Latest posts for the topic "SubClass Balance Issues"

SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Now the SubClasses have become available for test purposes for players level 200 or above, there are bound to be balance issues. Can we discuss balance issues in this thread please. e.g. this subclass is too strong because... or this subclass would be better with this ability rather than this one....

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Okay so Ill start with the WM first... I did not have the chance to test out all of them only 2 Berserker: It's very well balanced, in the few first waves this character dominates... of course you have to dodge very well, once you get to wave 12 surviving becomes very hard. The rod helps out tremendously. I was thinking if this class had extra quickfoot to compensate for the extra damage taken... because I find it not only challenging but fun to try and run away from hordes when I am at low health, but then I have to realize that not everyone has a keybind for the translocator for tight situations. So other than the quickfoot the subclass is good the way it is. Tank: Fairly slow which is good, there is a bug however that I noticed. When you are frozen from a ice krall and then unfrozen your speed reverts to normal speed. I am not sure about null warlords or null queens but you might want to look into that. Also the thought of people trying to freeze themselves or null themselves with their own weapons in order to increase their speed to normal would be another glitch but I didn't test that yet. This subclass has more of a survivor role and not of a fighter. It can endure great damage, so I was thinking that if it could get another ability called shockwave. How this would work is when it double jumps and then lands it does a sort of a weak repulsion which deals a small amount of damage. This ability would be passive. Also another skill which I think should be improved is the ultima on this subclass... could the ultima be made more powerful wider radius perhaps? or detonate faster? This subclass needs a little more since it does not score as much as the other one can. Well those are my thoughts. For the Engineer I tried the 3 specialty subclasses and the extreme subclass, note I did not see much difference between the extreme and the normal engineer. Turret specialist: Fine everything seems balanced for now, except is it possible to test out the ion cannon as a turret? or is it out of the picture? Vehicle specialist: Goliath and manta run great, the only thing that limits spawning is the out of bounds message. The manta has an edge over the goliath since it is smaller and more compact it rarely gets that message as for the goliath even when I am in a huge room it seems to get it. Also no lag issues with the goliath that I noticed. Is it possible to take out the out of bounds ONLY for the vehicles though so they could be spawned unless if they don't fit. And can the ion tank also be tested? Other than that the subclass is balanced. Sentinel specialist: The 2 sentinels work fine, of course you have to run around and make sure you don't die in order for them to do their job. Didn't test out the energy wall, will do in time. And I don't know how many defense sentinels I can spawn will also test that. Other than that its balanced I did notice on all the specialists and even extreme class that when I was buying everything over all the artifacts are messed up and not in order which could screw up the keybinds of some people. So as a result you have to reenter once you've bought all the things from the subclass you wanted. So in total you have to reenter 2 times. I don't know if thats the way it was meant or not. As for the medics there needs to be some balancing issues but I am not quite sure as to what needs to be done Healer master: This class is obviously a support role as stated before, although it maxes way TOO EARLY, while on the monster master i still have quite a few more skills to buy. I think as a healer you should be able to heal people temporarily above their max. For example 450 would be either 500 or 550 idk... but it would only be subjective to this subclass. Perhaps call it another skill in order to increase the level on which it maxes out. Needs some sort of new artifacts to make it more uniqe, I am tempted to say a resurrection type but it might mess up the gameplay. Monster Master: This subclass clearly must not be able to heal itself or anyone else, maybe only its pets. The advanced damage reduction and the same damage the subclass deals (excluding the pets) is that the same of a normal medic. In other words you are playing as a normal medic without healing capabilities but with stronger pets. I think the sbuclass's pets are okay for now but not sure, but the player itself should be weaker, perhaps no advanced damage reduction on the player and absolutely no healing of oneself, make the player fragile to compensate for the strong pets. And as a add-on might I say the great thing about the engineer subclasses is that they need each other in order to survive. For example the turret specialist needs the sentinel specialist for those tough waves this goes also for the vehicle specialist. This is something that the 2 medic subclasses are missing, they don't really need each other which is the problem. As for the AM, i did not test it enough to see any changes or balancing issues. Also I did not test any hybrid subclasses. There might be other bugs that I overlooked. This is all I have for now, I won't be able to test the rest until next week :(. I hope this was helpful.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Thanks for the feedback Elite. You are really in a unique position for judging balance as you have high level players of a similar level of all classes. In fact, it might be worth you keeping a high score table for each subclass so we get an idea how it pans out? But probably use xp as the main levelling criteria rather than kills.

Elite wrote:

Berserker: ..... I was thinking if this class had extra quickfoot to compensate for the extra damage taken... because I find it not only challenging but fun to try and run away from hordes when I am at low health, but then I have to realize that not everyone has a keybind for the translocator for tight situations.

You are much better teleporting away. With the berserker damage ability, you suffer more damage the further you are away. So up close the monsters do double damage against you, but as you run away this increases to 4 times damage against you. So teleport, do not try to outrun them. However, if the quickfoot helps you dodge better, that could be a good addition.

Elite wrote:

Tank: .....It can endure great damage, so I was thinking that if it could get another ability called shockwave. How this would work is when it double jumps and then lands it does a sort of a weak repulsion which deals a small amount of damage. This ability would be passive. Also another skill which I think should be improved is the ultima on this subclass... could the ultima be made more powerful wider radius perhaps? or detonate faster? This subclass needs a little more since it does not score as much as the other one can.

Points noted. I am slightly reluctant to add more repulsion code due to the team kills generated by the repulsion artifact throwing titans onto other players, but it needs considering - perhaps just throw them up? Ultima more powerful sounds a good idea.

Elite wrote:

For the Engineer I tried the 3 specialty subclasses and the extreme subclass, note I did not see much difference between the extreme and the normal engineer.

At the moment the difference is extra construction health bonus and rapid build replacing the shield healing and regen. The extreme engineer also cannot pick up the rod, and gets +20% damage on vehicle/sentinel/turret damage with -20% damage on weapons. Long term, the extreme engineer could have a different list of spawnable items to the normal engineer.

Elite wrote:

Turret specialist: ... is it possible to test out the ion cannon as a turret? Vehicle specialist: And can the ion tank also be tested?

Nothing is out of the picture, and for the specialists we do need some extra vehicle/turrets/sentinels. Just haven't got around to it yet. We need the balance feedback to work out how powerful any additions should be.

Elite wrote:

Vehicle specialist: ... the only thing that limits spawning is the out of bounds message. ..... Is it possible to take out the out of bounds ONLY for the vehicles though so they could be spawned unless if they don't fit.

Is this the out of bounds when you are in the vehicle, or the space size check when spawning?

Elite wrote:

I did notice on all the specialists and even extreme class that when I was buying everything over all the artifacts are messed up and not in order which could screw up the keybinds of some people...... I don't know if thats the way it was meant or not.

That is the way it has always worked, If you buy a new level of any of these abilities, the new artifacts get added at the end. It is just much worse here because you are buying multiple levels much more frequently - so rather than one game every 10,000 points being affected, it is everytime you buy a subclass. I will look into it.

Elite wrote:

As for the medics there needs to be some balancing issues but I am not quite sure as to what needs to be done....

As you say, more thought is required on these. Thanks for your effort Elite.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Yes, for the beserker the extra quickfoot will help dodge better. As for the engineers yes I was referring to the out of bounds message when you are in the vehicle. I tried out the Skilled weapons subclass for the WM yesterday Skilled Weapons: This subclass needs something to show how much a certain weapon has improved as noticed by ratar on another thread. Perhaps a different layout on the weapon to see which of the weapons is twice as strong or more and should keep its original magical value... ie: like the Null Entropy Flak +2 would be Enhanced Null Entropy Flak +2 and for every hundred kill or perhaps every 200 kills with one weapon the layout and name should change, so at the next level when the weapon does 3 times as much damage it should be called like Extreme Null Entropy Flak +2. These names in the front just to show the increase in strength of the weapon and possibly a different layout for both. I was also noticing that it takes quite some time to accumulate a number of kills with one weapon, usually its between 200-300 being the max. And this is where the balancing becomes difficult if 300 is averagely the max shouldn't 300 do 3 times as much damage? right now it only does 1.5 times more damage if I am correct... and not everyone uses just 1 weapon... I used the flak since it is the easiest to kill with the best resupply available, second best to kill would be the link but the resupply is just not fast enough. And perhaps a resupply 5 for those specific weapons that require it? Also about hardcore ability, shouldn't it have a sound when people try to heal someone with that skill, in order to alert them that they are just wasting their time. For example when I played as my medic I followed sparky around looking at his bar unknowing at the time he had bought the skill. A sound that tells you every time you try to heal or shield someone that it isn't working. Just a thought.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Elite wrote:

Skilled Weapons: This subclass needs something to show how much a certain weapon has improved as noticed by ratar on another thread. Perhaps a different layout on the weapon to see which of the weapons is twice as strong or more and should keep its original magical value... ie: like the Null Entropy Flak +2 would be Enhanced Null Entropy Flak +2 and for every hundred kill or perhaps every 200 kills with one weapon the layout and name should change, so at the next level when the weapon does 3 times as much damage it should be called like Extreme Null Entropy Flak +2. These names in the front just to show the increase in strength of the weapon and possibly a different layout for both. I was also noticing that it takes quite some time to accumulate a number of kills with one weapon, usually its between 200-300 being the max. And this is where the balancing becomes difficult if 300 is averagely the max shouldn't 300 do 3 times as much damage? right now it only does 1.5 times more damage if I am correct...

I agree it ought to show that the weapon is better somehow - not sure how yet. 300 kills gives +150%, giving 2.5 times damage. Which is enough I think.

Elite wrote:

And perhaps a resupply 5 for those specific weapons that require it?

Not sure about that yet - its possible, but I am not sure - the skilled weapons doesn't mean they are firing faster.

Elite wrote:

Also about hardcore ability, shouldn't it have a sound when people try to heal someone with that skill, in order to alert them that they are just wasting their time. For example when I played as my medic I followed sparky around looking at his bar unknowing at the time he had bought the skill. A sound that tells you every time you try to heal or shield someone that it isn't working. Just a thought.

Something is needed agreed. How about removing the bar above them?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

I was checking out the Monster master class and the loaded monsters maxes out at level 17 but yet you can buy 3 more levels until level 20 which in essence is just a waste of points. It does not give any new monsters of any sort, I checked. Also I think to make things more balanced between the monster master and the healer master, the monster master should only be able to purchase loaded medic 1 not 2, I played with level 1 and the subclass did very well just like normal... what that extra level is doing is just taking away healing xp from the healer master. Another thing is, I don't think this subclass should have regeneration, its pets are excessively strong with the advanced damage bonus and all. If this small fix is done I think the subclass should be fairly balanced for now. I do realize that for the 3 specialists for the engineer they all have armor vamparism and armor regeneration... does the sentinel specialist need armor vamparism all the way up to 15? or around normal level 10?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Elite wrote:

I was checking out the Monster master class and the loaded monsters maxes out at level 17 but yet you can buy 3 more levels until level 20 which in essence is just a waste of points. It does not give any new monsters of any sort, I checked. Also I think to make things more balanced between the monster master and the healer master, the monster master should only be able to purchase loaded medic 1 not 2, I played with level 1 and the subclass did very well just like normal... what that extra level is doing is just taking away healing xp from the healer master. Another thing is, I don't think this subclass should have regeneration, its pets are excessively strong with the advanced damage bonus and all. If this small fix is done I think the subclass should be fairly balanced for now. I do realize that for the 3 specialists for the engineer they all have armor vamparism and armor regeneration... does the sentinel specialist need armor vamparism all the way up to 15? or around normal level 10?

Thanks Elite. All these sound good to me, and I will tweak for the next build.The 20 levels do not give you extra monsters at the moment, so aren't really necessary, but it may be that we add others. Perhaps the lava skaarj ought to be level 20 anyway? Are you managing to outscore 2 lava skaarj?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Dracos — GMT

Szlat wrote:

Elite wrote:

And perhaps a resupply 5 for those specific weapons that require it?
Not sure about that yet - its possible, but I am not sure - the skilled weapons doesn't mean they are firing faster.

I think the problem revolves more around the inherent issue with resupply and the faster firing weapons like the minigun and link. Even with resupply 4, it doesnt replenish nearly enough to sustain a longer use of these weapons with a maxxed out weapon speed and forget about it when combined with the Beserzk Combo. Weapons like the Flak, Rocket Launcher, etc, have near infinite ammo capabilities at Resupply 4 but the Mini and Link dont have near the same benefit as the rest. Isnt like 20 mini bullets and Link shots at Resupply 4 while Flak is at 4 Rounds. But it takes much less time to go thru 20 mini bullets then it does for 4 Flak Rounds. I think Elite is meaning that with Resupply 5, it would allow more use out of the faster ammo eating weapons.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ratar_Killer — GMT

AM/WM The first thought I had was it feels more WM than AM. But I think the sub class needs denial. Without surge or drip made weapons are even more important to save. AM/Eng Maxed out I could only biuld 1 lightning or 1 defense sentinal, not both. Extreme AM Also needs denial.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Thanks for the feedback Ratar.

Ratar_Killer wrote:

AM/WM The first thought I had was it feels more WM than AM. But I think the sub class needs denial. Without surge or drip made weapons are even more important to save.

I suppose we could add denial 2, same as the WM has. I don't think level 3 denial goes with Loaded Weapons.

Ratar_Killer wrote:

AM/Eng Maxed out I could only biuld 1 lightning or 1 defense sentinal, not both.

Only 8 points so only one sentinel yes. Two sentinels would be too powerful.

Ratar_Killer wrote:

Extreme AM Also needs denial.

I am not in favour of Denial for the Extreme AM. I thin using adrenaline maxing weapons it is a waste. The Extreme AM only does 50% damage with weapons - the idea is to use the artifacts. Stand in a room, face the doorway and beam everything that steps through. Just have to keep the multi-kills flowing. If the subclass is not powerful enough, I'd prefer to beef up the artifacts, not make it more like a WM/AM.

SubClass Balance Issues

greg11 — GMT

Last night astra was spawning barrels everywhere. He was playing a sentinel specialist. There was no construction delay so it was like an endless barrage of explosions. Besides being extremely annoying for other players, it seems like a balance issue. With low level players playing it seemed to be killing everything pretty quick. I am not a high enough level to test this, but maybe Elite can confirm it.

SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

greg11 wrote:

Last night astra was spawning barrels everywhere. He was playing a sentinel specialist. There was no construction delay so it was like an endless barrage of explosions. Besides being extremely annoying for other players, it seems like a balance issue. With low level players playing it seemed to be killing everything pretty quick.

