SubClass Balance Issues

Actually I side with you on this one Ratar, yes the extreme AM needs either denial or an energy artifact and perhaps a piercing artifact... but to make things balanced you can only make one weapon either a piercing weapon or an energy weapon. And the extreme AM almost impossible to kill is okay since its score is not excessively high, it balances out in the end but then again I did have 2 retaliations maxed out which might of helped increase my survival rate.

For the monster master... I agree we should be able to summon more of the same, like more than 3. As for the red skaarj why not switch monster points with the warlords... the warlords are not really that powerful to be worth 13 monster points. Perhaps if the warlords were worth 10 and the red skaarj 11 that would fix the problem since the max number of monster points are 30.

The Extreme WM definitely need something more...

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

Elite wrote:

The rod for the beserker subclass clearly needs to be taken out it takes advantage of the surge too much creating excess adrenaline, and increasing scores.

Ok.

Elite wrote:

The tank subclass is a little too slow, I think it's movement speed should be between normal speed and it's current speed. So it's not too fast and not too slow

At the moment it is half speed and half damage. If we make it 3/4 speed, then it might need to take 3/4 damage as well? I was after the concept of a slow heavy powerful slugger. Is it that moving that slow just doesn't fit your playing style?

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

Monster Master : three lava skaarj are just too many (they are killing machines)

Elite wrote:

As for the red skaarj why not switch monster points with the warlords... the warlords are not really that powerful to be worth 13 monster points. Perhaps if the warlords were worth 10 and the red skaarj 11 that would fix the problem since the max number of monster points are 30.

It is nice to see something outscoring Elite

I don't really want to change the warlords, as that affects the baance of non-subclass stuff. So perhaps the Red Skaarj get to be 15 points etc?

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

would like to be able to summon more "smaller" monsters .A small "murder" (term for flock of crows) of mantas would be cool

Elite wrote:

For the monster master... I agree we should be able to summon more of the same, like more than 3.

I didn't realise there was a limit of 3

I think that was put in to stop people spawning 10 pupae. I think I need input from Druid on this one. Each pet will put extra load on the server, with extra replication. It might be we have to leave it at 3.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

overall the subclasses need more space for upward expansion (with level requirements for sure)

I can easily do this by making e.g. BerserkerDamage be 40 points a level instead of 10. For each SubClass there has to be a point at which it balances with the other classes. This has to be its maximum power, otherwise we fall into the trap of SubClasses being more powerful than the original Classes - which I didn't want. But if we make it such that a Berserker has to get to be level 600 to be the same power as a level 300 WM, what's the point?

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

Elite was mentioning the Extreme AM is almost impossible to kill with energy shield at higher levels (was probably a huge adren drain though)

Is EnergyShield too powerful? However, the Extreme AM without adrenaline is dead, so if it did drain the adrenaline... So I need more feedback from you guys if it is too much or not.

On the Extreme AM:

Ratar_Killer wrote:

.... most AM's spend much of there time playing trying to get either a Energy or Piercing flak. then once made denial is key to keeping an AM safe and in adren. Seems to me that an extreme AM would need this feature. We could look at it another way... Eng have inf link...medics have medic artifact... how bout a energy artifact for Extreme AM's. Then I think denial wouldn't be an issue.

Elite wrote:

Actually I side with you on this one Ratar, yes the extreme AM needs either denial or an energy artifact and perhaps a piercing artifact... but to make things balanced you can only make one weapon either a piercing weapon or an energy weapon. And the extreme AM almost impossible to kill is okay since its score is not excessively high, it balances out in the end but then again I did have 2 retaliations maxed out which might of helped increase my survival rate.

