SubClass Balance Issues

Now the SubClasses have become available for test purposes for players level 200 or above, there are bound to be balance issues.
Can we discuss balance issues in this thread please.
e.g. this subclass is too strong because...
or this subclass would be better with this ability rather than this one....

Okay so Ill start with the WM first... I did not have the chance to test out all of them only 2

Berserker: It's very well balanced, in the few first waves this character dominates... of course you have to dodge very well, once you get to wave 12 surviving becomes very hard. The rod helps out tremendously. I was thinking if this class had extra quickfoot to compensate for the extra damage taken... because I find it not only challenging but fun to try and run away from hordes when I am at low health, but then I have to realize that not everyone has a keybind for the translocator for tight situations. So other than the quickfoot the subclass is good the way it is.

Tank: Fairly slow which is good, there is a bug however that I noticed. When you are frozen from a ice krall and then unfrozen your speed reverts to normal speed. I am not sure about null warlords or null queens but you might want to look into that. Also the thought of people trying to freeze themselves or null themselves with their own weapons in order to increase their speed to normal would be another glitch but I didn't test that yet. This subclass has more of a survivor role and not of a fighter. It can endure great damage, so I was thinking that if it could get another ability called shockwave. How this would work is when it double jumps and then lands it does a sort of a weak repulsion which deals a small amount of damage. This ability would be passive. Also another skill which I think should be improved is the ultima on this subclass... could the ultima be made more powerful wider radius perhaps? or detonate faster? This subclass needs a little more since it does not score as much as the other one can. Well those are my thoughts.

For the Engineer I tried the 3 specialty subclasses and the extreme subclass, note I did not see much difference between the extreme and the normal engineer.

Turret specialist: Fine everything seems balanced for now, except is it possible to test out the ion cannon as a turret? or is it out of the picture?

Vehicle specialist: Goliath and manta run great, the only thing that limits spawning is the out of bounds message. The manta has an edge over the goliath since it is smaller and more compact it rarely gets that message as for the goliath even when I am in a huge room it seems to get it. Also no lag issues with the goliath that I noticed. Is it possible to take out the out of bounds ONLY for the vehicles though so they could be spawned unless if they don't fit. And can the ion tank also be tested? Other than that the subclass is balanced.

Sentinel specialist: The 2 sentinels work fine, of course you have to run around and make sure you don't die in order for them to do their job. Didn't test out the energy wall, will do in time. And I don't know how many defense sentinels I can spawn will also test that. Other than that its balanced

I did notice on all the specialists and even extreme class that when I was buying everything over all the artifacts are messed up and not in order which could screw up the keybinds of some people. So as a result you have to reenter once you've bought all the things from the subclass you wanted. So in total you have to reenter 2 times. I don't know if thats the way it was meant or not.

As for the medics there needs to be some balancing issues but I am not quite sure as to what needs to be done

Healer master: This class is obviously a support role as stated before, although it maxes way TOO EARLY, while on the monster master i still have quite a few more skills to buy. I think as a healer you should be able to heal people temporarily above their max. For example 450 would be either 500 or 550 idk... but it would only be subjective to this subclass. Perhaps call it another skill in order to increase the level on which it maxes out. Needs some sort of new artifacts to make it more uniqe, I am tempted to say a resurrection type but it might mess up the gameplay.

Monster Master: This subclass clearly must not be able to heal itself or anyone else, maybe only its pets. The advanced damage reduction and the same damage the subclass deals (excluding the pets) is that the same of a normal medic. In other words you are playing as a normal medic without healing capabilities but with stronger pets. I think the sbuclass's pets are okay for now but not sure, but the player itself should be weaker, perhaps no advanced damage reduction on the player and absolutely no healing of oneself, make the player fragile to compensate for the strong pets.

And as a add-on might I say the great thing about the engineer subclasses is that they need each other in order to survive. For example the turret specialist needs the sentinel specialist for those tough waves this goes also for the vehicle specialist. This is something that the 2 medic subclasses are missing, they don't really need each other which is the problem. As for the AM, i did not test it enough to see any changes or balancing issues. Also I did not test any hybrid subclasses. There might be other bugs that I overlooked. This is all I have for now, I won't be able to test the rest until next week

. I hope this was helpful.