The normal barrels are not too bad, but the larger barrels will do more damage. I would expect there to be a 2-3 sec delay between barrels, since you have to throw the translocator. Although it is a big explosion, the barrel will only give half damage to a sentinel specialist, so each large barrel will give 150 damage. Depending on how close the monsters are to the barrel, he could cause 100-200 damage - which isn't excessive in 3 secs. But the large explosions could be irritating. Suggestions?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

I will test out the barrels and see if it needs adjusting. So far I haven't tried spawning any barrels but I will, but spawning them quickly is normal due to the increase in rapid build. The rod for the beserker subclass clearly needs to be taken out it takes advantage of the surge too much creating excess adrenaline, and increasing scores. As for now I do not know about the triple, you should leave it for now and see how it works without a rod. The tank subclass is a little too slow, I think it's movement speed should be between normal speed and it's current speed. So it's not too fast and not too slow

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

Monster Master : three lava skaarj are just too many (they are killing machines) I miss healing blast but it is good that it is gone would like to be able to summon more "smaller" monsters .A small "murder" (term for flock of crows) of mantas would be cool going to test maxed retaliation and two titans to see how that works Extreme WM : Seems to be missing something but I need to play more without Elite there ;) and can still pick up the triple which is good AM/WM : defiantly needs denial 2 overall the subclasses need more space for upward expansion (with level requirements for sure) Elite was mentioning the Extreme AM is almost impossible to kill with energy shield at higher levels (was probably a huge adren drain though)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ratar_Killer — GMT

Szlat wrote:

I am not in favour of Denial for the Extreme AM. I thin using adrenaline maxing weapons it is a waste. The Extreme AM only does 50% damage with weapons - the idea is to use the artifacts. Stand in a room, face the doorway and beam everything that steps through. Just have to keep the multi-kills flowing. If the subclass is not powerful enough, I'd prefer to beef up the artifacts, not make it more like a WM/AM.

I get your point, But most AM's spend much of there time playing trying to get either a Energy or Piercing flak. then once made denial is key to keeping an AM safe and in adren. Seems to me that an extreme AM would need this feature. We could look at it another way... Eng have inf link...medics have medic artifact... how bout a energy artifact for Extreme AM's. Then I think denial wouldn't be an issue. I'd like to see feedback from Spacey on this. Elite has a high AM but completely rocks on all classes, Spacey and I are about the same skill and would feel the effects possably in the same way. Not sure how many 200+ AM are out there.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Actually I side with you on this one Ratar, yes the extreme AM needs either denial or an energy artifact and perhaps a piercing artifact... but to make things balanced you can only make one weapon either a piercing weapon or an energy weapon. And the extreme AM almost impossible to kill is okay since its score is not excessively high, it balances out in the end but then again I did have 2 retaliations maxed out which might of helped increase my survival rate. For the monster master... I agree we should be able to summon more of the same, like more than 3. As for the red skaarj why not switch monster points with the warlords... the warlords are not really that powerful to be worth 13 monster points. Perhaps if the warlords were worth 10 and the red skaarj 11 that would fix the problem since the max number of monster points are 30. The Extreme WM definitely need something more...

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

Elite wrote:

The rod for the beserker subclass clearly needs to be taken out it takes advantage of the surge too much creating excess adrenaline, and increasing scores.

Ok.

Elite wrote:

The tank subclass is a little too slow, I think it's movement speed should be between normal speed and it's current speed. So it's not too fast and not too slow

At the moment it is half speed and half damage. If we make it 3/4 speed, then it might need to take 3/4 damage as well? I was after the concept of a slow heavy powerful slugger. Is it that moving that slow just doesn't fit your playing style?

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

Monster Master : three lava skaarj are just too many (they are killing machines)

Elite wrote:

As for the red skaarj why not switch monster points with the warlords... the warlords are not really that powerful to be worth 13 monster points. Perhaps if the warlords were worth 10 and the red skaarj 11 that would fix the problem since the max number of monster points are 30.

It is nice to see something outscoring Elite :) I don't really want to change the warlords, as that affects the baance of non-subclass stuff. So perhaps the Red Skaarj get to be 15 points etc?

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

would like to be able to summon more "smaller" monsters .A small "murder" (term for flock of crows) of mantas would be cool

Elite wrote:

For the monster master... I agree we should be able to summon more of the same, like more than 3.

I didn't realise there was a limit of 3 :( I think that was put in to stop people spawning 10 pupae. I think I need input from Druid on this one. Each pet will put extra load on the server, with extra replication. It might be we have to leave it at 3.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

overall the subclasses need more space for upward expansion (with level requirements for sure)

I can easily do this by making e.g. BerserkerDamage be 40 points a level instead of 10. For each SubClass there has to be a point at which it balances with the other classes. This has to be its maximum power, otherwise we fall into the trap of SubClasses being more powerful than the original Classes - which I didn't want. But if we make it such that a Berserker has to get to be level 600 to be the same power as a level 300 WM, what's the point?

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

Elite was mentioning the Extreme AM is almost impossible to kill with energy shield at higher levels (was probably a huge adren drain though)

Is EnergyShield too powerful? However, the Extreme AM without adrenaline is dead, so if it did drain the adrenaline... So I need more feedback from you guys if it is too much or not. On the Extreme AM:

Ratar_Killer wrote:

.... most AM's spend much of there time playing trying to get either a Energy or Piercing flak. then once made denial is key to keeping an AM safe and in adren. Seems to me that an extreme AM would need this feature. We could look at it another way... Eng have inf link...medics have medic artifact... how bout a energy artifact for Extreme AM's. Then I think denial wouldn't be an issue.

Elite wrote:

Actually I side with you on this one Ratar, yes the extreme AM needs either denial or an energy artifact and perhaps a piercing artifact... but to make things balanced you can only make one weapon either a piercing weapon or an energy weapon. And the extreme AM almost impossible to kill is okay since its score is not excessively high, it balances out in the end but then again I did have 2 retaliations maxed out which might of helped increase my survival rate.

You two guys have a lot more experience than I have, so I take on board what you say. However, the picture I had of the Extreme AM was more of a Mage character. Forget the weapons - they are there for desperation only - I was trying to pitch this SubClass so you would get say 10 weapon kills and 250 artifact kills. To be honest, I would have prefered to remove the MWM, Max, triple etc from this class. The rod and beam are already Piercing - why do you need a Piercing Weapon? Now it might need another level of Adrenal Surge, and perhaps a greater variety of offensive artifacts, but I wanted a completely different style of play. Forget the shooting things with weapons - all the other subclasses do that. Both Ratar and Elite think the Extreme WM needs something more...Suggestions?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

here is my penny.. im not a *high* level however elite let me use his link tower. i cant give you much impressions since i only used the link for few waves from 2-11.. i didnt play in the old days with the link tower, so my impressions have no point of reference therefore i cant say link tower is too powerfull or too weak. my impressions are not corrupted by old days- when i first enter the tower i didnt liked since it was moving waaay to slow, but then i increased my dpi, and it was fine. the beam.- this toy is nice, it dosent kill too fast not too slow. i really like it..BUT there is not all honey. the beam was waaayy to long. we where in ctf-hallofanubis i almost could reach the other end of the map ( i was at the point where a "star" in the floor beggin and i could reach past the last pillar.. so i dont know.. the plasma proyectile- i felt like this little things where just 1 hit k0, i mean yes yes i was geting some link power from elite ( just 1 link) but still.. the good point is that the plasma ball dont fire that often, but still, who need to fire often if you can kill them with 1 shoot..?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

On the tank I also asked Zog and Desert what their opinions on the class were, and Desert said to increase the movement but Zog said to increase the shooting speed. No the energy shield is fine for now, rocks still kill you instantly... but the other monsters just take longer to kill you I still think it would be cool if the AM's could have an ability which was the opposite of repulsion which would suck in all the monsters at one point but dealing no damage, like a vortex :D.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ghost — GMT

Elite wrote:

I still think it would be cool if the AM's could have an ability which was the opposite of repulsion which would suck in all the monsters at one point but dealing no damage, like a vortex :D.

I like the idea, but have the vortex BEHAVE like a real vortex (or black hole) and KILL monsters ;p Opposite of mega blast ;p Now THAT vortex idea would be awesome imho of course B-)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

When I refer to the Sub-classes I'm referring to the non-"extreme" classes the multi-class (old D&D term ;)) ) I really like them but they are fairly weak at first try , the MM/Eng for example is a great support class but the class maxes out very quickly in its potential The tank is VERY slow, almost crawling in regular movement ,on larger maps it would take forever to get to any monsters oh and great work Szlat ! ^:)^ all the new sub-classes I've tried are fun and have great potential

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

The extreme WM cannot use the rod right? well at least the last time I checked they couldn't so why should any other extreme subclass have that privilege except the extreme AM of course. With that said having 3 red skaarj for the extreme monsters does not sound overpowered anymore. Perhaps we should see how the tweaks to that subclass work before actually taking out the 3rd skaarj and without the rod it shouldn't score too high. For the engineers the sentinel specialist is clearly the most powerful but yet balanced it does not exceed in points or xp from the original engineer. The vehicle and turret specialist just score less and earn less xp. I think the vehicle specialist should get a vehicle damage bonus that only works within a vehicle and the turret specialist should get a turret damage bonus that only works within a turret. I don't think the sentinel specialist needs any bonus its good the way it is. Also the primary firing on the link turret is a tad slow, I asked people for their opinions and they agree. The extreme ENG and WM need work, but more the extreme ENG it is too much like the original engineer The vortex as a black hole that could work, I don't know if they would share the same interest but it would be nice The barrels are not overpowered neither are the larger barrels, they can be spammed a lot though causing disgust among the players but it is balanced.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ratar_Killer — GMT

Szlat wrote:

However, the picture I had of the Extreme AM was more of a Mage character. Forget the weapons - they are there for desperation only - I was trying to pitch this SubClass so you would get say 10 weapon kills and 250 artifact kills. To be honest, I would have prefered to remove the MWM, Max, triple etc from this class. The rod and beam are already Piercing - why do you need a Piercing Weapon?

At level 300+ AM's just cannot kill anything without a piercing weapon. I have emptied a flak, mini and link into a gasbag and not taken out 1/4 of it's health. Without the weapon, how are we to earn the adren to start a lightning spree? BTW, wasn't surge or leech removed from sprees from lightning?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

OK torture tested the Skilled WM with a Rage 10 flak tonight and didn't notice any real change in my score :( I usually use multiple weaker weapons and get a similar score maybe the Extreme WM and Skilled WM classes need Adv damage bonus

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Or perhaps they should be combined? both the skilled weapons subclass and the extreme weaponmaster

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Elite wrote:

On the tank I also asked Zog and Desert what their opinions on the class were, and Desert said to increase the movement but Zog said to increase the shooting speed.

I can increase the movement speed (and lower the protection), and increase the weapon speed (and decrease the damage), and so get less and less Tank like, and eventually you are back to a normal WM. I was pitching this class as being very slow, but very forceful. I might have overdone it, but I think it may be worth persevering for a while. To those used to the normal WM, it will feel very slow. It is more difficult to feel the extra protection and weapon damage.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

When I refer to the Sub-classes I'm referring to the non-"extreme" classes the multi-class (old D&D term ;)) ) I really like them but they are fairly weak at first try , the MM/Eng for example is a great support class but the class maxes out very quickly in its potential

Is there not enough to buy (i.e. the subclass is too weak compared with the mother class), or is what it can buy too cheap? The figures I have are the following number of levels per subclass. These may be slightly out, but will give a rough idea. The first figure is to totally max, the second is a "useful" max (main abilities plus fast weapon switch, plus stats) Extreme AM 272 126 AM/MM 273 125 AM/Eng 277 128 WM/MM 279 131 AM Class 299 151 MM/Eng 311 163 AM/WM 303 154 WM/Eng 311 163 Extreme Medic 336 183 Tank 336 231 Berserker 342 196 WM Class 359 210 Skilled Weapons 374 226 Eng Class 384 222 Extreme WM 389 242 Sentinel Specialist 403 241 M/MM Class 404 249 Extreme Monsters 426 273 Extreme Eng 439 276 Turret Specialist 453 291 Vehicle Specialist 453 291

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

The tank is VERY slow, almost crawling in regular movement ,on larger maps it would take forever to get to any monsters

It is slow, as the Goliath is slower than the Manta.

Elite wrote:

The extreme WM cannot use the rod right? well at least the last time I checked they couldn't so why should any other extreme subclass have that privilege except the extreme AM of course. With that said having 3 red skaarj for the extreme monsters does not sound overpowered anymore. Perhaps we should see how the tweaks to that subclass work before actually taking out the 3rd skaarj and without the rod it shouldn't score too high.

So remove the rod from all but the Extreme AM. And leave the 3 lava skaarj for the moment.

Elite wrote:

... The vehicle and turret specialist just score less and earn less xp. I think the vehicle specialist should get a vehicle damage bonus that only works within a vehicle and the turret specialist should get a turret damage bonus that only works within a turret. I don't think the sentinel specialist needs any bonus its good the way it is. Also the primary firing on the link turret is a tad slow, I asked people for their opinions and they agree.

The Specialists already get a bonus for their particular type of fire - so e.g. Sentinel Specialists get +20% on sentinels. Both Turrets and Vehicles usually do damage of type "vehicle damage", so they have an bonus across both - but is a turret on a vehicle a turret or a vehicle? So I am happy lumping those two together. I can speed up the link turret if the feeling is I have nerfed too much.

Elite wrote:

The extreme ENG and WM need work, but more the extreme ENG it is too much like the original engineer

Perhaps a different list of things to spawn is required?

Elite wrote:

The barrels are not overpowered neither are the larger barrels, they can be spammed a lot though causing disgust among the players but it is balanced.

Suggestions?

Ratar_Killer wrote:

At level 300+ AM's just cannot kill anything without a piercing weapon. I have emptied a flak, mini and link into a gasbag and not taken out 1/4 of it's health. Without the weapon, how are we to earn the adren to start a lightning spree?

My initial testing was with Surge 4 and Drip 5, and even with my limited ability it was way too powerful - Adrenaline was always at Max and monsters were dying as soon as you saw them. So it might be the current maxes of Surge 3 and Drip 4 are not quite enough to sustain the Extreme AM

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ratar_Killer — GMT

Szlat wrote:

My initial testing was with Surge 4 and Drip 5, and even with my limited ability it was way too powerful - Adrenaline was always at Max and monsters were dying as soon as you saw them. So it might be the current maxes of Surge 3 and Drip 4 are not quite enough to sustain the Extreme AM

Later today I'll try the style of play you describe and see how it goes.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

OK torture tested the Skilled WM with a Rage 10 flak tonight and didn't notice any real change in my score :( I usually use multiple weaker weapons and get a similar score

Thanks for the feedback. Do you know how many kills you got with the flak - that is the key to how much damage bonus you would be getting. As you know, there are loads of things which affect your score e.g. was Elite on, and so there was nothing left to kill? Also, if it was high levels that were on, then a piercing weapon may have been a lot more effective than the rage one. Or because it was rage, did you spend more time looking for health since the Vampire wouldn't work? One thing to remember is the bonus is based on the number of kills, not the weapon. So in the later waves you could drop the rage and pick up a piercing one instead and still keep the bonus as the flak kills would be the same. Oh, and one more point. Remember to buy the Weapon Proficiency before Vampire, as then the vampire will act on the increased damage.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Ratar_Killer wrote:

Szlat wrote:

My initial testing was with Surge 4 and Drip 5, and even with my limited ability it was way too powerful - Adrenaline was always at Max and monsters were dying as soon as you saw them. So it might be the current maxes of Surge 3 and Drip 4 are not quite enough to sustain the Extreme AM
Later today I'll try the style of play you describe and see how it goes.

