SubClass Balance Issues

Some idea's for Engineers and other things after playing them a while for Sub classes.

Effects for Turrets and Sentinals. AKA I would like to be able to put piercing or Maybe even Vorpal or Null as additional effects on the guns. (Artifact for those? )

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Also like to see a separate Engineer/Link gun.

Primary fire - Long distance Shields/fixing.
2ndary fire - Short Distance, but a significant boost in repair.
Extreme - Possible to give things an 'additional' shield or a DR? (So just maybe those turrets could stand up to Titan rocks.

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I would like to see level 1 resupply available for all classes.

Idea about if Resupply- Why not have it do a % of their ammo instead of set amounts?

AKA Level 1 does .5% of their max ammo every tick.
Level 2 does 1%
Level 3 does 3%
Level 4 does 5% (Max)

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I would like to see a new artifact - Called - Bad Juju.
Simply this artifact takes 50 adren and would get used up in the use - BUT it would allow you to throw a negative weapon away and to get a 'plain' one.

I think for an Extreme AM the beam has only 0.25 secs between shots, and will do up to 400 damage. A titan kill for 900 health in 3 shots (no DB/DR to consider) will use 900/14 = 65 adrenaline. Surge 3 will give you 16*2.5 = 40 adrenaline back - so to keep it going you need the multikills. Or wait 12 secs between kills.

This was a huge problem the other day. Wave 6, Elite runs around with an extreme AM and began two-shotting titans with a beam. It took less than half a second for each. In itself, this wouldn't be so bad, except it was sustainable. The wave ended in record time, he scored what is in my estimation 500-600 points in that wave alone, and had over 1000 sum total. The point gap was around 100 points between him and the next player about wave 5, and about 600 points after 6. Trans was out near constantly since a weapon wasn't necessary, meaning you couldn't simply move out of his hunting zone...his zone was the entire map. This is all second-hand, of course, and hopefully you will get a post from the man himself.

I have no problem with the Extreme AM in general or with the beam artifact, but if this continues, the titan waves will be completely deprived of any sense of fair play. High-end monsters deserve to last at least a full second IMHO.

[/rant]

here';s a suggestion to fix the problem...
NERF THE HELL OUTTA HIM!!! not the class!

elite does that to any and all types of class he plays! he's just a in their face kick ass and not take names player!

The MM/AM class has no MWM ? yet it can max,and +1 weapons, I think it should be the opposite

No offense, but you can only chalk up so much to skill. Especially in a titan wave, damage potential is going to very quickly outstrip aiming in terms of points scored, since almost every player can hit a titan 95% of the time. Skill only determines the ability to use the tools given, not the balance of said tools.

Worship if you want, I maintain it's a problem. Perhaps I'll take more pains to memorize the other players next time for comparison's sake, but they weren't chumps, I'll tell you that much. I think ratar, brandi, and zog were some of the others, on AM, AM, and WM respectively.

I'll aim to provide more hard data and screenshots next time.

FogRaider(_MM) wrote:

I think for an Extreme AM the beam has only 0.25 secs between shots, and will do up to 400 damage. A titan kill for 900 health in 3 shots (no DB/DR to consider) will use 900/14 = 65 adrenaline. Surge 3 will give you 16*2.5 = 40 adrenaline back - so to keep it going you need the multikills. Or wait 12 secs between kills.

This was a huge problem the other day. Wave 6, Elite runs around with an extreme AM and began two-shotting titans with a beam. It took less than half a second for each. In itself, this wouldn't be so bad, except it was sustainable. The wave ended in record time, he scored what is in my estimation 500-600 points in that wave alone, and had over 1000 sum total. The point gap was around 100 points between him and the next player about wave 5, and about 600 points after 6. Trans was out near constantly since a weapon wasn't necessary, meaning you couldn't simply move out of his hunting zone...his zone was the entire map. This is all second-hand, of course, and hopefully you will get a post from the man himself.

I have no problem with the Extreme AM in general or with the beam artifact, but if this continues, the titan waves will be completely deprived of any sense of fair play. High-end monsters deserve to last at least a full second IMHO.

