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TheDruidXpawX

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Szlat wrote:
Because of vampire, LWs can fight more 'up close', and live longer without having to run away. And so get more xp. But that cannot really be counted as helping the others to stay alive. 


I disagree. When they're in the face of the monster, they're more likely to take the brunt of the attack while the LA player can stay back and tackle specific targets

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Szlat wrote:


Because of vampire, LWs can fight more 'up close', and live longer without having to run away. And so get more xp.

Sorry, getting a bit off thread here 


Vortex mentioned in another thread that on other servers with different stat caps, the LA players kill the LW players. I found that hard to believe until players like Ooo and Soupman and a few others developed the LA offensive strategies a little more. Just like you, I always considered the LA class a "take one for the team" class. LA players can hang just as well as LW players, in some situations, far better. The only time I've seen LA players at a deep disadvantage is on the really small maps.

I think Druid already knows all this - I'm only pointing it out because if something is done for the sake of balance, it should truly balance, not give one class or another an advantage.
v0rTeX

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When I said front line I didnt mean literally able to hide behind LW players. I meant more in the sense Druid mentioned. The LW can run around wherever needed and go toe-to-toe with monsters taking the focus off the LA players who can be busy making guns.

And on our server, LA players do much better than LW players when they reach a high enough level. The reason is several factors of our server are different than DC

-Much higher stat caps
-Waves with monsters worth far more points than 15 (especially high waves)
-a few super magic weapons that would likely be 'too powerful' for DC standards

Using these factors, a LA player can (on some wave) activate the globe and the triple damage and run amok killing everything in sight and keep their adrenaline almost maxed out and certainly high enough to survive the waves that are too much for a player with vampirism and a good weapon to make it through.

This may sound a bit insane but its not always like that. Just once you get past level 250 on our server you wont survive alone without a globe.
Spacey

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Szlat wrote:
Also, it seems to me that if the only thing good about being a LA is being able to max weapons, then it's a bit of a lame class. The MaxModifier ability alone won't compensate for lack of Vampire.

However, if this goes ahead it will leave LAs even further disadvantaged to LW players, in that they will have to spend 150 times 3 adrenaline to get their best three weapons maxed - which will be a delay the LWs don't have.

So, we would need to think of something extra to give to higher level LAs to compensate.

I think one thing that would help LAs is more adrenaline. More adrenaline would make them be able to triple/globe/double a lot more freqently, which would make them a lot more powerful. At the risk of going off thread, if the Adrenaline Drip had a couple of extra levels, and still granted adrenaline during a combo/artifact use, then that would definitely compensate the LAs for the LW6. 


Only 450 adren?? What about the adren spent trying to get something more than a penetrating +1, a protection +1 or yet another piercing weapon. Seriously, I have had games where I have spent wave after wave (and much more than 450 adren) trying to get a one or two decent weapons which were even worth maxing. And I still have to kill bugs or wait even longer to get that 100 adren to use the MWM.

And rather than give us more adren, which we have to spend points to purchase a higher max adren. and more points to get adren faster, why not make our adren last longer. But perhaps at LA3, you use adren at 75% the normal rate, and LA4 it drops to 60% and at LA5 it drops to 50%. So for example, a non LA player (or LA1/2) might use 7 adren/sec for the triple, while LW3 is roughly 5/sec, LW4 is roughly 4/sec, and LA5 is roughly 3/sec.

Another twist on LA would be to perhaps make the MWM make weapons already maxed out. Again, this might only kick in for LA4, but...

As for the idea of having even more artifacts to create the specific types of weapons...don't we have enough artifacts already.

And one last thing...why should a LW player drop just one weapon when they are killed (and can purchase denial so that they drop none), but a LA player drops all but the major special artifacts when they are killed. Sometimes, it seems like a LA player is nothing more than a pinata when they are killed, with all the other players scrambling like little kids to pick up the candy which has fallen out. IMO, either the LW players should end up dropping all their weapons when they are killed (and denial only guarentees that they respawn with their favorite weapon, and they literally drop every single weapon), or LA players should stop being the pinata.

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Spacey

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TheDruidXpawX wrote:

Szlat wrote:
Because of vampire, LWs can fight more 'up close', and live longer without having to run away. And so get more xp. But that cannot really be counted as helping the others to stay alive. 


I disagree. When they're in the face of the monster, they're more likely to take the brunt of the attack while the LA player can stay back and tackle specific targets 


Really Dru?? Really Really?? That idea just slays me. Given that the LA player has exactly the same means of gaining XP, and therefore levels, as the LW player. No different weapons (indeed, on many maps, a LA player can only get some weapons from the LW player), no artifact that is just available to the LA player which allows them to kill bugs at a distance (even the triple does not entirely fill this order), and that the monsters come after both the same, I don't see how. And it gets worse from there. The LA player must find and pick up all their weapons, come up with enough adren to use the MWM to get weapons which are worth anything, come up with more adren to max those weapons, all the while having enough adren to use for booster since there is neither regen nor vamp for them (and the medics may either not be around, or be too busy, or just decide not to heal them), etc. And this does not even begin to consider the fact that there are those folks who want weapons maxed, etc.