Wonderful thanks. The different style of play does take some getting used to. And I may well have pitched it wrongly - partly it will depend on who else is on. You will not be able to play like a WM in the thick of battle - you are too delicate, unless you want the Energy Shield to gobble all your adrenaline. But stand back a touch, and use the beam and see how you get on. The beam is often easiest to use where it is more predictable where the monsters will be e.g. coming through a doorway - but you are probably much better at aiming than I am. I think for an Extreme AM the beam has only 0.25 secs between shots, and will do up to 400 damage. A titan kill for 900 health in 3 shots (no DB/DR to consider) will use 900/14 = 65 adrenaline. Surge 3 will give you 16*2.5 = 40 adrenaline back - so to keep it going you need the multikills. Or wait 12 secs between kills. I haven't tried but if you can keybind such that a single click fires say a lightning gun at the same time as the beam, then even though the gun only does 30 or so damage, each shot will save you a couple of adrenaline. And if it is an energy weapon, then it will also help slightly. However, I found I was often using the translocator as a weapon for the instant kill. Note the rod isn't any better for the Extreme AM than for anyone else - I felt it is too powerful to boost.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

Szlat wrote:

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

OK torture tested the Skilled WM with a Rage 10 flak tonight and didn't notice any real change in my score :( I usually use multiple weaker weapons and get a similar score
Thanks for the feedback. Do you know how many kills you got with the flak - that is the key to how much damage bonus you would be getting. Oh, and one more point. Remember to buy the Weapon Proficiency before Vampire, as then the vampire will act on the increased damage.

Pretty much all Flak kills a couple minigun to get health back up ,and I had a globe so health wasn't too much of an issue Ratar came on later ,but on Seasons I usually have a "Season" to my self , and there were a fair amount of lower lvl players on on the second I don't remember what order I purchased the skills will test some more

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

I have noticed some people are playing the Extreme AM character, but are not purchasing Loaded Artifacts 5 - which gives the more-adrenaline-damage-but-less-weapon-damage. Instead they are using it as a way to get a weapon based character with Surge 3. It means I will have to put extra effort into adding a completely new Loaded Artifacts ability for the Extreme AM to purchase - so that will delay some of the bug fixes a bit as exploit fixes come first. I also believe we need extra artifacts for the Extreme AM to use, to give it better adrenaline based attacks. Suggestions welcome. The vortex has been suggested, but since the problems with the repulsion artifact, I am reluctant to do anything that involves moving monsters. I was thinking about a different type of attack - one that spreads from the monster you hit to any adjacent monsters. So for instance you could have a plague blast - a beam of say 10 degrees wide expanding out in front of the AM. Any monsters caught in it catch the plague - similar to poison, but contagious. Each tick until it terminates, any close monster will also catch the plague - and so on. Each step of the plague would reduce the "closeness" distance by which it will transfer. Another variant might just be the antimatter blast. Similar principle, but the affected monster just explodes. Again it spreads to adjacent monsters, and they explode. Would be expensive to fire, with a timer. But on the right map could be fun. Of course only available to LA5.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

And on the subject of exploits, will players please stop buying both versions of retaliation. You know you are not supposed to buy both, but some players consistently are. Please read the server rules on deliberately using exploits. Thank you.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

(DC)DEMONSLAYER — GMT

Szlat wrote:

And on the subject of exploits, will players please stop buying both versions of retaliation. You know you are not supposed to buy both, but some players consistently are. Please read the server rules on deliberately using exploits. Thank you.

Just so that every one is on the same page, exploiting the "loopholes" is a bannable offense................

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

thanks to my D&D books i have few ideas why not a chain lighting artifact.. its similar to beam except once you hit the target the beam can hit a monster that is nearby, that only occurs if you have enough adren to make the attack. why not a fireball its kind of a ball that goes the place the player has the point and it brings some fire pain to adjent monsters.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

(DC)DEMONSLAYER — GMT

Since we are going out in left field, why not the magi blast from D2? 10-12 enemies at 1 time..........

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Actually A chain lightning isn't that bad of an idea once you hit one monster it continues with the adjacent monster dealing the most damage to the first monster and then less with to all the other monsters it hits, with each new monster that it hits it deals less damage. It could either be included in the Loaded Artifacts or have a separate skill... for each level it can target more monsters and does more damage to them.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Spacey — GMT

Ratar_Killer wrote:

I'd like to see feedback from Spacey on this. Elite has a high AM but completely rocks on all classes, Spacey and I are about the same skill and would feel the effects possably in the same way. Not sure how many 200+ AM are out there.

OK...OK... I get the message... I will hop in the game and give it a try. I have saved off a copy of my stats page (did that to get rid of energy shield, which kept draining all my adren) so I can go back to my current profile if I so desire. BTW... what is the diff between the two retaliations?? Which one should I really be buying??

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

okay i think the main bugs have been adressed with the other subclasses, I'm going to start talking about the hybrids now: AM/MM: I think it needs 5 levels of advanced damage reduction, it NEEDS A ROD in loaded artifacts level 2 which should be the max. It needs 5 levels of loaded monsters so it could at least have a mercenary and 6 monster points in which to spawn it. Currently its underpowered. Monster intelligence could be around level 2 but this is an extra, the other things I suggested are a must have. And the 1 level of energy shield should be just taken out, 1 level is just not worth buying it absorbs adrenaline exceedingly fast that it is better to not buy it at all WM/MM: I think it needs 5 levels of advanced damage and reduction, currently has none and around 4 levels of vamparism. It also needs 5 levels of loaded monsters so it could at least have a mercenary and 6 monster points in which to spawn it. Also the monster intelligence could be extra but I suggest level 2 or so. MM/ENG: Surprisingly this has 5 levels of advanced damage reduction, it needs just the 5 levels of loaded monsters so it could at least have a mercenary and 6 monster points in which to spawn it and the monster intelligence. Also needs armor vamparism at least to level 5. Needs shield regen at least to 7 WM/AM: I think it needs 5 levels of advanced damage bonus and the rod and level 4 vamp, 3 just isn't quite enough. WM/ENG: I think it needs 5 levels of advanced advanced damage bonus and level 4 vamp. Shield regeneration should be cut to level 7 perhaps not 10, and this hybrid already has armor vamparism level 5 AM/ENG: I think it needs armor vamparism to level 5 and also armor regen to level 2 and shield regeneration to level 7. The energy shield might prove handy for the excess adrenaline. This class definitely needs a rod but I'm not so sure it needs adrenaline drip 3 perhaps 2 is enough? I think you would notice that for all AM hybrids I said to add a rod, this is because the rod is the source of life for the AM's. Without it they are powerless and I'm still trying to keep it balanced. I just covered all the hybrids.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

greg11 — GMT

Szlat wrote:

I was thinking about a different type of attack - one that spreads from the monster you hit to any adjacent monsters. So for instance you could have a plague blast - a beam of say 10 degrees wide expanding out in front of the AM. Any monsters caught in it catch the plague - similar to poison, but contagious. Each tick until it terminates, any close monster will also catch the plague - and so on. Each step of the plague would reduce the "closeness" distance by which it will transfer.

Set them on fire

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Spacey — GMT

Elite wrote:

Actually I side with you on this one Ratar, yes the extreme AM needs either denial or an energy artifact and perhaps a piercing artifact... but to make things balanced you can only make one weapon either a piercing weapon or an energy weapon. And the extreme AM almost impossible to kill is okay since its score is not excessively high, it balances out in the end but then again I did have 2 retaliations maxed out which might of helped increase my survival rate.

I agree as well. I started playing Extreme AM with only one retaliation maxed out (take a look at http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/dc/stats.jsp?name=%28DC%29*BEL*_e for details), and we definitely need something in the denial or energy/piercing artifact. I would almost say that if we go the artifact route, making a single weapon to something like a energy weapon with the equivalent of resupply 4, and to get nearly the same adren a normal AM would get (e.g. if extreme AM gets 50% of what a normal AM would, the adren would come in at 2x for given damage) would be the way to go. I know tonight I was running out of adren way too fast, particularly in mixed waves where the rod would get over-saturated with titans, queens, etc, but the beam/bolt could not kill enough of the skarj, etc. And this is without Energy Shield of any level. On the flip side, respawning without weapons, particularly at later waves is a killer. Also, I would say we need ghost 3, because ghosting and coming back with only 100 health leaves the AM very vulnerable. Well, off to bed with me.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Thanks for the extra testing and feedback Elite.

Elite wrote:

I think you would notice that for all AM hybrids I said to add a rod, this is because the rod is the source of life for the AM's. Without it they are powerless and I'm still trying to keep it balanced.

I am still unconvinced that the lifeblood for a class should be something that is unaimed. But that should be a separate thread. For all the MM hybrids you have added 5 levels of Advanced Damage Reduction, plus basic monster summoning skills. Since they do max quite early, and if the subclass is a bit weak, I don't see why not. For all the WM hybrids you have said Advanced Damage Bonus 5. And again I suppose why not, since they all max quite early.

Elite wrote:

AM/MM: .....the 1 level of energy shield should be just taken out, 1 level is just not worth buying it absorbs adrenaline exceedingly fast that it is better to not buy it at all

Elite wrote:

WM/MM:...and ... around 4 levels of vamparism. ...

Not so sure about this. The subclass has the medic weapon so can self heal. Also the vampirism concept doesn't fit in too well with the medic concept - medics shouldn't really drain life off others? How about more regen instead?

Elite wrote:

MM/ENG: .... Also needs armor vamparism at least to level 5. Needs shield regen at least to 7

Again, should a medic have more regen rather than vampire? I know not as powerful, but...

Elite wrote:

WM/AM: I think it needs 5 levels of advanced damage bonus and the rod and level 4 vamp, 3 just isn't quite enough.

I was pitching this one so the AM part helped the WM have better weapons. So the increased vamp - why not.

Elite wrote:

WM/ENG: I think it needs 5 levels of advanced damage bonus and level 4 vamp. Shield regeneration should be cut to level 7 perhaps not 10, and this hybrid already has armor vamparism level 5

Elite wrote:

AM/ENG: I think it needs armor vamparism to level 5 and also armor regen to level 2 and shield regeneration to level 7. The energy shield might prove handy for the excess adrenaline. This class definitely needs a rod but I'm not so sure it needs adrenaline drip 3 perhaps 2 is enough?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Spacey wrote:

.... and we definitely need something in the denial or energy/piercing artifact. I would almost say that if we go the artifact route, making a single weapon to something like a energy weapon with the equivalent of resupply 4, and to get nearly the same adren a normal AM would get (e.g. if extreme AM gets 50% of what a normal AM would, the adren would come in at 2x for given damage) would be the way to go.

At the moment, the subclass has reduced Energy leech - perhaps we add more levels of this, and remove the restriction for this subclass about it not working with an artifact running.

Spacey wrote:

I know tonight I was running out of adren way too fast, particularly in mixed waves where the rod would get over-saturated with titans, queens, etc, but the beam/bolt could not kill enough of the skarj, etc. And this is without Energy Shield of any level.

Currently the rod gets no benefit from an Extreme AM compared to a normal AM. If you use it, you will run out of adrenaline. I think I need to start a separate thread about what we can do with the rod - everybody loves it but it is a balancing nightmare.

Spacey wrote:

On the flip side, respawning without weapons, particularly at later waves is a killer.

I don't want this subclass to be dependent on weapons. It isn't a WM/AM hybrid.

Spacey wrote:

Also, I would say we need ghost 3, because ghosting and coming back with only 100 health leaves the AM very vulnerable.

At the moment, half of the Extreme/Specialist ones get only Ghost 2. Perhaps they all need to be Ghost 3. And thanks for the feedback Spacey.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

greg11 wrote:

Elite wrote:

on the extreme monster master the pets are getting 300% damage increase due to the advanced damage bonus for pet. There are currently 20 levels, i think it should be reduced to 10, and if that is still too strong then perhaps 5, but 10 should be good for now.
I would change it to 5% per level, this way there are points to be spent.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Dracos — GMT

Szlat wrote:

I have noticed some people are playing the Extreme AM character, but are not purchasing Loaded Artifacts 5 - which gives the more-adrenaline-damage-but-less-weapon-damage. Instead they are using it as a way to get a weapon based character with Surge 3. It means I will have to put extra effort into adding a completely new Loaded Artifacts ability for the Extreme AM to purchase - so that will delay some of the bug fixes a bit as exploit fixes come first. I also believe we need extra artifacts for the Extreme AM to use, to give it better adrenaline based attacks. Suggestions welcome. The vortex has been suggested, but since the problems with the repulsion artifact, I am reluctant to do anything that involves moving monsters. I was thinking about a different type of attack - one that spreads from the monster you hit to any adjacent monsters. So for instance you could have a plague blast - a beam of say 10 degrees wide expanding out in front of the AM. Any monsters caught in it catch the plague - similar to poison, but contagious. Each tick until it terminates, any close monster will also catch the plague - and so on. Each step of the plague would reduce the "closeness" distance by which it will transfer. Another variant might just be the antimatter blast. Similar principle, but the affected monster just explodes. Again it spreads to adjacent monsters, and they explode. Would be expensive to fire, with a timer. But on the right map could be fun. Of course only available to LA5.

Why not put an ability limiter on Drip 4 and 5 that it required LA5?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ghost — GMT

I tried the Extreme AM subclass and gotta agree with Ratar "it doesn't feel extreme" like one of the WM subclasses. It felt extremely underpowered in the sense that it only had resupply 2. I'm constantly running away to avoid damage because of not enough ammo. Sure, beam is useful on waves 6 and 14. But on other waves it is just impractical because of the large numbers of monsters. So beam is out for most of the waves. Rod is constantly on to keep monsters off of me. I could not replenish my adrenaline fast enough because of running out of ammo constantly. I know Zlat want this class to be dependent on artifacts and independent of weapons. But they two are NOT exclusively independent. You can't solely depend on adren drip to keep a constant flow of adren while the artifacts are draining twice as fast, perhaps more. Need to leech more with guns, in other words, resupply 3 or 4? don't know, I'd have to try either one. Ghost 3? hm would not hurt, I don't feel it necessary. Denial? yes, at least denial 2 where u get to keep at LEAST one gun. Hope this info is useful.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Spacey — GMT

One other thing I kept running into last night... in the middle of crowds of monsters, artifacts like bolt, beam, and the blast all routinely gave me the "You cannot use this artifact again yet" or what ever it says.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Szlat could the primary fire rate of the link turret please be increased to original firing rate. Also when you mentioned having turrets on vehicles that would be actually fun but I don't think it would balance things out between the vehicle & turret specialist with the sentinel specialists, sounds good should give it a try but something more has to be done. And triple does not seem to work in the link turret. Perhaps giving a test try with the ion tank and ion cannon? or the auto pilot turrets but that would still leave the vehicle specialist underpowered. Also could the Poison blast be moved to the Healer Master instead of the AM's, it would be a perfect addition to the healer's arsenal since it would fit its criteria. Besides the AM's barely ever use it.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Elite wrote:

Szlat could the primary fire rate of the link turret please be increased to original firing rate.

Druid thinks in general that link fire causes some of the lag, so I might not put it all the waay back. However, I will have to cut the damage each projectile does. Is it too weak at the moment, or does it just feel wrong firing so slowly?

Elite wrote:

And triple does not seem to work in the link turret.

ok, I'll add to the bug list

Elite wrote:

Perhaps giving a test try with the ion tank and ion cannon? or the auto pilot turrets but that would still leave the vehicle specialist underpowered.

