SubClass Balance Issues

This is an interesting situation, people commenting about how overpowered a monster master is.

I totally agree that 3 of those things are way out of hand. I recently scored over 13K xp on a map with two bots and a low level eng (staying alive for me, but hiding behind blocks).

I totally agree that the almost instant killing of titans (and anything else) is a balance issue.

From what I understand, this will is going to be fixed; one red skaarj with less of a punch.

So let me make some observations. The near-instant killing of titans has been around since before the inception of subclasses. WMs with a dd or trip and a piercing weapon (or pop gun) can clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys. AMs with that blue bolt thing can - bang, bang, bang - clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys. An Eng with a turret and a few linkers can clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys.

Now, I say "just about" because I grant you that the reds obliterate everything in sight faster than anything else. But for lower level players, it doesn't matter whether its reds, or bolts, or turrets doing it, they still cant catch a break. Even before the subclasses, on certain maps with a certain mix of players, it was very difficult even for high level players to get any titan kills because they would drop like flies.

For example, any map that an eng can set up a turret and see 90% of the map, its a good bet that there'll be one high scorer and a bunch of mediocre ones. With certain other smaller 1-1 maps, a good AM can trans back and forth between two areas with a rod knocking everything down.

I guess my point is that, yes, the red guys are too strong. But people were quitting in disgust/discouragement before they came along and they will continue to do so after there is only one weakened red guy. I worked myself up from low levels like everyone else, watching someone else come bounding up and bolting down a titan I had just whittled down. Watching an energy beam come out of a speck in the distance and finish off the warlord I had just whittled down. Hearing a POP and watching the queen fall in front of me after I had just whittled it down.

Now that I am on the other end of it, does it make me feel a bit guilty to have such an advantage? Yes. I look forward to the time when I get my xp the old fashioned way: fighting for it against the odds with an underpowered class and still being competitive.

I am just curious about how this will play out once the MM has been "balanced" back to underpowered. We dont spawn with a medic weapon, while the eng spawns with their inf wep, and WMs get loaded weapons. We don't have resupply so if we manage to find a decent weapon we can use it for about 10 seconds before we have to find 3 more seconds of ammo for it. We can't make an infinite link any more. Our pets are painfully stupid. They get stuck behind blocks or in water traps. They fall off edges. They cant aim. They feel the need to waste time by doing their taunt move whenever something near them dies. It takes time to build up adren while an eng can build immediately to begin with and purchase fast build as an ability. WMs don't need to build anything, so they can save it all for berserk.

I have rambled on here and I hope I am not misunderstood. Maybe I have vented a little. I am simply trying to point out my perspective on the balance issue. The red skaarjs were an attempt to give the MM some teeth and it was overdone. Once they are reined in, it seems like it's back to square one for MMs and I'll go back to fighting for my third of a level per map with my "too powerful" medic weapon.

All feedback is gratefully received.

With the subclasses, the idea is to give variety, not more power. The different subclasses will be stronger than the classes at some things, and worse at others. We need to get them balanced.

The Extreme Monster subclass is too powerful at the moment, so it needs to be pulled back a bit. I have reduced it so you will only be able to get one red skaarj, but I haven't yet nerfed the red skaarj at all. We can then re-assess once it is live, and if it needs more power give it more - if it needs more nerfing, then we might need to nerf the red skaarj a bit.

I am not after any one class or subclass being more powerful than others. (By power, I think we probably have to rate by xp per map). So any subclass that scores too high has to come back a bit, and any that score too little has to be increased in power.

There are lots of pending changes. I think once these get live, we will need to keep a high score table for the subclasses to see how it needs balancing. But no point doing it yet.

greg11 wrote:

Since the lava skaarj can take out a titan in 2 hits, I think we need a lava titan added.

Lol, keep dreaming

it wont be any different from normal titans.. both are deadly..

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

it wont be any different from normal titans.. both are deadly..