Don't get me wrong Dru. I find what you have done with the RPG mod to be in the PDG category. But I think that there are aspects to RPG, classes, etc., which folks either cannot see or refuse to see, and there are others which have yet to really become visible. You yourself said that you had not envisioned players getting to level 150+, and that you in retrospect, which you had not allowed those of us to switch from LW to LA as we did. And I know that there are things that I am missing. But my 30+ years of games, including RPG games from the earliest edition of D&D (Go to wikipedia, enter "Dungeons and Dragons", and look at the pic of the first D&D set... my first D&D purchase was this 3-book set, FIRST PRINTING, and I still have them in the box), through helping design and test some of the newer classes and even 5 other pretty wide spread systems, etc. tells me that in D&D terms, the LW and LA players are more like the palladin and ranger classes than the fighter and MU you seem to want them to be. And unfortunately, there are aspects where an imbalance exists. Even more so, I think it will take considerable work to clear most of this imbalance.

As I sit here, remembering all the aspects of D&D and those other RPG games, a couple of other points about all of those games come to mind:

1) At a certain point, a player reached a point where it was retired. From then on, that player became a NPC and was more legend than not, and as such were almost never seen except as trimmings on the game (e.g. they may be the source of your latest quest).

2) Mixing low level characters in a high level party was never a really good idea. The best description I heard of this sort of thing was that it was often like trying to take a youth football player and placing them in a NFL game. Sometimes, you had a pee-wee player, sometimes you had a JV player, and sometimes you had a HS varsity player, but you always had a weak spot.

The only reason that this has not been more of a problem is that the monster levels take into account the lowest players level. But it still does not solve how higher level players can dominate a game. Indeed, what we effectively have is something like a party of half a dozen 12-15 level players and half a dozen 2-4 level player, all in a dungeon intended for players around level 2 or so.

3) Regardless of how often folks would say it was silly to compare the fighter classes to the MU classes, the clerics/druids, the thieves/assassins, etc., there was always comparisons between them. Sure, we don't have the possibility of them going directly at one another, but that was rare, even in D&D. This was, in part because they were all pretty much going after the same limited set of XP.




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LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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Szlat

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Spacey wrote:
1) At a certain point, a player reached a point where it was retired. From then on, that player became a NPC and was more legend than not, and as such were almost never seen except as trimmings on the game (e.g. they may be the source of your latest quest).
 

How about making it so that a character can only exist for a year, then it can't be played any more?
Stops high level players dominating the game, because there won't be so many of them. It would mean people have to keep creating new players, which I think would be good.

Perhaps keep a high-score table. So people have a year with their character to try to get to the top of the ladder?

Gets around the problem of "what do the high level players spend their points on?".
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Szlat wrote:
How about making it so that a character can only exist for a year, then it can't be played any more?
Stops high level players dominating the game, because there won't be so many of them. It would mean people have to keep creating new players, which I think would be good.

Perhaps keep a high-score table. So people have a year with their character to try to get to the top of the ladder?

Gets around the problem of "what do the high level players spend their points on?". 


And what about people who don't play quite as often or quite as well? What if you've only got to level 50 over the course of a year? That wouldn't be at all fair. If some high-level player wants to start a new character it's thier perogative to do so but it's also thier own decision if they decide not to. I can't think of one person, high or low level, who would think it fair to have a character they've worked hard on get deleted just because of a time limit. And if high level players find it difficult to find things to spen thier points on, well, as I said, they could create a new character, or, they could just not spend the points at all if it's that much of an issue. Sure, they'd have to open up the stat window at the beginning of every game to get rid of the "you have stat points to spend" that blinks at the top of thier screen but that's not so difficult a thing you know


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v0rTeX

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How about this.

For any player that reaches a designated 'ceiling level' they have two choices.

1) Have their character deleted so they can start over

2) Druid can manually make the required experience to the next level something like 9,999,999,999,999,999 so that they are effectively stuck at that level forever. They wouldnt have to sacrifice anything they gained but they wouldnt be able to go beyond the ceiling either.

That way anyone who hasnt gotten there yet can be left alone.
crabman2

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Szlat wrote:
How about making it so that a character can only exist for a year, then it can't be played any more? 


I imagine that at level 62 you find it real comfortable to say "delete those characters!" These people have spent many hours working on that character, let the climb to level 1000 if they want, what does it matter to you? After level 150 there really isn't that much to spend your stat points on that will make their character invincible, it's more of a status thing. Perhaps they are just better players, that's why they last longer.