I am looking at the auto-pilot turrets for the Turret Specialist, but am not against the ion cannon/turret - I just haven't had time to try them yet.

Elite wrote:

Also could the Poison blast be moved to the Healer Master instead of the AM's, it would be a perfect addition to the healer's arsenal since it would fit its criteria. Besides the AM's barely ever use it.

Could be on both.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Yes it just feels wrong firing slowly hmm and perhaps both AMs and healer classes can have the poison blast

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Hmm Greg was talking of a confusion artifact in the rod and piercing thread... But was that for the AM because that artifact would not only fit perfectly with the extreme healer but also because that class needs more things added. But perhaps we can modify this ability so it can fit with both classes: AM: the artifact would be called CONFUSION and like Greg said it would confuse the monsters into attacking the nearest thing to them whether that be another person, monster, or sentinel. Or it could just confuse the monsters to attack nothing just making them walk around confused not knowing what to attack Extreme Healer: now I got this idea from L4D2 for this subclass they could have an artifact similar to a boomer bile which not only confuses monsters but say you hit a Titan with the bile then all the monsters within a certain radius will be drawn to that location and be forced to attack the Titan. This could create an imterestig gameplay. Roadkill and fodder should know what talking about :p

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

Hehehe the good old "bottle o' puke" I like that idea, maybe not to attack another monster (would be not like a healing class) , but a defensive ability . All the monsters within a certain radius would be attracted to the spot for a certain time, allowing players to regroup/get healed. What would happen if you throw it into a pit/over the edge of a space map though ? Played the WM/AM subclass and rather enjoyed it, gets adrenaline very slowly thought would like surge but it might be too powerful , how about drip lvl 1?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Well I'll just repeat this since I did not see them in the balance and bug changes. These 2 changes are very important and need to be changed ASAP. The advanced monster damage should be 5% instead of 10% as suggested by greg and I still think it should be knocked down to 15 levels instead of 20. At the moment Medics with this much power can score 4k easily The rod must be taken from the beserker class, it can also score around 4k easily.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

[RMD]RAPIER — GMT

Monster Master : three lava skaarj are just too many (they are killing machines)

I guess I'll be the first Under 200 player to post to this thread. I just finished a map that had two monster masters on and with that there were 6 Lava Scaarj's running around. They Killed pretty much anything in sight and with only one or two hits. I was playing my level 175 engineer with a energy turret set up. I noticed an major drop in play. For the set up I had, I routinely get better than 1200 kills for this map and that was mostly by myself without any support for another engineer. This time my score was 610 kills. I was the High scorer below the monster master with most of the rest below 400 or so. I've been try to work my Engineer up to above 200 so I could try out some of the Sub-Classes. But At this rate it's going to be a while. My concern is if the sub classes are going to cut my score 50% Which I feel I'm a pretty good player, whats it going to do to the guys that are below level 70 and how is it going to effect them leveling up.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

greg11 — GMT

[RMD wrote:

RAPIER] My concern is if the sub classes are going to cut my score 50% Which I feel I'm a pretty good player, whats it going to do to the guys that are below level 70 and how is it going to effect them leveling up.

It used to be: "There goes my score. Elite just joined." Now it is: "...The subclasses are playing." :)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

(DC)DEMONSLAYER — GMT

greg11 wrote:

[RMD wrote:

RAPIER] My concern is if the sub classes are going to cut my score 50% Which I feel I'm a pretty good player, whats it going to do to the guys that are below level 70 and how is it going to effect them leveling up.
It used to be: "There goes my score. Elite just joined." Now it is: "...The subclasses are playing." :)

:)) :)) :))

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Elite wrote:

Well I'll just repeat this since I did not see them in the balance and bug changes. The advanced monster damage should be 5% instead of 10% as suggested by greg and I still think it should be knocked down to 15 levels instead of 20. At the moment Medics with this much power can score 4k easily The rod must be taken from the beserker class, it can also score around 4k easily.

Sorry, I hadn't updated the Development log properly - have done so now. The rod has been removed from the Berserker. In my mind, I put it in with the Extremes and Specialists - but you are right, I should have clarified it. The Monster Damage is now 5% per level, not 10%. It is still 20 levels at the moment. The Lava Skaarj have been set to 10 points each, requiring level 20. Do I need to increase them to 11 or 12 points? Are they too strong and killing the game, or do we need to see what they are like with the half extra damage? I believe the SubClasses shouldn't be stronger than the original classes - just different. Sounds at the moment that the Extreme Monsters is too powerful. The nerfs currently pending are:

Monster Damage dropped to 5% per level from 10%

Loaded Healing level 1 not 2

Regen now 2 not 5

No rod any more

Lava skaarj more expensive Will that be sufficient?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

We will have to see how that works out in the next build

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

I think the out of bounds should be taken off for all land vehicles or at least for the land vehicles that the vehicle specialist creates. Those vehicles are it's life and when you are not able to be in the vehicle because of the warning it becomes a nuisance, and you tend to die a lot easier. Also the goliath's max health is 1600 hp while the paladin's health is 2400 hp shouldn't they both have roughly the same hp? The paladin without any construction health bonus starts at 600 while the goliath starts out at 400. Perhaps just increasing the goliath to 600 base health would solve this problem. That extra health does make a big difference when in the middle of warlords.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

(DC)DEMONSLAYER — GMT

Szlat, Somehow my level 130+ engineer was able to sell and then buy the turret specialist......... Also, you might want to shorten the length of the link turret alt-fire (stream) as I was able to reach from the lower tunnel past the picket fence on UrbanBay.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Cazius — GMT

I believe the SubClasses shouldn't be stronger than the original classes - just different. Sounds at the moment that the Extreme Monsters is too powerful. The nerfs currently pending are:
Monster Damage dropped to 5% per level from 10%
Loaded Healing level 1 not 2
Regen now 2 not 5
No rod any more
Lava skaarj more expensive Will that be sufficient?

Yes, Lava skaarj are a bit overpowered. I had 3 of them pretty much single-handedly winning a game today. We really should be limited to one at a time. Perhaps set a point cost of 16? That said, I'm going to enjoy playing with 3 in the meantime. Nothing like watching a group of titans just melt in front of you.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Is it the Extreme Monsters class that is overpowered, or is it just the Lava Skaarj? Can someone test the Extreme Monsters SubClass please without the Lava Skaarj, and see how it goes. Thanks.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

I am trying to incorporate back into the code the suggestions raised in this and the bug thread. Some fixes are quite easy, so can go straight in. Others require significant coding (like the extra AM abilities and the HardCore feedback), so haven't been finished yet. Sorry to everyone for any lack of enjoyment they might experience while these issues are being resolved.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

okay so I played a few maps without the red skaarj and I must say now the class seems pretty balanced. I think the red skaarj is just overkill, naturally they do a lot of damage and with their precise shots they kill way too fast. Especially when stacked with advanced monster damage. I think the red skaarj is too powerful to have as a pet and should be taken out. Of course I know there might be people that would hate to lose their skaarj. If taking out the red skaarj is not what you want you can always reduce the base damage a red skaarj does, but reduce it by more than half or so. The skaarj's accuracy is too much already. If the red skaarj does get taken out why not add a queen but without the pupae though? Or one of my personal favorites a skaarj sniper but make it a ghost like the ghost behemoth. Or possibly a bunny that can only be used once a wave just like the redeemer or ion, after all the Monster master is a fighting class now.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Elite wrote:

okay so I played a few maps without the red skaarj and I must say now the class seems pretty balanced. I think the red skaarj is just overkill, naturally they do a lot of damage and with their precise shots they kill way too fast. Especially when stacked with advanced monster damage. I think the red skaarj is too powerful to have as a pet and should be taken out. Of course I know there might be people that would hate to lose their skaarj. If taking out the red skaarj is not what you want you can always reduce the base damage a red skaarj does, but reduce it by more than half or so. The skaarj's accuracy is too much already.

Thanks for checking that for me. It helps to get a fuller picture. Perhaps for the short term up the Lava Skaarj to 16 points, so you can only get a max of 1, while I think about replacements. I vaguely remember Druid didn't like the lag that Queens put on the system, so he may not be keen on using Princesses as pets.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

just wondering if extra monsters are as much a "burden" on the server as all the Engineer "toys" I'm just wondering if a few more friendly monsters (more than 3 per Monster Master) would be worse than the multitude of Engineers and their blocks etc.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

and barrels!! i hate big barrels and what buggy me the most is that high lvl engis can spawn them once every second or so

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Has anyone with the Extreme Monsters SubClass tried the commands AttackEnemy Follow Stay You will probably need to put them in your user.ini, like ..... home=AttackEnemy ..... Period=Stay .....

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

No I haven't gotten to that, how do u access those comands? is it by pressing v just as if u were giving commands to your teamates? if not can you please explain

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Elite wrote:

No I haven't gotten to that, how do u access those comands? is it by pressing v just as if u were giving commands to your teamates? if not can you please explain

You can type then directly into the console, or edit your user.ini file and directly assign them to keys. e.g. home=AttackEnemy to set the home button to issue the AttackEnemy command. Of course you could set any key. But the point is you do not have to use an Alias. (The AttackEnemy command causes your pets to attack what you are focused on. The Stay command causes them to stay where they are, the follow essentially counters the Stay command)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

loving the ghost behemoths,Dual Titans been playing a bit and it seems just the Lava skaarj are off balance due to the massive damage they deal with a very high accuracy (1 shot kills) I've gone back to my berserking ways with the Monster Master as I have no heal blasts to spend my adren on fun fun fun B-) I think the monster master should get some experienced healing though as this would provide them with a little more incentive to heal other characters and be more team-like in nature so if I type "follow" into the console my monsters will stop wandering around so much and follow me cool :) will they sit and roll over though ?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

acually i think is better if you go to ur user.ini open it as a text pad. then you bind the command for example you will see W=forwards or something like that, well pick a key that isnt used and add follow for example you could make this /=follow (the "/" key is in the num pad)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

acually i think is better if you go to ur user.ini open it as a text pad. then you bind the command for example you will see W=forwards or something like that, well pick a key that isnt used and add follow for example you could make this /=follow (the "/" key is in the num pad)

Yes I agree with Hatter, going into the console brought me problems and said the orders were unrecognized. When you tell your pet to stay, it stays which is actually very useful but it becomes practically blind to its surrounding, if its not within a foot or two of your pet it will completely ignore it. The follow command is just like normal. And the attack is a nice addition but I think we will benefit from this command mainly in DM when players run away. Here monsters seem to die way too quickly to actually target them with your pets and execute an order.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

greg11 — GMT

Szlat wrote:

I vaguely remember Druid didn't like the lag that Queens put on the system, so he may not be keen on using Princesses as pets.

If I remember correctly, I think it is the null web. I recall getting some serious lag on a local server when many queens spawn their web at the same time.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

greg11 — GMT

Elite wrote:

Or possibly a bunny that can only be used once a wave just like the redeemer or ion, after all the Monster master is a fighting class now.

The bunny would be like the engineer barrel.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

greg11 wrote:

Szlat wrote:

I vaguely remember Druid didn't like the lag that Queens put on the system, so he may not be keen on using Princesses as pets.
If I remember correctly, I think it is the null web. I recall getting some serious lag on a local server when many queens spawn their web at the same time.

My recollection was with Queens, not Poison Queens.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Er_ras — GMT

Some idea's for Engineers and other things after playing them a while for Sub classes. Effects for Turrets and Sentinals. AKA I would like to be able to put piercing or Maybe even Vorpal or Null as additional effects on the guns. (Artifact for those? ) ------- Also like to see a separate Engineer/Link gun. Primary fire - Long distance Shields/fixing. 2ndary fire - Short Distance, but a significant boost in repair. Extreme - Possible to give things an 'additional' shield or a DR? (So just maybe those turrets could stand up to Titan rocks. --------- I would like to see level 1 resupply available for all classes. ;) Idea about if Resupply- Why not have it do a % of their ammo instead of set amounts? AKA Level 1 does .5% of their max ammo every tick. Level 2 does 1% Level 3 does 3% Level 4 does 5% (Max) --------- I would like to see a new artifact - Called - Bad Juju. Simply this artifact takes 50 adren and would get used up in the use - BUT it would allow you to throw a negative weapon away and to get a 'plain' one.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

FogRaider(_MM) — GMT

I think for an Extreme AM the beam has only 0.25 secs between shots, and will do up to 400 damage. A titan kill for 900 health in 3 shots (no DB/DR to consider) will use 900/14 = 65 adrenaline. Surge 3 will give you 16*2.5 = 40 adrenaline back - so to keep it going you need the multikills. Or wait 12 secs between kills.

This was a huge problem the other day. Wave 6, Elite runs around with an extreme AM and began two-shotting titans with a beam. It took less than half a second for each. In itself, this wouldn't be so bad, except it was sustainable. The wave ended in record time, he scored what is in my estimation 500-600 points in that wave alone, and had over 1000 sum total. The point gap was around 100 points between him and the next player about wave 5, and about 600 points after 6. Trans was out near constantly since a weapon wasn't necessary, meaning you couldn't simply move out of his hunting zone...his zone was the entire map. This is all second-hand, of course, and hopefully you will get a post from the man himself. I have no problem with the Extreme AM in general or with the beam artifact, but if this continues, the titan waves will be completely deprived of any sense of fair play. High-end monsters deserve to last at least a full second IMHO. [/rant]

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

dom60 — GMT

here';s a suggestion to fix the problem... NERF THE HELL OUTTA HIM!!! not the class! :)) elite does that to any and all types of class he plays! he's just a in their face kick ass and not take names player! ^:)^

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

The MM/AM class has no MWM ? yet it can max,and +1 weapons, I think it should be the opposite

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

FogRaider(_MM) — GMT

No offense, but you can only chalk up so much to skill. Especially in a titan wave, damage potential is going to very quickly outstrip aiming in terms of points scored, since almost every player can hit a titan 95% of the time. Skill only determines the ability to use the tools given, not the balance of said tools. Worship if you want, I maintain it's a problem. Perhaps I'll take more pains to memorize the other players next time for comparison's sake, but they weren't chumps, I'll tell you that much. I think ratar, brandi, and zog were some of the others, on AM, AM, and WM respectively. I'll aim to provide more hard data and screenshots next time.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

FogRaider(_MM) wrote:

I think for an Extreme AM the beam has only 0.25 secs between shots, and will do up to 400 damage. A titan kill for 900 health in 3 shots (no DB/DR to consider) will use 900/14 = 65 adrenaline. Surge 3 will give you 16*2.5 = 40 adrenaline back - so to keep it going you need the multikills. Or wait 12 secs between kills.
This was a huge problem the other day. Wave 6, Elite runs around with an extreme AM and began two-shotting titans with a beam. It took less than half a second for each. In itself, this wouldn't be so bad, except it was sustainable. The wave ended in record time, he scored what is in my estimation 500-600 points in that wave alone, and had over 1000 sum total. The point gap was around 100 points between him and the next player about wave 5, and about 600 points after 6. Trans was out near constantly since a weapon wasn't necessary, meaning you couldn't simply move out of his hunting zone...his zone was the entire map. This is all second-hand, of course, and hopefully you will get a post from the man himself. I have no problem with the Extreme AM in general or with the beam artifact, but if this continues, the titan waves will be completely deprived of any sense of fair play. High-end monsters deserve to last at least a full second IMHO.