But imagine instead of rocks they throw big globs of insta-kill goop that travel as quickly and accurately as the lava skaarj goop.

I do hope Druid does another update soon, though. The lava skaarj not only gobble all the xp, they like to jump between you and your target to absorb any fire that might have otherwise gotten you a couple xp. Whenever the lava pets appear I just leave... Or maybe people could stop using them since we already know they are overpowered and it's no longer "testing"... it would be a rather kind gesture to the rest of us..

Crib I feel your PAIN I actually use my medic MUCH less than I used to.
We do need to remember the medic class was designed to be a support class though.and it is the most forgiving class (you can always heal yourself)

I think 2 or 3 lava skaarj would be OK we just need to weaken their damage done (as Elite pointed out maybe 300% is too much)

most of your examples are AM issues I noticed ,and for a change I will defend the AM class I use the Beam/Bolt only in near death situations and have cut back my L-Rod use substantially
Mostly because I prefer making better weapons but also because I have spent enough time in your shoes and can't stand players using the Rod as their primary weapon is beyond irritating for other players who have to "hunt and kill".
While I understand it can be an AMs lifeblood it doesn't have to be (Don't be so lazy work for your points like everyone else! or at least be part of the team and use a sphere for everyone)
BUT it is a killing/dying machine as a class ,and takes more skill than many will use while playing it.

synchronyze wrote:

I do hope Druid does another update soon, though. The lava skaarj not only gobble all the xp, they like to jump between you and your target to absorb any fire that might have otherwise gotten you a couple xp. Whenever the lava pets appear I just leave... Or maybe people could stop using them since we already know they are overpowered and it's no longer "testing"... it would be a rather kind gesture to the rest of us..

Yeah Im agree with you

synchronyze wrote:

.....Whenever the lava pets appear I just leave... Or maybe people could stop using them since we already know they are overpowered and it's no longer "testing"... it would be a rather kind gesture to the rest of us..

I am with synchronyze here. Since it is now well documented that the 3 red skaarj are too powerful, what is the motive behind continuing to spawn 3? I don't mind each player doing it once, just so they can experience themselves that it is overpowered, but doing it all the time is just being selfish.

The subclasses are currently in test. It would be nice to get daily rebuilds to integrate changes, but unfortunately Druid is too busy at the moment, and so we have to work with what we have. After the next rebuild it might be a long time before another one. I would recommend that players would be better off testing how life is going to be if possible. So try playing Extreme Monsters with one red skaarj - if it is underpowered tell me now, not after the next rebuild when you might be stuck with it for months.

Same applies to all subclasses (but obviously where a subclass is having things added it can't be tested)

Szlat wrote:

The subclasses are currently in test. It would be nice to get daily rebuilds to integrate changes, but unfortunately Druid is too busy at the moment, and so we have to work with what we have. After the next rebuild it might be a long time before another one. I would recommend that players would be better off testing how life is going to be if possible. So try playing Extreme Monsters with one red skaarj - if it is underpowered tell me now, not after the next rebuild when you might be stuck with it for months.

Same applies to all subclasses (but obviously where a subclass is having things added it can't be tested)

You're currently working on the AM subclass with the fireball right? but out of curiosity have extra levels of quickfoot been added to the beserker subclass for the next build as I could not see it in your post. As you said earlier the translocator would be more efficient, but what happens when you do not have a translocator like monster assault, you will be targeted more and your life expectancy will diminish as well. As for the tank subclass, is there a level 3 ultima?

And you mentioned making the monsters jump up instead of away from the tank subclass when it double jumps... why not the exact same effect titans have on players? Except the closer a monster is to the tank subclass, the more damage it might take?

Elite wrote:

You're currently working on the AM subclass with the fireball right?