You two guys have a lot more experience than I have, so I take on board what you say. However, the picture I had of the Extreme AM was more of a Mage character. Forget the weapons - they are there for desperation only - I was trying to pitch this SubClass so you would get say 10 weapon kills and 250 artifact kills. To be honest, I would have prefered to remove the MWM, Max, triple etc from this class. The rod and beam are already Piercing - why do you need a Piercing Weapon? Now it might need another level of Adrenal Surge, and perhaps a greater variety of offensive artifacts, but I wanted a completely different style of play. Forget the shooting things with weapons - all the other subclasses do that.

Both Ratar and Elite think the Extreme WM needs something more...Suggestions?

here is my penny..

im not a *high* level however elite let me use his link tower. i cant give you much impressions since i only used the link for few waves from 2-11..

i didnt play in the old days with the link tower, so my impressions have no point of reference therefore i cant say link tower is too powerfull or too weak. my impressions are not corrupted by old days-

when i first enter the tower i didnt liked since it was moving waaay to slow, but then i increased my dpi, and it was fine.

the beam.- this toy is nice, it dosent kill too fast not too slow. i really like it..BUT there is not all honey. the beam was waaayy to long. we where in ctf-hallofanubis i almost could reach the other end of the map ( i was at the point where a "star" in the floor beggin and i could reach past the last pillar.. so i dont know..

the plasma proyectile- i felt like this little things where just 1 hit k0, i mean yes yes i was geting some link power from elite ( just 1 link) but still.. the good point is that the plasma ball dont fire that often, but still, who need to fire often if you can kill them with 1 shoot..?

On the tank I also asked Zog and Desert what their opinions on the class were, and Desert said to increase the movement but Zog said to increase the shooting speed.

No the energy shield is fine for now, rocks still kill you instantly... but the other monsters just take longer to kill you

I still think it would be cool if the AM's could have an ability which was the opposite of repulsion which would suck in all the monsters at one point but dealing no damage, like a vortex

.

Elite wrote:

I still think it would be cool if the AM's could have an ability which was the opposite of repulsion which would suck in all the monsters at one point but dealing no damage, like a vortex .

I like the idea, but have the vortex BEHAVE like a real vortex (or black hole) and KILL monsters ;p Opposite of mega blast ;p Now THAT vortex idea would be awesome imho of course

When I refer to the Sub-classes I'm referring to the non-"extreme" classes the multi-class (old D&D term

)
I really like them but they are fairly weak at first try , the MM/Eng for example is a great support class but the class maxes out very quickly in its potential

The tank is VERY slow, almost crawling in regular movement ,on larger maps it would take forever to get to any monsters

oh and great work Szlat !

all the new sub-classes I've tried are fun and have great potential

The extreme WM cannot use the rod right? well at least the last time I checked they couldn't so why should any other extreme subclass have that privilege except the extreme AM of course. With that said having 3 red skaarj for the extreme monsters does not sound overpowered anymore. Perhaps we should see how the tweaks to that subclass work before actually taking out the 3rd skaarj and without the rod it shouldn't score too high.

For the engineers the sentinel specialist is clearly the most powerful but yet balanced it does not exceed in points or xp from the original engineer. The vehicle and turret specialist just score less and earn less xp. I think the vehicle specialist should get a vehicle damage bonus that only works within a vehicle and the turret specialist should get a turret damage bonus that only works within a turret. I don't think the sentinel specialist needs any bonus its good the way it is. Also the primary firing on the link turret is a tad slow, I asked people for their opinions and they agree.

The extreme ENG and WM need work, but more the extreme ENG it is too much like the original engineer

The vortex as a black hole that could work, I don't know if they would share the same interest but it would be nice

The barrels are not overpowered neither are the larger barrels, they can be spammed a lot though causing disgust among the players but it is balanced.

Szlat wrote:

However, the picture I had of the Extreme AM was more of a Mage character. Forget the weapons - they are there for desperation only - I was trying to pitch this SubClass so you would get say 10 weapon kills and 250 artifact kills. To be honest, I would have prefered to remove the MWM, Max, triple etc from this class. The rod and beam are already Piercing - why do you need a Piercing Weapon?

