SubClass Balance Issues

Imagine with 2 or 3 berserkers on, I wonder what kind of exp the other classes or newbies will get

OK, as a first step we will take Adrenal Surge off Berserkers. My thought in adding it was to allow them to berserk more, but if they are using it for running globe and triple, then I am not so keen.

The Berserker class already has the pending nerf to not allow it to use the rod.

If it then ends up too weak, we can rectify it.

Since Para mentioned me, I will chime in with a comment about the extreme medic. I like it because it gives me a chance to do what a medic should do, which is frantically run around the map while all heck is breaking loose, blasting away with my medic weapon, not at all the baddies that assail me on the way but at all the players I come into contact with.

Of course my score is on average about 1/8th to 1/10th of what I used to score with my 380+ level medic with no monsters (never saw a need, so I never bought). This is fine though because I can now score better where it counts, in XP. With my regular medic, the XP was okay, but I had to not heal on the titan waves and kill as much as I could just to get a decent amount. With the extreme medic, I can hide at the base and just try to keep people alive (though, as Clue is tired of hearing me say, it is hard to heal a rock in the face).

Just like my regular medic, on some maps with some players, my extreme medic does well (with XP of course, not score), and on some maps with some players, I am lucky to get 1000 XP. On average though, I think I am getting around 2500 XP. This is a bit better than my regular medic by a few hundred on average, so I am happy with it. Especially since 90% of the XP is from healing.

The one thing that is a bit annoying is being left as the last person on a map. Before, with my regular medic, it was near impossible for me to finish a map by myself. If I did finish the map, it was because the map was well suited for firing from hiding or I was channelling TON and expertly dodging fire while running like a mad man (TON is so good at that

). Now with my extreme medic, firing is completely useless (it appears as if they do not even recongize I am firing at them (no blood splatter or sound)) unless I have some good piercing or vorpal weps (then the problem is ammo). Of course, I could just hide and wait for them to die if there are not too many left, but I feel like such a noob doing that.

As far as special abilities, I really like the enhanced normal abilities (more experienced healing, less cost for healing blast), but I would like to have something like an artifact that would allow me to boost a players health by xxx amount (your choice) for a specific period of time like the remote double damage that an AM has. This would allow me "prep" a player who is about to jump from our hiding place out into the middle of a monster mob. It should cost a lot of adren so that it cannot be abused. If the one time health boost is too much, how about a remote booster, that would start booster running on the target person for a specific amount of time. Just ideas.

Thanks for all hard work Szlat.

Ryuxen wrote:

Imagine with 2 or 3 berserkers on, I wonder what kind of exp the other classes or newbies will get

I would say this would happen....and there was no berserker playing at this time:

Point being...anyone can get high scores given the right circumstances.

So, nerfing the berserker sub by removing adren surge will definitely kill the class. I use that dren just as much for defense as offense. i.e. I need to heal myself when no health is available, without having the regen ability.

Well taking a look at this, all the engineers were linking to a main turret
Check Parasite he has a score of 5080 and Exp of 4937
Check Paycheck and Adair both have a bad score, maximum is 59 points but check their XP is about 3900 almost the same as the top player,

They were linking to a main turret so they all got XP distribution, seems very fair for me.

But lets take a look at my pic shall we?

The main player Desert got a score of 4K and EXP of 7618!!!

Now take a look at the other players

Ryuxen score is not bad and exp is average because I was running like crazy to kill all the monsters I just got in the way with my link gun alt fire and my sentinel. Still average exp but I did an exhausted job to get it like that.

Now look qwert / greg kinda low exp and score
Paycheck and Bosporus they have the lowest score/exp and look the time that they have been online playing the map, they have been almost the entire game and they have low exp. there is no exp distribution just like the pic of the engineers all the Exp is absorbed by the Berserker and only left overs for the low levels, for me thats unbalanced.

Just imagine that u are a new player and you want to kill some monsters and you see 3 berserkers flying around killing all the monsters around you and u are walking faster to put a bullet in a monster and them whabaam!! a flak cannon from a berserker kill instanlty ur prey.
As I can see only the berserker class will own and entire map getting insane XP. And poor for the new players or low levels I dont know when they are gonna level up if they cant get the exp from the berserkers.
I see the berserker class is just like the MM with 3 red skaarjs.

i will step out of the fight a big.. i just want to wait until zerker is released.. then paradoxx will be able to use it....

szlats. i thought zerker class is about doing damage and take some pain for it.. that was the main concept--but with globe.. the concept is just broken..

My stance is quite simple:

If one subclass typically scores higher than other subclasses, or the original classes, it should be nerfed

If a subclass typically scores lower than other subclasses, or the original classes, it should be strengthened
Does anyone object to that?

There are a lot of changes already pending to adjust the subclass balance - some nerfing like not allowing 3 lava skaarj, some making stronger like extra artifacts, and allowing awareness skills for hybrids. And I will continually try to adjust it to get the balance fairer and the game more fun for everyone.

So, people defending the Berserker subclass as is, I ask can you score the same as easily with a plain WM? If you can, I will leave it as is.
But in a way I have to ask - Surge is an AM ability, why should Berserkers have it more than anyone else? It is like saying anyone with a Rage weapon ought to get Surge? Removing Surge does not stop Berserkers running the globe. It just stops them running the globe for the whole wave.

But I am also keeping my eye on Engineers. I think the "safe base with several people linking to a turret" may be just a bit too safe and easy to get xp. But this isn't a subclass balance issue as it applies to all engineer subclasses - it is a turret linking problem.