It is a question of getting the balance right, and I am not sure we are there yet. If it is a minimum of 0.25 secs between beam shots, and it takes 3 shots, then on average they will be going down in about a second, as people will tend to refire at around 0.3 secs. Off hand, I can't think of anything else that would continuously take out titans so fast - so it might be we need to limit the max damage for the beam to 250. This would slow down the kills, and also make the multi-kills more difficult. Note however that someone with a flak+4 weapon speed 50 double damage will be doing 150*1.5*1.4*2 = 630 damage per second. Now make it berserk, and again you are taking out titans in less than a second. And if someone has weapon proficiency, again they could be really knocking them out. Assuming that berserking doubles the weapon speed - I can't check at the moment - a standard WM flak+4 weapon speed 50 enh damage 10 150*1.5*1.4*1.15*2 = 724 per sec - which isn't as much, but then throw in the superweapon kills and it isn't in a different ball park. And I hate to think how fast the berserker subclass could take them out with it's quad damage! So, it probably does need tweaking down a bit, but not a vast amount.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

FogRaider(_MM) wrote:

I think for an Extreme AM the beam has only 0.25 secs between shots, and will do up to 400 damage. A titan kill for 900 health in 3 shots (no DB/DR to consider) will use 900/14 = 65 adrenaline. Surge 3 will give you 16*2.5 = 40 adrenaline back - so to keep it going you need the multikills. Or wait 12 secs between kills.
This was a huge problem the other day. Wave 6, Elite runs around with an extreme AM and began two-shotting titans with a beam. It took less than half a second for each. In itself, this wouldn't be so bad, except it was sustainable. The wave ended in record time, he scored what is in my estimation 500-600 points in that wave alone, and had over 1000 sum total. The point gap was around 100 points between him and the next player about wave 5, and about 600 points after 6. Trans was out near constantly since a weapon wasn't necessary, meaning you couldn't simply move out of his hunting zone...his zone was the entire map. This is all second-hand, of course, and hopefully you will get a post from the man himself. I have no problem with the Extreme AM in general or with the beam artifact, but if this continues, the titan waves will be completely deprived of any sense of fair play. High-end monsters deserve to last at least a full second IMHO. [/rant]

Well I am usually quick with the trans as I have it keybinded onto my mouse, but this is aside from the point. When I play as my AM (the original AM, not SUBCLASSES) with the triple and rod, I can easily wipe out a map much quicker and cleaner than what I can do with the beam. Yes, I'll admit the titan waves are easier due to the big target area titans give and queens as well. But if we are to change something with the beam to make this subclass weaker then something must be changed with the original AM as well as it is currently a tad stronger. As an extreme AM I find wave 6 and 14 to be the easiest and wave 10 to be the hardest. The smaller the monsters the harder it is to hit them. And viceversa, it just happens to be that the monsters which give the most points are titans and queens. On waves 15 and 16 I find it hard to stay alive since it is full of big and small monsters, which in those later waves both deal a ton of damage.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

FogRaider(_MM) — GMT

^^^ That sounds about right. Overall, the class doesn't seem to do much better or worse than the original AM, but only on certain waves. Interval change would affect all gameplay in theory. Similarly, adren/damage ratio change would affect all play. A max damage change, however, would require going through the monster list and checking the HP of each monster to see what it affects. I can't remember atm what the max HP for Brutes, Behemoths and Elite Mercenaries is. Giant Gasbags, Queens, Warlords and Titans may or may not be changed, however, depending on how they divide into the chosen number. Perhaps it could even be made so that all damaging/lightning artifacts do not take DB/DR into account whatsoever, and then balanced to accomodate these changes afterwards. @ Szlat, you must remember most weapons have a projectile flight time. Beam does not. This doesn't affect DPS so much as mobility, though. I any case, I'm sure a solution will be found. GL, and thanks for all the hard work so far.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

dom60 wrote:

NERF THE HELL OUTTA HIM!!! not the class! :))

LOL It's been tried ...

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ratar_Killer — GMT

Elite wrote:

FogRaider(_MM) wrote:

I think for an Extreme AM the beam has only 0.25 secs between shots, and will do up to 400 damage. A titan kill for 900 health in 3 shots (no DB/DR to consider) will use 900/14 = 65 adrenaline. Surge 3 will give you 16*2.5 = 40 adrenaline back - so to keep it going you need the multikills. Or wait 12 secs between kills.
This was a huge problem the other day. Wave 6, Elite runs around with an extreme AM and began two-shotting titans with a beam. It took less than half a second for each. In itself, this wouldn't be so bad, except it was sustainable. The wave ended in record time, he scored what is in my estimation 500-600 points in that wave alone, and had over 1000 sum total. The point gap was around 100 points between him and the next player about wave 5, and about 600 points after 6. Trans was out near constantly since a weapon wasn't necessary, meaning you couldn't simply move out of his hunting zone...his zone was the entire map. This is all second-hand, of course, and hopefully you will get a post from the man himself. I have no problem with the Extreme AM in general or with the beam artifact, but if this continues, the titan waves will be completely deprived of any sense of fair play. High-end monsters deserve to last at least a full second IMHO. [/rant]
Well I am usually quick with the trans as I have it keybinded onto my mouse, but this is aside from the point. When I play as my AM (the original AM, not SUBCLASSES) with the triple and rod, I can easily wipe out a map much quicker and cleaner than what I can do with the beam. Yes, I'll admit the titan waves are easier due to the big target area titans give and queens as well. But if we are to change something with the beam to make this subclass weaker then something must be changed with the original AM as well as it is currently a tad stronger. As an extreme AM I find wave 6 and 14 to be the easiest and wave 10 to be the hardest. The smaller the monsters the harder it is to hit them. And viceversa, it just happens to be that the monsters which give the most points are titans and queens. On waves 15 and 16 I find it hard to stay alive since it is full of big and small monsters, which in those later waves both deal a ton of damage.

I agree here, I score about the same with my regular AM but with completely different game play. I just think there is some "settling in" time to see how the sub classes fit in. The sub classes are an obvious change to team play and I think that makes some people uncomfortable. It really going to be a wait and see situation.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

dom60 — GMT

Elite wrote:

dom60 wrote:

NERF THE HELL OUTTA HIM!!! not the class! :))
LOL It's been tried ...

HEHE may I suggest a timer for Elite that alows him to fire only every 10 or 15 sec for 5 secs...that should gives us other guys a fight'n chance! :-?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

[RMD]RAPIER — GMT

Monster Medic = Monster XP I just got done playing a map were Ton was on his monster medic. running three red scarj. Near the end of wave 16 I checked the score board and Ton had a score of 3425 and an XP of 5677 and both were still climbing. I was on my Engineer, in a Energy Turret With one linker and running a tripple. The best I could do was 1182 926xp. My engineer is at level 185 and I'm working hard to get to the magic 200 so I can play with some of the new toys. I figure I lost 600 XP to the linker and didn't break a 1000 for a total of 16 waves and at the XP I earned it would take me somewhere around 9 games to level up once. At the XP Ton was earning he would level up every 1.7 games. What was really earking me was I was pounding away taking somewere between 15 to 20 hits to put a titan down and the scarj would pop them twice and the were gone. I think my best game ever as an Engineer was around 3400 And that was with 5 people linking me and running a tripple. I know that this is a work in progress, But easily leveling up in two games. I want that, but your going to have the kick the power up of my turret's by a factor of 4, maybe 5 for me to get close.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Yes, having 3 red skaarj is too much. As already stated elsewhere, the cost of the red skaarj is changing on the next rebuild so that the Extreme Monsters class will only be able to buy one of them.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ryuxen — GMT

Yeah 3 lava skaarj pets for one monster master is a Mass Exp Eater, Even my sentinels dont have a chance againts the lava skaarjs, they instakill everything with a single shot, thats why when a player summon 3 red skaarjs in the game I better log out, I know I will not get the normal Xp I used to and Ill just be wandering around :))

SubClass Balance Issues

greg11 — GMT

Since the lava skaarj can take out a titan in 2 hits, I think we need a lava titan added. ;)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

cribbage — GMT

This is an interesting situation, people commenting about how overpowered a monster master is. I totally agree that 3 of those things are way out of hand. I recently scored over 13K xp on a map with two bots and a low level eng (staying alive for me, but hiding behind blocks). I totally agree that the almost instant killing of titans (and anything else) is a balance issue. From what I understand, this will is going to be fixed; one red skaarj with less of a punch. So let me make some observations. The near-instant killing of titans has been around since before the inception of subclasses. WMs with a dd or trip and a piercing weapon (or pop gun) can clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys. AMs with that blue bolt thing can - bang, bang, bang - clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys. An Eng with a turret and a few linkers can clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys. Now, I say "just about" because I grant you that the reds obliterate everything in sight faster than anything else. But for lower level players, it doesn't matter whether its reds, or bolts, or turrets doing it, they still cant catch a break. Even before the subclasses, on certain maps with a certain mix of players, it was very difficult even for high level players to get any titan kills because they would drop like flies. For example, any map that an eng can set up a turret and see 90% of the map, its a good bet that there'll be one high scorer and a bunch of mediocre ones. With certain other smaller 1-1 maps, a good AM can trans back and forth between two areas with a rod knocking everything down. I guess my point is that, yes, the red guys are too strong. But people were quitting in disgust/discouragement before they came along and they will continue to do so after there is only one weakened red guy. I worked myself up from low levels like everyone else, watching someone else come bounding up and bolting down a titan I had just whittled down. Watching an energy beam come out of a speck in the distance and finish off the warlord I had just whittled down. Hearing a POP and watching the queen fall in front of me after I had just whittled it down. Now that I am on the other end of it, does it make me feel a bit guilty to have such an advantage? Yes. I look forward to the time when I get my xp the old fashioned way: fighting for it against the odds with an underpowered class and still being competitive. I am just curious about how this will play out once the MM has been "balanced" back to underpowered. We dont spawn with a medic weapon, while the eng spawns with their inf wep, and WMs get loaded weapons. We don't have resupply so if we manage to find a decent weapon we can use it for about 10 seconds before we have to find 3 more seconds of ammo for it. We can't make an infinite link any more. Our pets are painfully stupid. They get stuck behind blocks or in water traps. They fall off edges. They cant aim. They feel the need to waste time by doing their taunt move whenever something near them dies. It takes time to build up adren while an eng can build immediately to begin with and purchase fast build as an ability. WMs don't need to build anything, so they can save it all for berserk. I have rambled on here and I hope I am not misunderstood. Maybe I have vented a little. I am simply trying to point out my perspective on the balance issue. The red skaarjs were an attempt to give the MM some teeth and it was overdone. Once they are reined in, it seems like it's back to square one for MMs and I'll go back to fighting for my third of a level per map with my "too powerful" medic weapon.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

All feedback is gratefully received. With the subclasses, the idea is to give variety, not more power. The different subclasses will be stronger than the classes at some things, and worse at others. We need to get them balanced. The Extreme Monster subclass is too powerful at the moment, so it needs to be pulled back a bit. I have reduced it so you will only be able to get one red skaarj, but I haven't yet nerfed the red skaarj at all. We can then re-assess once it is live, and if it needs more power give it more - if it needs more nerfing, then we might need to nerf the red skaarj a bit. I am not after any one class or subclass being more powerful than others. (By power, I think we probably have to rate by xp per map). So any subclass that scores too high has to come back a bit, and any that score too little has to be increased in power. There are lots of pending changes. I think once these get live, we will need to keep a high score table for the subclasses to see how it needs balancing. But no point doing it yet.

SubClass Balance Issues

(DC)DEMONSLAYER — GMT

greg11 wrote:

Since the lava skaarj can take out a titan in 2 hits, I think we need a lava titan added. ;)

Lol, keep dreaming

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

it wont be any different from normal titans.. both are deadly..

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

synchronyze — GMT

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

it wont be any different from normal titans.. both are deadly..

But imagine instead of rocks they throw big globs of insta-kill goop that travel as quickly and accurately as the lava skaarj goop. I do hope Druid does another update soon, though. The lava skaarj not only gobble all the xp, they like to jump between you and your target to absorb any fire that might have otherwise gotten you a couple xp. Whenever the lava pets appear I just leave... Or maybe people could stop using them since we already know they are overpowered and it's no longer "testing"... it would be a rather kind gesture to the rest of us..

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

Crib I feel your PAIN I actually use my medic MUCH less than I used to. We do need to remember the medic class was designed to be a support class though.and it is the most forgiving class (you can always heal yourself) I think 2 or 3 lava skaarj would be OK we just need to weaken their damage done (as Elite pointed out maybe 300% is too much) most of your examples are AM issues I noticed ,and for a change I will defend the AM class I use the Beam/Bolt only in near death situations and have cut back my L-Rod use substantially Mostly because I prefer making better weapons but also because I have spent enough time in your shoes and can't stand players using the Rod as their primary weapon is beyond irritating for other players who have to "hunt and kill". While I understand it can be an AMs lifeblood it doesn't have to be (Don't be so lazy work for your points like everyone else! or at least be part of the team and use a sphere for everyone) BUT it is a killing/dying machine as a class ,and takes more skill than many will use while playing it.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ryuxen — GMT

synchronyze wrote:

I do hope Druid does another update soon, though. The lava skaarj not only gobble all the xp, they like to jump between you and your target to absorb any fire that might have otherwise gotten you a couple xp. Whenever the lava pets appear I just leave... Or maybe people could stop using them since we already know they are overpowered and it's no longer "testing"... it would be a rather kind gesture to the rest of us..

Yeah Im agree with you

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

synchronyze wrote:

.....Whenever the lava pets appear I just leave... Or maybe people could stop using them since we already know they are overpowered and it's no longer "testing"... it would be a rather kind gesture to the rest of us..

I am with synchronyze here. Since it is now well documented that the 3 red skaarj are too powerful, what is the motive behind continuing to spawn 3? I don't mind each player doing it once, just so they can experience themselves that it is overpowered, but doing it all the time is just being selfish. The subclasses are currently in test. It would be nice to get daily rebuilds to integrate changes, but unfortunately Druid is too busy at the moment, and so we have to work with what we have. After the next rebuild it might be a long time before another one. I would recommend that players would be better off testing how life is going to be if possible. So try playing Extreme Monsters with one red skaarj - if it is underpowered tell me now, not after the next rebuild when you might be stuck with it for months. Same applies to all subclasses (but obviously where a subclass is having things added it can't be tested)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Szlat wrote:

The subclasses are currently in test. It would be nice to get daily rebuilds to integrate changes, but unfortunately Druid is too busy at the moment, and so we have to work with what we have. After the next rebuild it might be a long time before another one. I would recommend that players would be better off testing how life is going to be if possible. So try playing Extreme Monsters with one red skaarj - if it is underpowered tell me now, not after the next rebuild when you might be stuck with it for months. Same applies to all subclasses (but obviously where a subclass is having things added it can't be tested)

You're currently working on the AM subclass with the fireball right? but out of curiosity have extra levels of quickfoot been added to the beserker subclass for the next build as I could not see it in your post. As you said earlier the translocator would be more efficient, but what happens when you do not have a translocator like monster assault, you will be targeted more and your life expectancy will diminish as well. As for the tank subclass, is there a level 3 ultima? And you mentioned making the monsters jump up instead of away from the tank subclass when it double jumps... why not the exact same effect titans have on players? Except the closer a monster is to the tank subclass, the more damage it might take?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Elite wrote:

You're currently working on the AM subclass with the fireball right?