It is a question of getting the balance right, and I am not sure we are there yet. If it is a minimum of 0.25 secs between beam shots, and it takes 3 shots, then on average they will be going down in about a second, as people will tend to refire at around 0.3 secs. Off hand, I can't think of anything else that would continuously take out titans so fast - so it might be we need to limit the max damage for the beam to 250. This would slow down the kills, and also make the multi-kills more difficult.

Note however that someone with a flak+4 weapon speed 50 double damage will be doing 150*1.5*1.4*2 = 630 damage per second. Now make it berserk, and again you are taking out titans in less than a second.
And if someone has weapon proficiency, again they could be really knocking them out.
Assuming that berserking doubles the weapon speed - I can't check at the moment - a standard WM flak+4 weapon speed 50 enh damage 10 150*1.5*1.4*1.15*2 = 724 per sec - which isn't as much, but then throw in the superweapon kills and it isn't in a different ball park.
And I hate to think how fast the berserker subclass could take them out with it's quad damage!

So, it probably does need tweaking down a bit, but not a vast amount.

FogRaider(_MM) wrote:

I think for an Extreme AM the beam has only 0.25 secs between shots, and will do up to 400 damage. A titan kill for 900 health in 3 shots (no DB/DR to consider) will use 900/14 = 65 adrenaline. Surge 3 will give you 16*2.5 = 40 adrenaline back - so to keep it going you need the multikills. Or wait 12 secs between kills.

This was a huge problem the other day. Wave 6, Elite runs around with an extreme AM and began two-shotting titans with a beam. It took less than half a second for each. In itself, this wouldn't be so bad, except it was sustainable. The wave ended in record time, he scored what is in my estimation 500-600 points in that wave alone, and had over 1000 sum total. The point gap was around 100 points between him and the next player about wave 5, and about 600 points after 6. Trans was out near constantly since a weapon wasn't necessary, meaning you couldn't simply move out of his hunting zone...his zone was the entire map. This is all second-hand, of course, and hopefully you will get a post from the man himself.

I have no problem with the Extreme AM in general or with the beam artifact, but if this continues, the titan waves will be completely deprived of any sense of fair play. High-end monsters deserve to last at least a full second IMHO.

[/rant]

Well I am usually quick with the trans as I have it keybinded onto my mouse, but this is aside from the point. When I play as my AM (the original AM, not SUBCLASSES) with the triple and rod, I can easily wipe out a map much quicker and cleaner than what I can do with the beam. Yes, I'll admit the titan waves are easier due to the big target area titans give and queens as well. But if we are to change something with the beam to make this subclass weaker then something must be changed with the original AM as well as it is currently a tad stronger. As an extreme AM I find wave 6 and 14 to be the easiest and wave 10 to be the hardest. The smaller the monsters the harder it is to hit them. And viceversa, it just happens to be that the monsters which give the most points are titans and queens. On waves 15 and 16 I find it hard to stay alive since it is full of big and small monsters, which in those later waves both deal a ton of damage.

^^^

That sounds about right. Overall, the class doesn't seem to do much better or worse than the original AM, but only on certain waves.

Interval change would affect all gameplay in theory. Similarly, adren/damage ratio change would affect all play. A max damage change, however, would require going through the monster list and checking the HP of each monster to see what it affects.

I can't remember atm what the max HP for Brutes, Behemoths and Elite Mercenaries is. Giant Gasbags, Queens, Warlords and Titans may or may not be changed, however, depending on how they divide into the chosen number.

Perhaps it could even be made so that all damaging/lightning artifacts do not take DB/DR into account whatsoever, and then balanced to accomodate these changes afterwards.

@ Szlat, you must remember most weapons have a projectile flight time. Beam does not. This doesn't affect DPS so much as mobility, though.

I any case, I'm sure a solution will be found. GL, and thanks for all the hard work so far.

dom60 wrote:

NERF THE HELL OUTTA HIM!!! not the class!

LOL

It's been tried ...