At level 300+ AM's just cannot kill anything without a piercing weapon. I have emptied a flak, mini and link into a gasbag and not taken out 1/4 of it's health.
Without the weapon, how are we to earn the adren to start a lightning spree?

BTW, wasn't surge or leech removed from sprees from lightning?

OK torture tested the Skilled WM with a Rage 10 flak tonight and didn't notice any real change in my score

I usually use multiple weaker weapons and get a similar score

maybe the Extreme WM and Skilled WM classes need Adv damage bonus

Or perhaps they should be combined? both the skilled weapons subclass and the extreme weaponmaster

Elite wrote:

On the tank I also asked Zog and Desert what their opinions on the class were, and Desert said to increase the movement but Zog said to increase the shooting speed.

I can increase the movement speed (and lower the protection), and increase the weapon speed (and decrease the damage), and so get less and less Tank like, and eventually you are back to a normal WM. I was pitching this class as being very slow, but very forceful. I might have overdone it, but I think it may be worth persevering for a while. To those used to the normal WM, it will feel very slow. It is more difficult to feel the extra protection and weapon damage.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

When I refer to the Sub-classes I'm referring to the non-"extreme" classes the multi-class (old D&D term )
I really like them but they are fairly weak at first try , the MM/Eng for example is a great support class but the class maxes out very quickly in its potential

Is there not enough to buy (i.e. the subclass is too weak compared with the mother class), or is what it can buy too cheap? The figures I have are the following number of levels per subclass. These may be slightly out, but will give a rough idea. The first figure is to totally max, the second is a "useful" max (main abilities plus fast weapon switch, plus stats)

Extreme AM 272 126
AM/MM 273 125
AM/Eng 277 128
WM/MM 279 131
AM Class 299 151
MM/Eng 311 163
AM/WM 303 154
WM/Eng 311 163
Extreme Medic 336 183
Tank 336 231
Berserker 342 196
WM Class 359 210
Skilled Weapons 374 226
Eng Class 384 222
Extreme WM 389 242
Sentinel Specialist 403 241
M/MM Class 404 249
Extreme Monsters 426 273
Extreme Eng 439 276
Turret Specialist 453 291
Vehicle Specialist 453 291

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

The tank is VERY slow, almost crawling in regular movement ,on larger maps it would take forever to get to any monsters

It is slow, as the Goliath is slower than the Manta.

Elite wrote:

The extreme WM cannot use the rod right? well at least the last time I checked they couldn't so why should any other extreme subclass have that privilege except the extreme AM of course. With that said having 3 red skaarj for the extreme monsters does not sound overpowered anymore. Perhaps we should see how the tweaks to that subclass work before actually taking out the 3rd skaarj and without the rod it shouldn't score too high.

So remove the rod from all but the Extreme AM. And leave the 3 lava skaarj for the moment.

Elite wrote:

... The vehicle and turret specialist just score less and earn less xp. I think the vehicle specialist should get a vehicle damage bonus that only works within a vehicle and the turret specialist should get a turret damage bonus that only works within a turret. I don't think the sentinel specialist needs any bonus its good the way it is. Also the primary firing on the link turret is a tad slow, I asked people for their opinions and they agree.

The Specialists already get a bonus for their particular type of fire - so e.g. Sentinel Specialists get +20% on sentinels. Both Turrets and Vehicles usually do damage of type "vehicle damage", so they have an bonus across both - but is a turret on a vehicle a turret or a vehicle? So I am happy lumping those two together. I can speed up the link turret if the feeling is I have nerfed too much.

Elite wrote:

The extreme ENG and WM need work, but more the extreme ENG it is too much like the original engineer

Perhaps a different list of things to spawn is required?

Elite wrote:

The barrels are not overpowered neither are the larger barrels, they can be spammed a lot though causing disgust among the players but it is balanced.

Suggestions?