It is on my list. The three things I am actively working on now are

the out of bounds for vehicles and turrets. But I am not having much joy with tracking this down. It might have to be Druid that fixes this one later - unless someone else can spot where the problem is

The Ion Turret for Turret Specialists. Most of the coding is done, I just need to test more in multiplayer, for linking etc

The unmanned targetting turrets for the Turret Specialist. The code is there and working, just having problems trying to get the turret movement correct. It might need a complete re-write yet if I can't sort it out

Elite wrote:

...have extra levels of quickfoot been added to the beserker subclass for the next build as I could not see it in your post. As you said earlier the translocator would be more efficient, but what happens when you do not have a translocator like monster assault, you will be targeted more and your life expectancy will diminish as well.

I haven't done this yet. The Quickfoot ability is one of the original UT2004RPG abilities, so to increase the levels I have to subclass the ability to create a new one. Then we might run the risk of having players buying both quickfoots just like they buy both retaliations - so I am waiting for Druid to sort out the multiple-retaliation problem first. However, I am still not convinced they need extra quickfoot - it might make them too powerful.

Elite wrote:

As for the tank subclass, is there a level 3 ultima?

Not yet. I haven't seen it as a priority, as the number of Ultima kills is usually quite low.

Elite wrote:

And you mentioned making the monsters jump up instead of away from the tank subclass when it double jumps... why not the exact same effect titans have on players? Except the closer a monster is to the tank subclass, the more damage it might take?

I haven't got around to it yet.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ryuxen — GMT

Is there any chance in the next build you can let the players 100+ or 120+ to test the subclasses? I know lv requirement is 200 but Is there any way to low it down to 100 or 120? More players will get the chance to test the subclasses,and we will see what kind of bugs we are getting, like how is the server stability when a lot of players are using subclasses, lag, see how the game will change If everyone is a subclass maybe the monsters will die easly or maybe the game game will become easier. There will be a lot of factors in the game between 2 from 10 players using subclasses againts 10 players using subclasses in the game, maybe the gameplay will change, so how about we try out?? I guess in the next build there will be a lot of bugs fixed regarding Xp factors, so I guess If you let us try out the subclasses in the next patch there will not be so many Xp boosters for broken skills just like the lava skaarjs. And we will see how It will be like when all players are using subclasses how the Xp table will benefit more to a certain subclass. I mean Balancing Subclasses between them when almost all players are using them in a map or game. Sorry for my English O:)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Ryuxens idea does not sound too bad but if it were to be implemented then I think only the hybrids should be used at that low level as they seem the most balanced...the others still need more work and I would be hesitant to get those for the levels 100 for now

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Sorry, Druid isn't ready for it to be opened up yet. So the next build will apply the balancing fixes we have submitted. And the build after may or may not open it up. I am not yet sure what the level requirements ought to be for the subclasses. Initially I thought 80 for the hybrids and 100 for the extremes, but they may be a bit low. The other thought is that there is a Jack-of-all-trades class - inspiringly called "General". This has access to all the hybrid subclasses. It may be the next build releases this class.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Dracos — GMT

cribbage wrote:

This is an interesting situation, people commenting about how overpowered a monster master is. I totally agree that 3 of those things are way out of hand. I recently scored over 13K xp on a map with two bots and a low level eng (staying alive for me, but hiding behind blocks). I totally agree that the almost instant killing of titans (and anything else) is a balance issue. From what I understand, this will is going to be fixed; one red skaarj with less of a punch. So let me make some observations. The near-instant killing of titans has been around since before the inception of subclasses. WMs with a dd or trip and a piercing weapon (or pop gun) can clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys. AMs with that blue bolt thing can - bang, bang, bang - clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys. An Eng with a turret and a few linkers can clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys. Now, I say "just about" because I grant you that the reds obliterate everything in sight faster than anything else. But for lower level players, it doesn't matter whether its reds, or bolts, or turrets doing it, they still cant catch a break. Even before the subclasses, on certain maps with a certain mix of players, it was very difficult even for high level players to get any titan kills because they would drop like flies. For example, any map that an eng can set up a turret and see 90% of the map, its a good bet that there'll be one high scorer and a bunch of mediocre ones. With certain other smaller 1-1 maps, a good AM can trans back and forth between two areas with a rod knocking everything down. I guess my point is that, yes, the red guys are too strong. But people were quitting in disgust/discouragement before they came along and they will continue to do so after there is only one weakened red guy. I worked myself up from low levels like everyone else, watching someone else come bounding up and bolting down a titan I had just whittled down. Watching an energy beam come out of a speck in the distance and finish off the warlord I had just whittled down. Hearing a POP and watching the queen fall in front of me after I had just whittled it down. Now that I am on the other end of it, does it make me feel a bit guilty to have such an advantage? Yes. I look forward to the time when I get my xp the old fashioned way: fighting for it against the odds with an underpowered class and still being competitive. I am just curious about how this will play out once the MM has been "balanced" back to underpowered. We dont spawn with a medic weapon, while the eng spawns with their inf wep, and WMs get loaded weapons. We don't have resupply so if we manage to find a decent weapon we can use it for about 10 seconds before we have to find 3 more seconds of ammo for it. We can't make an infinite link any more. Our pets are painfully stupid. They get stuck behind blocks or in water traps. They fall off edges. They cant aim. They feel the need to waste time by doing their taunt move whenever something near them dies. It takes time to build up adren while an eng can build immediately to begin with and purchase fast build as an ability. WMs don't need to build anything, so they can save it all for berserk. I have rambled on here and I hope I am not misunderstood. Maybe I have vented a little. I am simply trying to point out my perspective on the balance issue. The red skaarjs were an attempt to give the MM some teeth and it was overdone. Once they are reined in, it seems like it's back to square one for MMs and I'll go back to fighting for my third of a level per map with my "too powerful" medic weapon.

I think the more reason why its allows such an advantage is that its AI vs AI instead of AI vs Player. That and often times I see the invasion monsters just ignore the Medic Pet thats beating up on it. Its not just the titans that contribute to the points but a lot from the later waves. We all know that AI cannot act exactly like a player can but they get the advantage of knowing where to shoot to lead a target to score a hit. You see it all the time with the Lightning Skarjii hunters that they can score hits on you pretty well at times. The lava Skarjii pets are no different as while they are limited in thier ability to dodge, they gain the advantage of getting hits more often. And with the Lava Goop, its very damaging. Also it doesnt seem the invasion monster's dont try to dodge the Lava Goops if thier not tracking that Lava Skarji in the first place so the monster just "runs" into the goop and dies. Oh and the Lava Titan. Make it happen, capt'n. Whats more scary then seeing a blood red Titan throwing huge red blobs of death at you.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Dracos wrote:

Oh and the Lava Titan. Make it happen, capt'n. Whats more scary then seeing a blood red Titan throwing huge red blobs of death at you.

How about the best of both worlds. Vampire Lava Skaarj. As they rack up the damage they grow in size until they are titan sized, then divide.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

(DC)DEMONSLAYER — GMT

Szlat wrote:

Dracos wrote:

Oh and the Lava Titan. Make it happen, capt'n. Whats more scary then seeing a blood red Titan throwing huge red blobs of death at you.
How about the best of both worlds. Vampire Lava Skaarj. As they rack up the damage they grow in size until they are titan sized, then divide.

Don't even go there...................

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

haha actually yes, that would provide a really neat challenge.... you should make it happen :) With all the subclasses going on... we have a character for every particular situation and map... there needs to be a monster that would counter that, wouldnt you guys think?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ryuxen — GMT

Well with the insane power that the berserker class has, I see no problem the Vampire Lava skaarjs will die before they even hit a player :))

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

dom60 — GMT

ok guys back off the zoloft !! or is it that you need to start taking it??? :-? :-? :-?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

greg11 — GMT

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

Szlat wrote:

Dracos wrote:

Oh and the Lava Titan. Make it happen, capt'n. Whats more scary then seeing a blood red Titan throwing huge red blobs of death at you.
How about the best of both worlds. Vampire Lava Skaarj. As they rack up the damage they grow in size until they are titan sized, then divide.
Don't even go there...................

Or maybe we can have certain monsters only spawn if certain players are on. (or just high level players in general)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Wail — GMT

Dracos wrote:

I think the more reason why its allows such an advantage is that its AI vs AI instead of AI vs Player. That and often times I see the invasion monsters just ignore the Medic Pet thats beating up on it. Its not just the titans that contribute to the points but a lot from the later waves. We all know that AI cannot act exactly like a player can but they get the advantage of knowing where to shoot to lead a target to score a hit. You see it all the time with the Lightning Skarjii hunters that they can score hits on you pretty well at times. The lava Skarjii pets are no different as while they are limited in thier ability to dodge, they gain the advantage of getting hits more often. And with the Lava Goop, its very damaging. Also it doesnt seem the invasion monster's dont try to dodge the Lava Goops if thier not tracking that Lava Skarji in the first place so the monster just "runs" into the goop and dies. Oh and the Lava Titan. Make it happen, capt'n. Whats more scary then seeing a blood red Titan throwing huge red blobs of death at you.

Well, I don't know about that. The computer targeting can be very accurate, but a good player is going to be on target most of the time anyway. I'd more point to "effort" and "risk" as reasons why monsters (in general) killing as well as players can is overpowered. Unless things have drastically changed regarding summoned monsters (I haven't tried out DC recently and am probably not high enough level there anyway to play with these things), summoning a monster is pretty fire-and-forget. The most you do is occasionally run by and heal them up, at all other times you can be off cowering in a corner as your monsters do all the work. Compare that to an AM or WM which require a certain amount of personal skill and also put themselves directly at risk by engaging in combat. It's a bit silly to think that this should be comparable in XP reward to pressing U on the keyboard and waiting for the XP to roll in.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

okay so what I have noticed regarding the beserker subclass and tank subclass are: They both seem to be inversely proportional when it comes to how they work. For the tank as your damage increases your firing speed decreases and as your armor increases your mobility also decreases. And as for the Beserker as your damage increases your armor decreases as well. Notice that the tank has two and the beserker only one. And here I see two problems, the first problem is the beserker's armor is deducted much differently than the tanks speed is. For example the beserker's armor is deducted from the already existing 50 points of damage reduction so in essence, the class has a little more armor than it should have. And as for the tank the speed is cut from the original speed not even putting into account the quickfoot. As a side note the tank subclass has no quickfoot ability to be bought. So I think either just make sure that the quickfoot cannot be bought on the tank subclass and also do not decrease the speed of the subclass further OR make sure that the beserker subclass will take more damage according to how much damage reduction they currently have. As you can see its a mismatch. The second problem I noticed is once you get a globe as the beserker the little armor they have is rendered useless... and since they have adrenaline surge, the class will be pouring in adrenaline consistently... hence the high scores for those who know the trick. You can have beserk on and the globe and still be pouring in adrenaline as long as you keep your killing streaks going.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Flak Monkey — GMT

A good AM can do the same...plus they have drip. We have to be lucky in finding artifacts and the AM spawns with them. Many times a stupid bot scoops up what I'm after before I get there.... So, if I'm the only player, I switch to DM and beat up on them for a bit in frustration. ;))

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Flak Monkey wrote:

A good AM can do the same

not necessarily, the AM's do not have that extra beserker damage, for an AM with the globe on it would take around 5 shots with a flak to kill a titan, with the Beserker only 2, not taking into account if they have a double damage which would reduce the number of shots by half.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

meaning a wink

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Clueless — GMT

The other day I was healing a level 6 player and realized that the numbers above his head were not increasing. Wayno also noticed this when he tried to heal the same little guy, and so we decided he must have accidently bought hardcore. Could we make it so that hardcore is not a choice for someone until they are a higher level? I suggest 41 (when we lose ghost and adren drip). Maybe by then these lower levels have spoken to others on the site and understand the severity of that purchase. ;))

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Clueless wrote:

The other day I was healing a level 6 player and realized that the numbers above his head were not increasing. Wayno also noticed this when he tried to heal the same little guy, and so we decided he must have accidently bought hardcore. Could we make it so that hardcore is not a choice for someone until they are a higher level? I suggest 41 (when we lose ghost and adren drip). Maybe by then these lower levels have spoken to others on the site and understand the severity of that purchase. ;))

After the next release, players who have bought hardcore should have a black bar above them so you know not to try to heal them. But putting a minimum level on is a good idea. Druid might overrule me, but I have put a minimum level of 100 on. By then, people long term will have access to the sell button, so they can sell it if they purchase it by accident. ....unless there is someone under level 100 who actually wants to buy it?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

(DC)DEMONSLAYER — GMT

Szlat wrote:

Clueless wrote:

The other day I was healing a level 6 player and realized that the numbers above his head were not increasing. Wayno also noticed this when he tried to heal the same little guy, and so we decided he must have accidently bought hardcore. Could we make it so that hardcore is not a choice for someone until they are a higher level? I suggest 41 (when we lose ghost and adren drip). Maybe by then these lower levels have spoken to others on the site and understand the severity of that purchase. ;))
After the next release, players who have bought hardcore should have a black bar above them so you know not to try to heal them. But putting a minimum level on is a good idea. Druid might overrule me, but I have put a minimum level of 100 on. By then, people long term will have access to the sell button, so they can sell it if they purchase it by accident. ....unless there is someone under level 100 who actually wants to buy it?

You gotta remember that some players think they're the greatest thing this side of pro, so they will take the hardcore just to prove it, regardless of level.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Elite wrote:

okay so what I have noticed regarding the beserker subclass and tank subclass are: They both seem to be inversely proportional when it comes to how they work. For the tank as your damage increases your firing speed decreases and as your armor increases your mobility also decreases. And as for the Beserker as your damage increases your armor decreases as well. Notice that the tank has two and the beserker only one. And here I see two problems, the first problem is the beserker's armor is deducted much differently than the tanks speed is. For example the beserker's armor is deducted from the already existing 50 points of damage reduction so in essence, the class has a little more armor than it should have. And as for the tank the speed is cut from the original speed not even putting into account the quickfoot. As a side note the tank subclass has no quickfoot ability to be bought. So I think either just make sure that the quickfoot cannot be bought on the tank subclass and also do not decrease the speed of the subclass further OR make sure that the beserker subclass will take more damage according to how much damage reduction they currently have. As you can see its a mismatch.

The two SubClasses are very different styles, so will affect what you can buy differently. Each one should be taken on its own merits, and balanced accordingly. If either is too strong they need nerfing, if too weak then boosting. It doesn't matter what any other subclass does. The Berserker SubClass concept is basically doing lots of damage but taking more as a consequence. The balance is to get it so the extra damage given is balanced by the extra damage taken. So if it is too powerful, either reduce the damage done or increase the damage taken. It is a relatively straight forward balance. With the Tank, the concept is of a heavy slow-moving slow-firing tank, that does lots of damage with each shot. It also gets hit a lot, but is well protected. This as you say has two abilities that need to be balanced - the extra protection against how slowly it moves, and the extra damage against the fire rate. Each of these needs to be balanced separately. I could let Tanks buy Quickfoot, in which case I would assume they have it, and so knock the tank speed down by an extra 50%. I didn't see the point. The main thing is that the Tank movement speed has to be balanced by the extra protection they get. And that is what I have tried to pitch it as. If it is wrong, then let's adjust it.