Thanks for the feedback Elite. You are really in a unique position for judging balance as you have high level players of a similar level of all classes. In fact, it might be worth you keeping a high score table for each subclass so we get an idea how it pans out? But probably use xp as the main levelling criteria rather than kills.

Elite wrote:

Berserker: ..... I was thinking if this class had extra quickfoot to compensate for the extra damage taken... because I find it not only challenging but fun to try and run away from hordes when I am at low health, but then I have to realize that not everyone has a keybind for the translocator for tight situations.

You are much better teleporting away. With the berserker damage ability, you suffer more damage the further you are away. So up close the monsters do double damage against you, but as you run away this increases to 4 times damage against you. So teleport, do not try to outrun them. However, if the quickfoot helps you dodge better, that could be a good addition.

Elite wrote:

Tank: .....It can endure great damage, so I was thinking that if it could get another ability called shockwave. How this would work is when it double jumps and then lands it does a sort of a weak repulsion which deals a small amount of damage. This ability would be passive. Also another skill which I think should be improved is the ultima on this subclass... could the ultima be made more powerful wider radius perhaps? or detonate faster? This subclass needs a little more since it does not score as much as the other one can.

Points noted. I am slightly reluctant to add more repulsion code due to the team kills generated by the repulsion artifact throwing titans onto other players, but it needs considering - perhaps just throw them up? Ultima more powerful sounds a good idea.

Elite wrote:

For the Engineer I tried the 3 specialty subclasses and the extreme subclass, note I did not see much difference between the extreme and the normal engineer.

At the moment the difference is extra construction health bonus and rapid build replacing the shield healing and regen. The extreme engineer also cannot pick up the rod, and gets +20% damage on vehicle/sentinel/turret damage with -20% damage on weapons. Long term, the extreme engineer could have a different list of spawnable items to the normal engineer.

Elite wrote:

Turret specialist: ... is it possible to test out the ion cannon as a turret?
Vehicle specialist: And can the ion tank also be tested?

Nothing is out of the picture, and for the specialists we do need some extra vehicle/turrets/sentinels. Just haven't got around to it yet. We need the balance feedback to work out how powerful any additions should be.

Elite wrote:

Vehicle specialist: ... the only thing that limits spawning is the out of bounds message. ..... Is it possible to take out the out of bounds ONLY for the vehicles though so they could be spawned unless if they don't fit.

Is this the out of bounds when you are in the vehicle, or the space size check when spawning?

Elite wrote:

I did notice on all the specialists and even extreme class that when I was buying everything over all the artifacts are messed up and not in order which could screw up the keybinds of some people...... I don't know if thats the way it was meant or not.

That is the way it has always worked, If you buy a new level of any of these abilities, the new artifacts get added at the end. It is just much worse here because you are buying multiple levels much more frequently - so rather than one game every 10,000 points being affected, it is everytime you buy a subclass. I will look into it.

Elite wrote:

As for the medics there needs to be some balancing issues but I am not quite sure as to what needs to be done....

As you say, more thought is required on these.

Thanks for your effort Elite.

Yes, for the beserker the extra quickfoot will help dodge better.
As for the engineers yes I was referring to the out of bounds message when you are in the vehicle.

I tried out the Skilled weapons subclass for the WM yesterday

Skilled Weapons: This subclass needs something to show how much a certain weapon has improved as noticed by ratar on another thread. Perhaps a different layout on the weapon to see which of the weapons is twice as strong or more and should keep its original magical value... ie: like the Null Entropy Flak +2 would be Enhanced Null Entropy Flak +2 and for every hundred kill or perhaps every 200 kills with one weapon the layout and name should change, so at the next level when the weapon does 3 times as much damage it should be called like Extreme Null Entropy Flak +2. These names in the front just to show the increase in strength of the weapon and possibly a different layout for both. I was also noticing that it takes quite some time to accumulate a number of kills with one weapon, usually its between 200-300 being the max. And this is where the balancing becomes difficult if 300 is averagely the max shouldn't 300 do 3 times as much damage? right now it only does 1.5 times more damage if I am correct... and not everyone uses just 1 weapon... I used the flak since it is the easiest to kill with the best resupply available, second best to kill would be the link but the resupply is just not fast enough. And perhaps a resupply 5 for those specific weapons that require it?

Also about hardcore ability, shouldn't it have a sound when people try to heal someone with that skill, in order to alert them that they are just wasting their time. For example when I played as my medic I followed sparky around looking at his bar unknowing at the time he had bought the skill. A sound that tells you every time you try to heal or shield someone that it isn't working. Just a thought.