Dr.Wayno - thanks for the feedback. I like the way you get on and play the character.

Dr.Wayno wrote:

The one thing that is a bit annoying is being left as the last person on a map. Before, with my regular medic, it was near impossible for me to finish a map by myself. If I did finish the map, it was because the map was well suited for firing from hiding or I was channelling TON and expertly dodging fire while running like a mad man (TON is so good at that ). Now with my extreme medic, firing is completely useless (it appears as if they do not even recognize I am firing at them (no blood splatter or sound)) unless I have some good piercing or vorpal weps (then the problem is ammo). Of course, I could just hide and wait for them to die if there are not too many left, but I feel like such a noob doing that.

It is very difficult stopping every one else getting themselves killed. There has been talk that perhaps an Extreme Medic ought to have something like the poison blast, since poison and medicine are two sides of the same coin. What do you think?

Dr.Wayno wrote:

As far as special abilities, I really like the enhanced normal abilities (more experienced healing, less cost for healing blast), but I would like to have something like an artifact that would allow me to boost a players health by xxx amount (your choice) for a specific period of time like the remote double damage that an AM has. This would allow me "prep" a player who is about to jump from our hiding place out into the middle of a monster mob. It should cost a lot of adren so that it cannot be abused. If the one time health boost is too much, how about a remote booster, that would start booster running on the target person for a specific amount of time. Just ideas.

I am not against adding something extra, but I am not sure yet that we have the right one?
Prepping a player is difficult, as you don't always get extra warning they are about to go out. I am not sure about healing players above the +150 max, and if we are talking about getting them quickly up to that, then the Healing Blast already does it.
Starting booster on the player but taking the adrenaline from you is a possiblility. So, using the healing sphere as the reference, since that is like a booster. For an Extreme Medic, the sphere costs 3.5 adrenaline per sec and can heal say 4 people for 15 health each, so around 17 health per adrenaline. So we could give Extreme Medics a "remote booster" artifact that costs 20 adrenaline to use, that will heal a single target player for 10 health a sec for 30 secs? Or would 20 health a sec for 15 secs be better?

I agree, poison blast might be a good idea for a high level medic left as the last one alive. During normal play (other lower levels still alive), the poison blast would not gain near as much xp as healing, so it would be like a last man standing artifact.

I like the "remote booster" idea. It would basically be a way to put up a moving healing sphere for one person that moved around with that person. That is good because restricting the movement of other players is why i do not like using the normal healing sphere much. I like the 10 health for 30 secs.

one problem here !
no one is posting the "kills" screen DW has been using the Rod on Mako, that and the Double Damage on Mako are a NASTY combination.

that being siad I think the Berserker can generate enough Adren on multi-kills etc. to sustain its adren
I'll change my Extreme WM to a Berserker tonight and test it out

Ryuxen wrote:

Now look qwert / greg kinda low exp and score.

You should also take into account greg was only on for the last 4 minutes of the game. Even 454 xp can be hard to get in the heat of the last couple waves, which may or may not also be the case with qwert.

I'd also like to remind you Szlat is working with us on this. Balancing the classes is a rather big task, especially considering how many of them came out all at once. Have some faith that it will get sorted out. Most of all it takes trial and error, and seeing that builds come once every couple months it may take some time.

The problem is that people like being overpowered.

Szlat wrote:

The problem is that people like being overpowered.

the greed it burnses us

OK tested the berserker last night minus adren surge,and not using rod or globe.
first map was neck and neck with DWs' Berserker (no rod for him)
the rest of the time I had no trouble maintaining adren ,staying alive
after wave 12 it gets tough as long distance shooters; skaar sniper,warlords,even nali snipers do massive damage.
IMHO the berserker doesn't need surge, nor should it be able to use the globe.

With the Extreme Medic I agree with Wayno ,it is the true medic. The only problem I've come across is when there are multiple Engis on ; there Def sents prevent them from taking any damage and thus rendering the EMM pointless at times

Well, maybe that is it... Total power corrupts totally.

But, to the defense of this....I have only beat my high score with my berserker once and only by a few points...and no, it wasn't any easier than the first time. I die a lot now...and that makes it tough to get a high score.

Odd though, we all used to cheer when people get these high scores, get into the 3k, 4k, 5k clubs...but nobody blamed the class on it before...just good players. Now all of a sudden it's an issue.

Engineers are lucky to be able to link to a turret, be shielded from it and still get XP to level...no matter what level they are (except the guy in the turret of course) Of course, the situation needs to be there (as I mentioned before) But, I never had that. And when you get to that level where XP really means nothing..it's just how high a score can get cuz I have nothing else to buy.

I'm just playing devil's advocate hear. Do I like the extra punch...oh ya..of course. Who wouldn't. But it already comes at a price. But if your going to start nerfing...one thing at a time please...dont start ripping hunks of things all at once or it will be like playing a low level player all the time, regardless of how much damage we deal. 1 tweek and see how it goes.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

...IMHO the berserker doesn't need surge, nor should it be able to use the globe.

Thanks for the feedback. At the moment, the changes to Berserker are not to let them use the Rod, and to remove Adrenal Surge, but still to let them use the Globe. Sound fair enough for the next test phase?

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

With the Extreme Medic ... The only problem I've come across is when there are multiple Engis on ; there Def sents prevent them from taking any damage and thus rendering the EMM pointless at times

Agreed. EMMs will work really well with the AM class & subclasses, less well with Engis and vampire-based classes. I can't do much about that