Elite wrote:

The second problem I noticed is once you get a globe as the beserker the little armor they have is rendered useless... and since they have adrenaline surge, the class will be pouring in adrenaline consistently... hence the high scores for those who know the trick. You can have beserk on and the globe and still be pouring in adrenaline as long as you keep your killing streaks going.

I hadn't thought about berserkers globing. I had allowed them Surge so they could run the berserk combo a lot - I thought it would fit more with the type of character. So, what do we think - remove surge or stop them picking up a globe, or leave it as it is?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Flak Monkey — GMT

Without the globe, we might as well find a good hiding spot from wave 12 on. And there is no guarantee we will find one by then anyways. The Berserker class I think is balanced. Ya we can deliver a mighty punch, but it doesn't take much to take us down either. So, like any other class, it's left up to the players skill to stay alive.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

Flak Monkey wrote:

Without the globe, we might as well find a good hiding spot from wave 12 on. And there is no guarantee we will find one by then anyways. The Berserker class I think is balanced. Ya we can deliver a mighty punch, but it doesn't take much to take us down either. So, like any other class, it's left up to the players skill to stay alive.

actually even without a globe (on the right map) wave 12 isn't too bad Shield Gun is Deadly with the speed combo as a Berserker I actually don't Berserk all that much they do great just getting close a BLAM two shots and anything is dead

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Flak Monkey — GMT

Shield is good for a few small closed in maps. I haven't tried it yet. Wide open maps where warlords get to fly around and bombard the area with rockets is murder. Anyway, haven't got to experiment too much with this class to find all what works and what doesn't as I'm trying to study for my next test. But one thing that I do know as it gave me new appreciation for protection weapons.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Spacey — GMT

You should have played DM or LMS with me back in the UT99 days. One of my favourite maps was Lilandri, where I would go back and forth between the various doors of the main hallway, stay there just long enough to lock and fire a trio of rockets, or shoot with the sniper, then go running for some other side passage. While rocket locks are lousy against flies and gasbags, they are great with players. And even the better players, who would hide a trans someplace and try to cheat death that way, could be killed if you could find their trans and kill it first. >:)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

TON80 — GMT

Szlat wrote:

Has anyone with the Extreme Monsters SubClass tried the commands AttackEnemy Follow Stay You will probably need to put them in your user.ini, like ..... home=AttackEnemy ..... Period=Stay .....

I'd like to see this work on individual pets instead of the whole group, like bot commands.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Aside from ghost 3 for the engineer specialists, I think they need shield regeneration if not the full levels at least some levels. Also since every time you type in suicide in the console it kills you right? and every time you type it when in a vehicle or turret it automatically ejects you with 1 health but not quite killing you... can this be put as an artifact of some sort for all engineers when making constructions. So instead of it being applied to oneself it is applied to anyone inside the turret. This could be the eject button all engineers are looking for, while not killing the person in the vehicle/turret there is a penalty for not listening and that is decreasing the health to 1... seems fair. I am just saying the decreasing to a health of 1 since it is already coded that way and changing that would mean more coding.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Wail — GMT

It'd be pretty easy to make an artifact that you could point at a turret and eject the player currently in there (Assuming turrets are actually vehicles - Seems likely?).

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Flak Monkey — GMT

LOL, use that in DM play to eject people out of their vehicles before they womp on ya..

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Elite wrote:

....... This could be the eject button all engineers are looking for, while not killing the person in the vehicle/turret there is a penalty for not listening and that is decreasing the health to 1... seems fair. I am just saying the decreasing to a health of 1 since it is already coded that way and changing that would mean more coding.

I have implemented an eject command - key bind to the word "Eject" - which will eject everyone from any vehicle or turret you have spawned. They will suffer no damage from the eject - unless the flying through the air from the eject hurts them. This should give you time to reclaim your vehicle.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

(DC)DEMONSLAYER — GMT

Szlat wrote:

Elite wrote:

....... This could be the eject button all engineers are looking for, while not killing the person in the vehicle/turret there is a penalty for not listening and that is decreasing the health to 1... seems fair. I am just saying the decreasing to a health of 1 since it is already coded that way and changing that would mean more coding.
I have implemented an eject command - key bind to the word "Eject" - which will eject everyone from any vehicle or turret you have spawned. They will suffer no damage from the eject - unless the flying through the air from the eject hurts them. This should give you time to reclaim your vehicle.

How about flying the "ejectee" into the nearest tree or wall?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

i liked more the damage idea.. but szlat is right..

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

here is the deal... i really dont think the berserker class i balanced.. at least not in my perspective.. i will try to explain my self. however dont expect too much.. i feel the zerker class IS balanced..but according to what? never in my entire life i havent seen a score over 4.3k ( sorry wrath) in a normal WM class.. at least not in the ammount that i have seen lately. i think the goal in sublclasses is to varay the game style. to make it simple if a engi class does an average of 2k, he should be able to do an average of 3k.. that is just not right.. maybe balanced in the concept of "yea, i have 1 more sentinel but i dont have turrets or vehicles," but not acording to other classes.. thats just my feel.. you can agree or disagree with me.. but you cant deny, some classes are just not used. (like tank) why? because is balanced but not powerfu enough like some others..) if subclasses were right.. people could easily pick any class and make the same points ( average.. im not against highscores.. god know how much enjoy them.. think about it szlat

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

The SubClasses should not be more powerful. If people are scoring on average higher with one subclass than they could with the base class, then the subclass must be nerfed. I do not see the full picture of what is happening scorewise. I am relying on you guys to tell me what is too weak and what is too powerful. There are a number of changes waiting to go live, which will change the balance of SubClasses. However, there isn't much changing to Berserkers at the moment. Are they too powerful? Are they regularly scoring too much?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ryuxen — GMT

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

here is the deal... i really dont think the berserker class i balanced.. at least not in my perspective.. i will try to explain my self. however dont expect too much.. i feel the zerker class IS balanced..but according to what? never in my entire life i havent seen a score over 4.3k ( sorry wrath) in a normal WM class.. at least not in the ammount that i have seen lately. i think the goal in sublclasses is to varay the game style. to make it simple if a engi class does an average of 2k, he should be able to do an average of 3k.. that is just not right.. maybe balanced in the concept of "yea, i have 1 more sentinel but i dont have turrets or vehicles," but not acording to other classes.. thats just my feel.. you can agree or disagree with me.. but you cant deny, some classes are just not used. (like tank) why? because is balanced but not powerfu enough like some others..) if subclasses were right.. people could easily pick any class and make the same points ( average.. im not against highscores.. god know how much enjoy them.. think about it szlat

Wow my friend!! You just read my mind, I wanted to say the same but couldnt find the words... Berserker class from my point of view is insanely overpowered, I know they suffer extra damage but, with all that insta kill damage and vampirism they are incredibly Gods againts other classes is like playing extreme monsters with 3 red skaarjs, insane damage. The wave 6 and 14 is from my point of view a wave where everyone have the chance to get nice exp from Titans but there is a risk they instant kill you with one rock, seems fair for me but when those waves arrives the berserkers just kill all the titans in a few minutes they only have to fire 4 times the flak cannon to kill a titan in a matter of seconds and If they are using berserker skill + lightning rod + double damage = less exp for other low levels and only leftovers. They are extremely fast, Damage is really high, they can run berserk combo anytime increasing their Damage, using Double damage or Triple with lightining rod or without it makes them more invencible they will feed their adrenaline issues with the kills and kill bonunes they get in the way. The main Idea of Subclasses is just to vary the play style not to make other classes weaker , just picture this in an entire game there are 20 people on and from those 20 there are 3 berserkers, what kind of exp the other classes would get if those berserkers are online doing insane damage, the newcomers and low levels only have to just camp in a corner and enjoy how they kill super mega fast. That class needs a nerf, is easy to point and shoot and kill without getting hit, and with quickfoot and airmaster wow they are like superman. Well Thats what I think, every head is a world. Dont take it in a bad way is just what I see.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

yes. zerker is balanced if we only see the zerker class. but when we look at the whole picture they are balanced but overpowerfull.. they are like red skaajars.. but faster, with better aim.. and sometimes even more powerful!.. sure flak monkey said it well they not always take a inv globe. however they kill really fast hence more more chances they get globe. and above that if they kill critters faster than the critter shoot.. then they get no damage.. sure nali and shield things might be a bane but from the damage they do.. they can recover

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

Szlat wrote:

The SubClasses should not be more powerful. If people are scoring on average higher with one subclass than they could with the base class, then the subclass must be nerfed. I do not see the full picture of what is happening scorewise. I am relying on you guys to tell me what is too weak and what is too powerful. There are a number of changes waiting to go live, which will change the balance of SubClasses. However, there isn't much changing to Berserkers at the moment. Are they too powerful? Are they regularly scoring too much?

i will post when ever i see one zerker.. however not many players get online when i do.. so far have seen only 1 time the tank ( it was elite, when the subclass came in) 1 time the weapon proficiency class ( road) and 2 times the extreme WM (cant recall names but i think it was mystic and the other road).. so far other class only wayno do the extreme medic ( judging from his EXP thats weak) and extreme AM ever1 is in it ( but that class is fine, maybe a little tweak) extreme Eng.. only elite, buster and astra (however he dont get online as much as i want .. only have seen him 3 times playing sent class) can play with it... so its hard to judge just look at this..

I wasn't going to post my Berzerker high scores but since Flak opened up this pandora's box ....

the next thing im going to say. is hard.. but i really need to take that off my chest if that dosent tell you anything.. then with all the respect.. you must be blind

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ryuxen — GMT

Imagine with 2 or 3 berserkers on, I wonder what kind of exp the other classes or newbies will get :))

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

OK, as a first step we will take Adrenal Surge off Berserkers. My thought in adding it was to allow them to berserk more, but if they are using it for running globe and triple, then I am not so keen. The Berserker class already has the pending nerf to not allow it to use the rod. If it then ends up too weak, we can rectify it.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Dr.Wayno — GMT

Since Para mentioned me, I will chime in with a comment about the extreme medic. I like it because it gives me a chance to do what a medic should do, which is frantically run around the map while all heck is breaking loose, blasting away with my medic weapon, not at all the baddies that assail me on the way but at all the players I come into contact with. Of course my score is on average about 1/8th to 1/10th of what I used to score with my 380+ level medic with no monsters (never saw a need, so I never bought). This is fine though because I can now score better where it counts, in XP. With my regular medic, the XP was okay, but I had to not heal on the titan waves and kill as much as I could just to get a decent amount. With the extreme medic, I can hide at the base and just try to keep people alive (though, as Clue is tired of hearing me say, it is hard to heal a rock in the face). Just like my regular medic, on some maps with some players, my extreme medic does well (with XP of course, not score), and on some maps with some players, I am lucky to get 1000 XP. On average though, I think I am getting around 2500 XP. This is a bit better than my regular medic by a few hundred on average, so I am happy with it. Especially since 90% of the XP is from healing. The one thing that is a bit annoying is being left as the last person on a map. Before, with my regular medic, it was near impossible for me to finish a map by myself. If I did finish the map, it was because the map was well suited for firing from hiding or I was channelling TON and expertly dodging fire while running like a mad man (TON is so good at that :-) ). Now with my extreme medic, firing is completely useless (it appears as if they do not even recongize I am firing at them (no blood splatter or sound)) unless I have some good piercing or vorpal weps (then the problem is ammo). Of course, I could just hide and wait for them to die if there are not too many left, but I feel like such a noob doing that. As far as special abilities, I really like the enhanced normal abilities (more experienced healing, less cost for healing blast), but I would like to have something like an artifact that would allow me to boost a players health by xxx amount (your choice) for a specific period of time like the remote double damage that an AM has. This would allow me "prep" a player who is about to jump from our hiding place out into the middle of a monster mob. It should cost a lot of adren so that it cannot be abused. If the one time health boost is too much, how about a remote booster, that would start booster running on the target person for a specific amount of time. Just ideas. Thanks for all hard work Szlat.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Flak Monkey — GMT

Ryuxen wrote:

Imagine with 2 or 3 berserkers on, I wonder what kind of exp the other classes or newbies will get :))

I would say this would happen....and there was no berserker playing at this time: Point being...anyone can get high scores given the right circumstances. So, nerfing the berserker sub by removing adren surge will definitely kill the class. I use that dren just as much for defense as offense. i.e. I need to heal myself when no health is available, without having the regen ability.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Ryuxen — GMT

Well taking a look at this, all the engineers were linking to a main turret Check Parasite he has a score of 5080 and Exp of 4937 Check Paycheck and Adair both have a bad score, maximum is 59 points but check their XP is about 3900 almost the same as the top player, They were linking to a main turret so they all got XP distribution, seems very fair for me. But lets take a look at my pic shall we? The main player Desert got a score of 4K and EXP of 7618!!! (:| Now take a look at the other players Ryuxen score is not bad and exp is average because I was running like crazy to kill all the monsters I just got in the way with my link gun alt fire and my sentinel. Still average exp but I did an exhausted job to get it like that. Now look qwert / greg kinda low exp and score Paycheck and Bosporus they have the lowest score/exp and look the time that they have been online playing the map, they have been almost the entire game and they have low exp. there is no exp distribution just like the pic of the engineers all the Exp is absorbed by the Berserker and only left overs for the low levels, for me thats unbalanced. Just imagine that u are a new player and you want to kill some monsters and you see 3 berserkers flying around killing all the monsters around you and u are walking faster to put a bullet in a monster and them whabaam!! a flak cannon from a berserker kill instanlty ur prey. As I can see only the berserker class will own and entire map getting insane XP. And poor for the new players or low levels I dont know when they are gonna level up if they cant get the exp from the berserkers. I see the berserker class is just like the MM with 3 red skaarjs.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

i will step out of the fight a big.. i just want to wait until zerker is released.. then paradoxx will be able to use it.... szlats. i thought zerker class is about doing damage and take some pain for it.. that was the main concept--but with globe.. the concept is just broken..

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

My stance is quite simple:

If one subclass typically scores higher than other subclasses, or the original classes, it should be nerfed

If a subclass typically scores lower than other subclasses, or the original classes, it should be strengthened Does anyone object to that? There are a lot of changes already pending to adjust the subclass balance - some nerfing like not allowing 3 lava skaarj, some making stronger like extra artifacts, and allowing awareness skills for hybrids. And I will continually try to adjust it to get the balance fairer and the game more fun for everyone. So, people defending the Berserker subclass as is, I ask can you score the same as easily with a plain WM? If you can, I will leave it as is. But in a way I have to ask - Surge is an AM ability, why should Berserkers have it more than anyone else? It is like saying anyone with a Rage weapon ought to get Surge? Removing Surge does not stop Berserkers running the globe. It just stops them running the globe for the whole wave. But I am also keeping my eye on Engineers. I think the "safe base with several people linking to a turret" may be just a bit too safe and easy to get xp. But this isn't a subclass balance issue as it applies to all engineer subclasses - it is a turret linking problem.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Dr.Wayno - thanks for the feedback. I like the way you get on and play the character.