Elite wrote:

Skilled Weapons: This subclass needs something to show how much a certain weapon has improved as noticed by ratar on another thread. Perhaps a different layout on the weapon to see which of the weapons is twice as strong or more and should keep its original magical value... ie: like the Null Entropy Flak +2 would be Enhanced Null Entropy Flak +2 and for every hundred kill or perhaps every 200 kills with one weapon the layout and name should change, so at the next level when the weapon does 3 times as much damage it should be called like Extreme Null Entropy Flak +2. These names in the front just to show the increase in strength of the weapon and possibly a different layout for both. I was also noticing that it takes quite some time to accumulate a number of kills with one weapon, usually its between 200-300 being the max. And this is where the balancing becomes difficult if 300 is averagely the max shouldn't 300 do 3 times as much damage? right now it only does 1.5 times more damage if I am correct...

I agree it ought to show that the weapon is better somehow - not sure how yet. 300 kills gives +150%, giving 2.5 times damage. Which is enough I think.

Elite wrote:

And perhaps a resupply 5 for those specific weapons that require it?

Not sure about that yet - its possible, but I am not sure - the skilled weapons doesn't mean they are firing faster.

Elite wrote:

Also about hardcore ability, shouldn't it have a sound when people try to heal someone with that skill, in order to alert them that they are just wasting their time. For example when I played as my medic I followed sparky around looking at his bar unknowing at the time he had bought the skill. A sound that tells you every time you try to heal or shield someone that it isn't working. Just a thought.

Something is needed agreed. How about removing the bar above them?

I was checking out the Monster master class and the loaded monsters maxes out at level 17 but yet you can buy 3 more levels until level 20 which in essence is just a waste of points. It does not give any new monsters of any sort, I checked. Also I think to make things more balanced between the monster master and the healer master, the monster master should only be able to purchase loaded medic 1 not 2, I played with level 1 and the subclass did very well just like normal... what that extra level is doing is just taking away healing xp from the healer master. Another thing is, I don't think this subclass should have regeneration, its pets are excessively strong with the advanced damage bonus and all. If this small fix is done I think the subclass should be fairly balanced for now.

I do realize that for the 3 specialists for the engineer they all have armor vamparism and armor regeneration... does the sentinel specialist need armor vamparism all the way up to 15? or around normal level 10?

Elite wrote:

I was checking out the Monster master class and the loaded monsters maxes out at level 17 but yet you can buy 3 more levels until level 20 which in essence is just a waste of points. It does not give any new monsters of any sort, I checked. Also I think to make things more balanced between the monster master and the healer master, the monster master should only be able to purchase loaded medic 1 not 2, I played with level 1 and the subclass did very well just like normal... what that extra level is doing is just taking away healing xp from the healer master. Another thing is, I don't think this subclass should have regeneration, its pets are excessively strong with the advanced damage bonus and all. If this small fix is done I think the subclass should be fairly balanced for now.

I do realize that for the 3 specialists for the engineer they all have armor vamparism and armor regeneration... does the sentinel specialist need armor vamparism all the way up to 15? or around normal level 10?

Thanks Elite. All these sound good to me, and I will tweak for the next build.The 20 levels do not give you extra monsters at the moment, so aren't really necessary, but it may be that we add others. Perhaps the lava skaarj ought to be level 20 anyway? Are you managing to outscore 2 lava skaarj?

Szlat wrote:

Elite wrote:

And perhaps a resupply 5 for those specific weapons that require it?

Not sure about that yet - its possible, but I am not sure - the skilled weapons doesn't mean they are firing faster.

I think the problem revolves more around the inherent issue with resupply and the faster firing weapons like the minigun and link. Even with resupply 4, it doesnt replenish nearly enough to sustain a longer use of these weapons with a maxxed out weapon speed and forget about it when combined with the Beserzk Combo. Weapons like the Flak, Rocket Launcher, etc, have near infinite ammo capabilities at Resupply 4 but the Mini and Link dont have near the same benefit as the rest.

Isnt like 20 mini bullets and Link shots at Resupply 4 while Flak is at 4 Rounds. But it takes much less time to go thru 20 mini bullets then it does for 4 Flak Rounds. I think Elite is meaning that with Resupply 5, it would allow more use out of the faster ammo eating weapons.