Gets around the problem of "what do the high level players spend their points on?". 
Let what they spend their stats on be their concern, not yours.

I'd like to hear some opinions of what level 150 players think of having their character removed.
Boingo_Babe

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Szlat wrote:

How about making it so that a character can only exist for a year, then it can't be played any more? 



Meh, I think its going to be interesting to see how high Dirty Deeds can get.

I agree with Chai. Who is going to have the incentive to play when they know their hard work is just going to be deleted in a certain amount of time?



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Boingo_Babe wrote:
Who is going to have the incentive to play when they know their hard work is just going to be deleted in a certain amount of time?



B_B 


Actually on our server we have reset everyone 4 separate times. We call them 'seasons' like a tv show has. You would be surprised that almost everyone will return.

Pros:
-Everyone is now on even ground right after the reset. All those people who were behind so far are now at the front and have a chance at being one of the highest players
-Refreshed attitude. Alot of people get bored once they get so high they cant improve their character anymore. When they get reset they suddenly spend more time playing.
-If you reset everyone periodically, then no one complains about having spent a year or more buiding one character
-For the first few weeks(at least) no one has to sit around waiting for the next 12 waves to end because the high guys take it to the end

Cons:
-You lose the level you had
-If you are the status grabbing egotistical type, you have to play alot right away to maintain your leader spot

Usually when people quit playing on our server its because of a lack of interest in the game itself, boredom of RPG invasion in general, or their real life got busier all of a sudden. Not because we reset their character.
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Boingo_Babe wrote:

Szlat wrote:

How about making it so that a character can only exist for a year, then it can't be played any more? 



Meh, I think its going to be interesting to see how high Dirty Deeds can get.

I agree with Chai. Who is going to have the incentive to play when they know their hard work is just going to be deleted in a certain amount of time?



B_B 

I'm going to agree with Boingo, if someone gets bored of a being so high then they have the option of starting over with a new class... it's up to them. I love this game and my weapons class and if I "ever" get bored then maybe I'll try out another path dru made. I don't play this game to be competetive, but to have fun after school/work, so I'd have to say that the reset is not such a great idea... and this has kind of shyed away from the loaded 6 topic... Now about the loaded 6, I like the interaction between classes so I don't think this is really needed.. the only thing I would like in the loaded weapons would be positive shield guns. This may not seem like a major upgrade, but I do like the shield gun on certain waves/levels, so if that was loaded 6 I'd certainly buy it, but other than that I think the teamwork we've got going is good
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Smokes

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The 10,000 xp limit is not very high. It should be increasing as you go, I know it will restrict the progress of levels, on dawga's server the xp progressed very well making sure that you would have to dedicate lots and lots of time to gain the elite level of gaining all the abilities. I think I was level 126 needing around 32,000xp to level on dawga before leaving there (played there for about 6-8 months), now it is hard finding a server that I can play, the monsters are just was to easy to kill on this server and all the others you can max out stats pretty easily, and it is silly having super amounts of stat caps. It takes away the aim factor when you do that and having a low stats such as this server reduces the spam greatly. So my only gripe on this server is the monsters are too easy to kill, and the monsters can't aim for anything. When was the last time you died because a skaarj sniper got a head shot on you? Or a Titan could actually aim and hit you with a rock, instead they just don't anticipate for anything. This is a great server, but if I dedicate my time like I used to, I probably would max out within 2-3 months very easily. Well, you might be seeing me play more and more on this server, that is, if there are not 20 players on. hehe, Great server Druid and keep the mods coming!
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crabman2

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Smokes wrote:
So my only gripe on this server is the monsters are too easy to kill, and the monsters can't aim for anything. if I dedicate my time like I used to, I probably would max out within 2-3 months very easily.  


So, Smokes, we'll be seeing you as a top scorer everytime you play! I'll be looking forward to it.
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loaded weapons 6 . all max weapons lol cmon now.thats crazy . low lvl players wont get a chance to lvl.. imagin the top players with all weapons maxed.. doesnt sound fun for the team only the player.. so heres my crumby idea.

Instead of Loaded weapons.... make it loaded weapon.6..

1 weapon ..from a frag house invasion...1 of the lower end frag house weapons ..like the ripper/or the rocket launcher,or sniper auto. something like that ..random pick weapon of the ones dru picks..100 points to buy.. ..

if u can make it like the redeemer ..onceout of ammo. empty .wait for the next wave for it to be used again..it'll give everyone the chance to have one.and it wont cripple the low lvls ability to advance in lvls.as much as all weapons maxed..

thus keeping the balance of players closer together .1 loaded weapon from fraghouse. makes more sense than all weapons maxed.. just a thought out of my enslaved wierd head..
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