Elite wrote:

FogRaider(_MM) wrote:

I think for an Extreme AM the beam has only 0.25 secs between shots, and will do up to 400 damage. A titan kill for 900 health in 3 shots (no DB/DR to consider) will use 900/14 = 65 adrenaline. Surge 3 will give you 16*2.5 = 40 adrenaline back - so to keep it going you need the multikills. Or wait 12 secs between kills.

This was a huge problem the other day. Wave 6, Elite runs around with an extreme AM and began two-shotting titans with a beam. It took less than half a second for each. In itself, this wouldn't be so bad, except it was sustainable. The wave ended in record time, he scored what is in my estimation 500-600 points in that wave alone, and had over 1000 sum total. The point gap was around 100 points between him and the next player about wave 5, and about 600 points after 6. Trans was out near constantly since a weapon wasn't necessary, meaning you couldn't simply move out of his hunting zone...his zone was the entire map. This is all second-hand, of course, and hopefully you will get a post from the man himself.

I have no problem with the Extreme AM in general or with the beam artifact, but if this continues, the titan waves will be completely deprived of any sense of fair play. High-end monsters deserve to last at least a full second IMHO.

[/rant]

Well I am usually quick with the trans as I have it keybinded onto my mouse, but this is aside from the point. When I play as my AM (the original AM, not SUBCLASSES) with the triple and rod, I can easily wipe out a map much quicker and cleaner than what I can do with the beam. Yes, I'll admit the titan waves are easier due to the big target area titans give and queens as well. But if we are to change something with the beam to make this subclass weaker then something must be changed with the original AM as well as it is currently a tad stronger. As an extreme AM I find wave 6 and 14 to be the easiest and wave 10 to be the hardest. The smaller the monsters the harder it is to hit them. And viceversa, it just happens to be that the monsters which give the most points are titans and queens. On waves 15 and 16 I find it hard to stay alive since it is full of big and small monsters, which in those later waves both deal a ton of damage.

I agree here, I score about the same with my regular AM but with completely different game play. I just think there is some "settling in" time to see how the sub classes fit in. The sub classes are an obvious change to team play and I think that makes some people uncomfortable. It really going to be a wait and see situation.

Elite wrote:

dom60 wrote:

NERF THE HELL OUTTA HIM!!! not the class!

LOL

It's been tried ...

HEHE may I suggest a timer for Elite that alows him to fire only every 10 or 15 sec for 5 secs...that should gives us other guys a fight'n chance!

Monster Medic = Monster XP

I just got done playing a map were Ton was on his monster medic. running three red scarj. Near the end of wave 16 I checked the score board and Ton had a score of 3425 and an XP of 5677 and both were still climbing.

I was on my Engineer, in a Energy Turret With one linker and running a tripple. The best I could do was 1182 926xp.

My engineer is at level 185 and I'm working hard to get to the magic 200 so I can play with some of the new toys.

I figure I lost 600 XP to the linker and didn't break a 1000 for a total of 16 waves and at the XP I earned it would take me somewhere around 9 games to level up once.

At the XP Ton was earning he would level up every 1.7 games.

What was really earking me was I was pounding away taking somewere between 15 to 20 hits to put a titan down and the scarj would pop them twice and the were gone.

I think my best game ever as an Engineer was around 3400 And that was with 5 people linking me and running a tripple.

I know that this is a work in progress, But easily leveling up in two games.

I want that, but your going to have the kick the power up of my turret's by a factor of 4, maybe 5 for me to get close.

Yes, having 3 red skaarj is too much.
As already stated elsewhere, the cost of the red skaarj is changing on the next rebuild so that the Extreme Monsters class will only be able to buy one of them.

Yeah 3 lava skaarj pets for one monster master is a Mass Exp Eater, Even my sentinels dont have a chance againts the lava skaarjs, they instakill everything with a single shot, thats why when a player summon 3 red skaarjs in the game I better log out, I know I will not get the normal Xp I used to and Ill just be wandering around

Since the lava skaarj can take out a titan in 2 hits, I think we need a lava titan added.