AM/WM
The first thought I had was it feels more WM than AM. But I think the sub class needs denial. Without surge or drip made weapons are even more important to save.

AM/Eng
Maxed out I could only biuld 1 lightning or 1 defense sentinal, not both.

Extreme AM
Also needs denial.

Thanks for the feedback Ratar.

Ratar_Killer wrote:

AM/WM
The first thought I had was it feels more WM than AM. But I think the sub class needs denial. Without surge or drip made weapons are even more important to save.

I suppose we could add denial 2, same as the WM has. I don't think level 3 denial goes with Loaded Weapons.

Ratar_Killer wrote:

AM/Eng
Maxed out I could only biuld 1 lightning or 1 defense sentinal, not both.

Only 8 points so only one sentinel yes. Two sentinels would be too powerful.

Ratar_Killer wrote:

Extreme AM
Also needs denial.

I am not in favour of Denial for the Extreme AM. I thin using adrenaline maxing weapons it is a waste. The Extreme AM only does 50% damage with weapons - the idea is to use the artifacts.
Stand in a room, face the doorway and beam everything that steps through. Just have to keep the multi-kills flowing.
If the subclass is not powerful enough, I'd prefer to beef up the artifacts, not make it more like a WM/AM.

Last night astra was spawning barrels everywhere. He was playing a sentinel specialist. There was no construction delay so it was like an endless barrage of explosions. Besides being extremely annoying for other players, it seems like a balance issue. With low level players playing it seemed to be killing everything pretty quick.

I am not a high enough level to test this, but maybe Elite can confirm it.

greg11 wrote:

Last night astra was spawning barrels everywhere. He was playing a sentinel specialist. There was no construction delay so it was like an endless barrage of explosions. Besides being extremely annoying for other players, it seems like a balance issue. With low level players playing it seemed to be killing everything pretty quick.

The normal barrels are not too bad, but the larger barrels will do more damage. I would expect there to be a 2-3 sec delay between barrels, since you have to throw the translocator. Although it is a big explosion, the barrel will only give half damage to a sentinel specialist, so each large barrel will give 150 damage. Depending on how close the monsters are to the barrel, he could cause 100-200 damage - which isn't excessive in 3 secs.

But the large explosions could be irritating.
Suggestions?

I will test out the barrels and see if it needs adjusting. So far I haven't tried spawning any barrels but I will, but spawning them quickly is normal due to the increase in rapid build.

The rod for the beserker subclass clearly needs to be taken out it takes advantage of the surge too much creating excess adrenaline, and increasing scores. As for now I do not know about the triple, you should leave it for now and see how it works without a rod.
The tank subclass is a little too slow, I think it's movement speed should be between normal speed and it's current speed. So it's not too fast and not too slow

Monster Master : three lava skaarj are just too many (they are killing machines)
I miss healing blast but it is good that it is gone
would like to be able to summon more "smaller" monsters .A small "murder" (term for flock of crows) of mantas would be cool
going to test maxed retaliation and two titans to see how that works

Extreme WM : Seems to be missing something but I need to play more without Elite there

and can still pick up the triple which is good

AM/WM : defiantly needs denial 2

overall the subclasses need more space for upward expansion (with level requirements for sure)

Elite was mentioning the Extreme AM is almost impossible to kill with energy shield at higher levels (was probably a huge adren drain though)

Szlat wrote:

I am not in favour of Denial for the Extreme AM. I thin using adrenaline maxing weapons it is a waste. The Extreme AM only does 50% damage with weapons - the idea is to use the artifacts.
Stand in a room, face the doorway and beam everything that steps through. Just have to keep the multi-kills flowing.
If the subclass is not powerful enough, I'd prefer to beef up the artifacts, not make it more like a WM/AM.

I get your point, But most AM's spend much of there time playing trying to get either a Energy or Piercing flak. then once made denial is key to keeping an AM safe and in adren. Seems to me that an extreme AM would need this feature. We could look at it another way... Eng have inf link...medics have medic artifact... how bout a energy artifact for Extreme AM's. Then I think denial wouldn't be an issue.

I'd like to see feedback from Spacey on this. Elite has a high AM but completely rocks on all classes, Spacey and I are about the same skill and would feel the effects possably in the same way. Not sure how many 200+ AM are out there.