Dr.Wayno wrote:

The one thing that is a bit annoying is being left as the last person on a map. Before, with my regular medic, it was near impossible for me to finish a map by myself. If I did finish the map, it was because the map was well suited for firing from hiding or I was channelling TON and expertly dodging fire while running like a mad man (TON is so good at that :-) ). Now with my extreme medic, firing is completely useless (it appears as if they do not even recognize I am firing at them (no blood splatter or sound)) unless I have some good piercing or vorpal weps (then the problem is ammo). Of course, I could just hide and wait for them to die if there are not too many left, but I feel like such a noob doing that.

It is very difficult stopping every one else getting themselves killed. There has been talk that perhaps an Extreme Medic ought to have something like the poison blast, since poison and medicine are two sides of the same coin. What do you think?

Dr.Wayno wrote:

As far as special abilities, I really like the enhanced normal abilities (more experienced healing, less cost for healing blast), but I would like to have something like an artifact that would allow me to boost a players health by xxx amount (your choice) for a specific period of time like the remote double damage that an AM has. This would allow me "prep" a player who is about to jump from our hiding place out into the middle of a monster mob. It should cost a lot of adren so that it cannot be abused. If the one time health boost is too much, how about a remote booster, that would start booster running on the target person for a specific amount of time. Just ideas.

I am not against adding something extra, but I am not sure yet that we have the right one? Prepping a player is difficult, as you don't always get extra warning they are about to go out. I am not sure about healing players above the +150 max, and if we are talking about getting them quickly up to that, then the Healing Blast already does it. Starting booster on the player but taking the adrenaline from you is a possiblility. So, using the healing sphere as the reference, since that is like a booster. For an Extreme Medic, the sphere costs 3.5 adrenaline per sec and can heal say 4 people for 15 health each, so around 17 health per adrenaline. So we could give Extreme Medics a "remote booster" artifact that costs 20 adrenaline to use, that will heal a single target player for 10 health a sec for 30 secs? Or would 20 health a sec for 15 secs be better?

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Dr.Wayno — GMT

I agree, poison blast might be a good idea for a high level medic left as the last one alive. During normal play (other lower levels still alive), the poison blast would not gain near as much xp as healing, so it would be like a last man standing artifact. I like the "remote booster" idea. It would basically be a way to put up a moving healing sphere for one person that moved around with that person. That is good because restricting the movement of other players is why i do not like using the normal healing sphere much. I like the 10 health for 30 secs.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

one problem here ! no one is posting the "kills" screen DW has been using the Rod on Mako, that and the Double Damage on Mako are a NASTY combination. that being siad I think the Berserker can generate enough Adren on multi-kills etc. to sustain its adren I'll change my Extreme WM to a Berserker tonight and test it out

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

synchronyze — GMT

Ryuxen wrote:

Now look qwert / greg kinda low exp and score.

You should also take into account greg was only on for the last 4 minutes of the game. Even 454 xp can be hard to get in the heat of the last couple waves, which may or may not also be the case with qwert. I'd also like to remind you Szlat is working with us on this. Balancing the classes is a rather big task, especially considering how many of them came out all at once. Have some faith that it will get sorted out. Most of all it takes trial and error, and seeing that builds come once every couple months it may take some time.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

The problem is that people like being overpowered.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

Szlat wrote:

The problem is that people like being overpowered.

:)) :)) the greed it burnses us OK tested the berserker last night minus adren surge,and not using rod or globe. first map was neck and neck with DWs' Berserker (no rod for him) the rest of the time I had no trouble maintaining adren ,staying alive after wave 12 it gets tough as long distance shooters; skaar sniper,warlords,even nali snipers do massive damage. IMHO the berserker doesn't need surge, nor should it be able to use the globe. With the Extreme Medic I agree with Wayno ,it is the true medic. The only problem I've come across is when there are multiple Engis on ; there Def sents prevent them from taking any damage and thus rendering the EMM pointless at times

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Flak Monkey — GMT

Well, maybe that is it... Total power corrupts totally. But, to the defense of this....I have only beat my high score with my berserker once and only by a few points...and no, it wasn't any easier than the first time. I die a lot now...and that makes it tough to get a high score. Odd though, we all used to cheer when people get these high scores, get into the 3k, 4k, 5k clubs...but nobody blamed the class on it before...just good players. Now all of a sudden it's an issue. Engineers are lucky to be able to link to a turret, be shielded from it and still get XP to level...no matter what level they are (except the guy in the turret of course) Of course, the situation needs to be there (as I mentioned before) But, I never had that. And when you get to that level where XP really means nothing..it's just how high a score can get cuz I have nothing else to buy. I'm just playing devil's advocate hear. Do I like the extra punch...oh ya..of course. Who wouldn't. But it already comes at a price. But if your going to start nerfing...one thing at a time please...dont start ripping hunks of things all at once or it will be like playing a low level player all the time, regardless of how much damage we deal. 1 tweek and see how it goes. (:|

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

...IMHO the berserker doesn't need surge, nor should it be able to use the globe.

Thanks for the feedback. At the moment, the changes to Berserker are not to let them use the Rod, and to remove Adrenal Surge, but still to let them use the Globe. Sound fair enough for the next test phase?

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

With the Extreme Medic ... The only problem I've come across is when there are multiple Engis on ; there Def sents prevent them from taking any damage and thus rendering the EMM pointless at times

Agreed. EMMs will work really well with the AM class & subclasses, less well with Engis and vampire-based classes. I can't do much about that :)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Flak Monkey wrote:

But, to the defense of this....I have only beat my high score with my berserker once and only by a few points...and no, it wasn't any easier than the first time. I die a lot now...and that makes it tough to get a high score.

The problem is I do not get a full picture of how things are. I have to go on feedback I get from others. This is the first input I have had that says Berserker is approx balanced. Comments like "it scores about the same as the straight WM class" are things I can work with. Comments like "please don't nerf it" give me less information. So thanks for the extra input. Believe me, if it is balanced I do not want to nerf it.

Flak Monkey wrote:

...... But if your going to start nerfing...one thing at a time please...dont start ripping hunks of things all at once or it will be like playing a low level player all the time, regardless of how much damage we deal. 1 tweek and see how it goes.

I understand where you are coming from on this. And if we were getting new builds every couple of days, then I might do it that way. At the moment, with builds being rare, I have to do what I can to guess where it will end up. If that means bouncing back again on the build after, then so be it. At the moment, the Berserker class is popular and, according to some, scoring too high. There is a generic nerf to take rod off all the extreme and specialist subclasses. But I am still concerned that they will have too much adrenaline. So I think let's try it and see. Remember, we are still in a testing phase. It has not been opened up yet to others, and will not be at the next build.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

Szlat wrote:

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

...IMHO the berserker doesn't need surge, nor should it be able to use the globe.
Thanks for the feedback. At the moment, the changes to Berserker are not to let them use the Rod, and to remove Adrenal Surge, but still to let them use the Globe. Sound fair enough for the next test phase?

sounds good to me (thanks again for all the hard work)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

greg11 — GMT

Szlat wrote:

The problem is I do not get a full picture of how things are. I have to go on feedback I get from others. This is the first input I have had that says Berserker is approx balanced. Comments like "it scores about the same as the straight WM class" are things I can work with. Comments like "please don't nerf it" give me less information. So thanks for the extra input. Believe me, if it is balanced I do not want to nerf it.

Kudos to you Szlat for having the energy to keep up with this. What if there was a server side mutator that records scoreboard data for each game. This way you can get some real statistics.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

HighwratH — GMT

That score of mine on Mako was a bit short of my high score, also done on Mako. That map is also notorious for a lot of Elite's high scores. Not to try to compare myself to Elite. THere is no comparison. I am level 700+ which is basically the only reason I score as well as I do, berzerker or no. Using my score as a reason for a sub-class being "over powered" doesn't make sense. If I go back to traditional WM my score and xp will diminish ever so slightly. Prior to sub-classes my high score was about 800 pts less, on Mako and I was in the mid 600s (yes I sometimes have way too much time on my hands). Over powered? Not at all. I'm not close to Elite's high scores and those he achieved before sub-classes as well. It's easy to see my scores or watch me and think I'm much better than I am because it's easy to forget I'm level 700+. All I'm concerned about is that some people are judging this sub-class based on the player who is 100 levels higher than everyone else. Weigh carefully. I'll go back my WM basic, back to being invulnerable and do a little less damage and let's see how over powered the berzerker really is.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

Don't get me wrong I don't think the Berserker is overpowered .I think it is just about perfect. The rod and adren surge just don't belong with the class as per its description. I love it! getting close to all your kills and splattering them all personal-like and quickly to boot ! >:) the ultimate hunt and kill class

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Flak Monkey — GMT

Just a side note... the difference between a level 700+ and lets say 350 is what...1500 spare XP that you cant spend. By 350, you have bought all that you can buy...now we are just hording XP... ;)) Just more time playing and getting better at it....I know, just had to point that out But ya got it right... Something I didnt take in consideration is that we are only in testing phases and only the top level players are getting to test them out. I dont think we are doing any better than we usually do with our standard characters (though it does force us to play differently to compensate). So with this change and just the top level characters getting high scores ( as they always do regardless of class) it's easy for the lower level players who don't get to experience this test on this side of the fence point fingers, not taking in consideration that, this is what they did before the sub class test already.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

nicely put Flak Monkey , none of my scores have been way out of whack in comparison to my normal scores I actually prefer my regular medic class to the extreme classes, and with the WM classes all the extreme classes do for me is make it more interesting again as I have to change my playing style to suit the class next up for me : TANK

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

next up for me : TANK

i celebrate that since the may task for players is to test.. and so far almost no one have put attention to other class other than zerker. and as i said, i wont give feed back.. at least for zerker class... and as i said paradoxx character will be ready to use subclasses... so i hope is balanced and not overpowered.. because if its.. that would be really bad. >:)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

RoadKill v3.4 — GMT

The story of the Turtle and the Rabbit (TANK vs. Berserker) Balance seems right to me ,I just can't play/shoot/aim as slow as the TANK requires :)) Extremely durable with maxed out regen/armor regen/vamp.Lotsa damage capability, just have to time your shots well (the Mini was the only weapon I could stomach as the Flak/Shock fired to slowly for my taste) I swear my head hurt I was moving so slow ;)

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

synchronyze — GMT

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

I swear my head hurt I was moving so slow ;)

It was almost painful to watch haha. It's a very good thing you get loaded weapons or it'd take FOREVER to get the ones you need.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

dom60 — GMT

where you try'n to use your mind to move faster???

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

CarnågeI°ÀM — GMT

Hay, new to forum, I play RPG on diff server in Australia, just reached lvl 200 so came looking for more info on subs and seen the posts on new atrifacts for extreme AM. how about a "bait" artifact, that once tossed draws monsters to it for say 5 seconds then explodes? or a "lightning sticky bomb" where you can toss out a single bomb, that sticks to a monster, on a wall or ground then acts like rod until the monster is dead, adren runs out or you turn it off, and it's is destroyed, (the tossed bomb, not the artifact) or maybe something like a denial Artifact, (if it's possible) where you spend say 500 adren on a weapon and that weapon is then "marked", any marked weapon has denial 1 time only, if you die you need to re-mark it. and on the weapon subject, what about a resupply atrifact... sucks adren and the rate of boots or mag and just resups all weapons at resup 5 or something. gives the AM a weapon aspect that is adren based. or even magic mod +2 just some ideas ;) ps. our server is a little different I may say something not related to druidsRPG in general

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Thè-Hättêr — GMT

CarnågeI°ÀM wrote:

or maybe something like a denial Artifact, (if it's possible) where you spend say 500 adren on a weapon and that weapon is then marked and if you die all marked weapons have denial... just some ideas ;)

our max adren is 250 :(

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

CarnågeI°ÀM — GMT

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

our max adren is 250 :(

ow dang... did not know :(, I don't think we have a max on adren, only DB ,DR & WS we have 23 waves too :), customised monsters... alien Vs predator waves 2 of em :) hard, fun.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

dom60 — GMT

PLEASE don't give Szlat any ideas about new types of MONSTERS!!!!!!!

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

synchronyze — GMT

I was looking at the hybrids for MM since those are what I'm closest to at the moment and I've been giving it some thought over the past couple dyas. The AM and WM hybrids look a little underpowered. They lose Advanced DR and monsters for either artifacts or weapons that are easy enough to find without the abilities. Granted you also gain resupply and if you die you don't have to refind the artifacts or weapons, but usually that isn't a problem. So essentially it's trading monsters/adr/healing blast for resupply and the guarantee of having weapons/basic artifacts when you die. As for making/maxing weapons it wouldn't quite be worth it without Denial. It seems like there should be one more level of LA to get beam/bolt to make up for losing monsters/healing blast. This would give more of a redmage feel to the AM/MM hybrid. For the WM/MM maybe a combination of ADB/ADR (5 of each?). Some players feel the WM should've had both ADB/ADR in the first place.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

synchronyze wrote:

For the WM/MM maybe a combination of ADB/ADR (5 of each?). Some players feel the WM should've had both ADB/ADR in the first place.

I have already brought this up and szlat has already implemented the changes into the next build see his posts and it should be there

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

synchronyze — GMT

I see also all the medic hybrids have been updated to have some monsters too. Slap me for not doing my research. Although I would still like to get beam instead of monsters personally; monsters aren't as fun.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

Sentinel specialists and I think one other subclass are the only subclasses that have barrels, was this intentional? If not shouldn't all the specialists be able to spawn barrels? Also when playing as a specialist i.e. vehicle specialist, I still get icons for destroy all sentinels and destroy all turrets even when the subclass is not allowed to spawn them. This happens with all 3 specialist classes. So its like extra icons for the specialists. And as I have been reading in the previous posts about the beserker subclass, there has been quite a frustration going on with it and its high scores which have caused the adrenaline surge to be removed from it. I was thinking since the subclass was meant for hit and run tactics with high chance of taking damage... why not re-enable the rod for them but disable the globe. That will make them more cautious in how to roam around and not just step into the line of fight, and without surge to back them up the rod won't last as long. The only waves the beserkers will still score massive points are on the titan waves since the targets are quite large, but it will make them more vulnerable to warlords and skaarj, its a trade off.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

TON80 — GMT

Szlat wrote:

Has anyone with the Extreme Monsters SubClass tried the commands AttackEnemy Follow Stay You will probably need to put them in your user.ini, like ..... home=AttackEnemy ..... Period=Stay .....

I've tried the commands, Stay and Follow seem to work as advertised. I can not get AttackEnemy to work though. It does not seem to affect the pets and does not echo onto the screen when the assigned key is pressed.

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Elite — GMT

you have to be aiming at the monsters in order for that command to work... it works like if it was the beam artifact Another route to go with the beserker would be as an opposite of the tank: the tank would get additional skills for sturdiness so it would move less when hit as it should for excessive armor and perhaps poison resistance of some sort. And for the beserker the opposite would be true it would move more when hit due to the less armor and be more susceptible to poison attacks... of course just ideas

Re:SubClass Balance Issues

Szlat — GMT

Can we log all future balance issue points to this thread please.