Ratar_Killer wrote:

At level 300+ AM's just cannot kill anything without a piercing weapon. I have emptied a flak, mini and link into a gasbag and not taken out 1/4 of it's health. Without the weapon, how are we to earn the adren to start a lightning spree?

My initial testing was with Surge 4 and Drip 5, and even with my limited ability it was way too powerful - Adrenaline was always at Max and monsters were dying as soon as you saw them. So it might be the current maxes of Surge 3 and Drip 4 are not quite enough to sustain the Extreme AM

Szlat wrote:

My initial testing was with Surge 4 and Drip 5, and even with my limited ability it was way too powerful - Adrenaline was always at Max and monsters were dying as soon as you saw them. So it might be the current maxes of Surge 3 and Drip 4 are not quite enough to sustain the Extreme AM

Later today I'll try the style of play you describe and see how it goes.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

OK torture tested the Skilled WM with a Rage 10 flak tonight and didn't notice any real change in my score I usually use multiple weaker weapons and get a similar score

Thanks for the feedback. Do you know how many kills you got with the flak - that is the key to how much damage bonus you would be getting.

As you know, there are loads of things which affect your score e.g. was Elite on, and so there was nothing left to kill? Also, if it was high levels that were on, then a piercing weapon may have been a lot more effective than the rage one. Or because it was rage, did you spend more time looking for health since the Vampire wouldn't work?
One thing to remember is the bonus is based on the number of kills, not the weapon. So in the later waves you could drop the rage and pick up a piercing one instead and still keep the bonus as the flak kills would be the same.
Oh, and one more point. Remember to buy the Weapon Proficiency before Vampire, as then the vampire will act on the increased damage.

Ratar_Killer wrote:

Szlat wrote:

My initial testing was with Surge 4 and Drip 5, and even with my limited ability it was way too powerful - Adrenaline was always at Max and monsters were dying as soon as you saw them. So it might be the current maxes of Surge 3 and Drip 4 are not quite enough to sustain the Extreme AM

Later today I'll try the style of play you describe and see how it goes.

Wonderful thanks.
The different style of play does take some getting used to. And I may well have pitched it wrongly - partly it will depend on who else is on.
You will not be able to play like a WM in the thick of battle - you are too delicate, unless you want the Energy Shield to gobble all your adrenaline. But stand back a touch, and use the beam and see how you get on. The beam is often easiest to use where it is more predictable where the monsters will be e.g. coming through a doorway - but you are probably much better at aiming than I am.

I think for an Extreme AM the beam has only 0.25 secs between shots, and will do up to 400 damage. A titan kill for 900 health in 3 shots (no DB/DR to consider) will use 900/14 = 65 adrenaline. Surge 3 will give you 16*2.5 = 40 adrenaline back - so to keep it going you need the multikills. Or wait 12 secs between kills.

I haven't tried but if you can keybind such that a single click fires say a lightning gun at the same time as the beam, then even though the gun only does 30 or so damage, each shot will save you a couple of adrenaline. And if it is an energy weapon, then it will also help slightly. However, I found I was often using the translocator as a weapon for the instant kill.

Note the rod isn't any better for the Extreme AM than for anyone else - I felt it is too powerful to boost.

Szlat wrote:

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

OK torture tested the Skilled WM with a Rage 10 flak tonight and didn't notice any real change in my score I usually use multiple weaker weapons and get a similar score
Thanks for the feedback. Do you know how many kills you got with the flak - that is the key to how much damage bonus you would be getting.
Oh, and one more point. Remember to buy the Weapon Proficiency before Vampire, as then the vampire will act on the increased damage.

Pretty much all Flak kills a couple minigun to get health back up ,and I had a globe so health wasn't too much of an issue
Ratar came on later ,but on Seasons I usually have a "Season" to my self , and there were a fair amount of lower lvl players on
on the second I don't remember what order I purchased the skills will test some more