, is this really the way we want the server to go?

Elite wrote:

...Why not simply increase monster difficulty as many people have suggested. The players will keep their power but will face adversaries much stronger to suit their level of power.

To increase the monster difficulty makes it more difficult for the low levels.

But can you see a hole in the argument "my subclass is balanced correctly so don't nerf it, but now I am playing this subclass it is too easy - can you up the monster difficulty"?
If the subclasses are not overpowered, there should be no need to increase the difficulty.

Trooper wrote:

I get more kills with my link than I do with sentinals even running a "kill sent" the entire map. I also never said anything about my kills compared with yours. engineer constructions are also built up over time so that point is not valid.

Comparing your link gun with ONE kill sent isn't a fair comparison. Have you ever seen Ryuxen put up TWO kill sents (assuming kill sent is the fast-shooting laser type) and a base, they dominate a map in a way that my 3 skaarj never could.

I don't see why you have such a problem with the 3 skaarj anyway, they tend to do nothing but shadow me the whole time, in practise merely finishing off and claiming kills I've already done most of the work on with my rocket launcher. Might further explain the so-called "skew" in kills ratios; they certainly don't kill hog an entire map the way sentinals can.

Szlat wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly. And I will not bother to finish reading any post that does contain personal attacks. That is for the Admins to deal with.

I didn't attack anyone bar replying to Trooper's digs.(?)

Like I said before, you're basing your stats on myself and cribbage, and what reliable assumptions can you make from those "stats"? Is medic underpowered for him and overpowered for me? My medic scores arn't an "occasional exception", they're an average

And with regards to the others, I don't know about Cribbage but when I play hard I choose monsters because that's the most fun for my attacking style, if I'm feeling lazy or experimental I may choose engineer so I can sit back and let others use my turrets while I don't myself don't earn a lot. It's your attitude during the game, not subclass that determines your points earned. I can easily earn a lot of engineer points by simply sitting in a hellbender in a busy spot for the entire map if I wish, but if I was going to do that I'd pull out some skaarj instead because it's more fun... the stats are misleading.

If you want my honest feedback, engineers need more ways of gaining XP through methods you wish them to use (XP for every enemy bullet your defense sentinel knocks down, a tiny share of the XP earned by other players using your turrets - manual requirement even if only by a third party), and less damage done by the kill sentinel. WM does need some extra power, though maybe that's just because I've only played it once or twice and subsequently never had time to perfect it.

to answer your counter arguments:

scaarj do attack and kill on their own, not just follow you around.

kill sents dont dominate THAT much... imo 1 scaarj that isnt dying does more than 1 kill sent. also I put up 1 because I am not a sentinel specialist.

my problems with pets? they get in the way. I try to move across the map and literally run into 3 pets, slowing my movement, making me arrive too late to work on the kill. the mass fire of 3 skaarj does alot of damage and blinds players because you cant see through the projectiles. I have been killed by a rock I couldnt see through the wall of scaarj shots. sentinel shots are unobtrusive and they dont move to block paths. sentinels also dont block a door when they try to follow an owner into a base and get stuck on a block. sentinels dont move, changing your clear line of fire into a blocked one. sentinels dont hit players with their unsuccessful attacks and fling them across the map

Szlat The changes to the Sentinel Specialist are only reducing their health or their fire power too?

Just wondering couse the Sents Firepower to me seems ok, they take sometime killing a monster while with a flak cannon or beam or fireball u take down the monster faster.

Trooper wrote:

t

my problems with pets? they get in the way.

and the multitude of blocks ,vehicles, turrets don't ?

but those (with the exception of vehicles) dont move. pets move and block what was clear a sec ago

As an owner of a Xtreme AM I have some serious problems with the pets getting in the way, when I start spam shooting fireballs at monsters suddendly the pets appear near and infront of me and they block my fireball resulting a big damage for myself. Ive seen in other invasion servers that they have a mutator that all players and pets become like ghosts, you can shoot anything through them and they dont block it same with pets.

Ryuxen wrote:

Szlat The changes to the Sentinel Specialist are only reducing their health or their fire power too?

Just wondering couse the Sents Firepower to me seems ok, they take sometime killing a monster while with a flak cannon or beam or fireball u take down the monster faster.

Health of the two offensive sentinels down. Damage and range of the Autoguns up.

Szlat wrote:

Health of the two offensive sentinels down. Damage and range of the Autoguns up.

Ahhhh ok!!!! I like that change, Cant wait to use autoguns!!! They will be awesome. One question Szlat If I use them with my turret specialist the autoguns will get damage and range up too??

Ryuxen wrote:

One question Szlat If I use them with my turret specialist the autoguns will get damage and range up too??

Yes.

This is Freddo speaking (not the bro)
Are you guys retarded or something? If you haven't noticed the server can hold up to 20 players. On Average, on times such as 7pm or 9pm British time, there are at least 10 players on. Put them on a favourite map like squader or dismemberment. You are all complaining about 3 small skaarj getting in the way? Well what about all the other players. Surely if you weren't blind you could see a skaarj coming.

Trooper- You always seem to have an answer against my bro, the thing is, you just dislike me so you criticise every comment me and my bro say. The truth is, you personally are not as skilled as me or my bro. You like to play as an engineer because it's easy and you can sit back and let your sentinels shoot. Well you realise its not all dandy for extreme monsters.
You have to direct the monsters to the kills, if you stay in a base you wont get a scrap of exp. The monsters getting in your way is a result of people camping in bases. Therefore i choose to stay away from bases resulting in good exp. I put it to you that you are purely jealous. Just because you play defensively and get bad scores doesn't mean extreme monsters are overpowered.

Szlat- I'm sure you interpret a lot of what everyone says as biased. All i ask of you is to help find a comprimise. I think the only solution is for the extreme monster class, to spread the levels over. Make the levels cost a bit more so that it is not so easy to obtain the good monsters straight away. If you nerf the damage bonus, it will ruin monsters. The only reason they stay alive is they kill before they get killed. Then the healing comes into play.
Don't listen to the engineers criticising it, I believe you should put up engineer abilities to match the rest.

whats with the flaming..... yesh....

I stay away from the base on all chars... even my engi. my general is level 80 and scores in 2k often, staying out in the muck even on wave 12. I get far more kills with my link than my sentinel. I am in the thick of it all the time. your comments regarding my skill level are baseless and I have no reason to be jealous of your skill. I also have a medic that can use monsters and you know that you dont have to direct your monsters. thats your choice to do that

as for the monsters getting in the way as opposed to players, players are intelligent, pets are not. players can see whats going on and make a decision to move out of the way while a monster is oblivious