It is on my list. The three things I am actively working on now are

the out of bounds for vehicles and turrets. But I am not having much joy with tracking this down. It might have to be Druid that fixes this one later - unless someone else can spot where the problem is

The Ion Turret for Turret Specialists. Most of the coding is done, I just need to test more in multiplayer, for linking etc

The unmanned targetting turrets for the Turret Specialist. The code is there and working, just having problems trying to get the turret movement correct. It might need a complete re-write yet if I can't sort it out

Elite wrote:

...have extra levels of quickfoot been added to the beserker subclass for the next build as I could not see it in your post. As you said earlier the translocator would be more efficient, but what happens when you do not have a translocator like monster assault, you will be targeted more and your life expectancy will diminish as well.

I haven't done this yet. The Quickfoot ability is one of the original UT2004RPG abilities, so to increase the levels I have to subclass the ability to create a new one. Then we might run the risk of having players buying both quickfoots just like they buy both retaliations - so I am waiting for Druid to sort out the multiple-retaliation problem first. However, I am still not convinced they need extra quickfoot - it might make them too powerful.

Elite wrote:

As for the tank subclass, is there a level 3 ultima?

Not yet. I haven't seen it as a priority, as the number of Ultima kills is usually quite low.

Elite wrote:

And you mentioned making the monsters jump up instead of away from the tank subclass when it double jumps... why not the exact same effect titans have on players? Except the closer a monster is to the tank subclass, the more damage it might take?

I haven't got around to it yet.

Is there any chance in the next build you can let the players 100+ or 120+ to test the subclasses? I know lv requirement is 200 but Is there any way to low it down to 100 or 120?

More players will get the chance to test the subclasses,and we will see what kind of bugs we are getting, like how is the server stability when a lot of players are using subclasses, lag, see how the game will change If everyone is a subclass maybe the monsters will die easly or maybe the game game will become easier.

There will be a lot of factors in the game between 2 from 10 players using subclasses againts 10 players using subclasses in the game, maybe the gameplay will change, so how about we try out??

I guess in the next build there will be a lot of bugs fixed regarding Xp factors, so I guess If you let us try out the subclasses in the next patch there will not be so many Xp boosters for broken skills just like the lava skaarjs. And we will see how It will be like when all players are using subclasses how the Xp table will benefit more to a certain subclass.

I mean Balancing Subclasses between them when almost all players are using them in a map or game.

Sorry for my English

Ryuxens idea does not sound too bad but if it were to be implemented then I think only the hybrids should be used at that low level as they seem the most balanced...the others still need more work and I would be hesitant to get those for the levels 100 for now

Sorry, Druid isn't ready for it to be opened up yet.

So the next build will apply the balancing fixes we have submitted.

And the build after may or may not open it up. I am not yet sure what the level requirements ought to be for the subclasses. Initially I thought 80 for the hybrids and 100 for the extremes, but they may be a bit low.

The other thought is that there is a Jack-of-all-trades class - inspiringly called "General". This has access to all the hybrid subclasses. It may be the next build releases this class.

cribbage wrote:

This is an interesting situation, people commenting about how overpowered a monster master is.

I totally agree that 3 of those things are way out of hand. I recently scored over 13K xp on a map with two bots and a low level eng (staying alive for me, but hiding behind blocks).

I totally agree that the almost instant killing of titans (and anything else) is a balance issue.

From what I understand, this will is going to be fixed; one red skaarj with less of a punch.

So let me make some observations. The near-instant killing of titans has been around since before the inception of subclasses. WMs with a dd or trip and a piercing weapon (or pop gun) can clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys. AMs with that blue bolt thing can - bang, bang, bang - clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys. An Eng with a turret and a few linkers can clear out a room of titans just about as fast as 3 red guys.

Now, I say "just about" because I grant you that the reds obliterate everything in sight faster than anything else. But for lower level players, it doesn't matter whether its reds, or bolts, or turrets doing it, they still cant catch a break. Even before the subclasses, on certain maps with a certain mix of players, it was very difficult even for high level players to get any titan kills because they would drop like flies.

For example, any map that an eng can set up a turret and see 90% of the map, its a good bet that there'll be one high scorer and a bunch of mediocre ones. With certain other smaller 1-1 maps, a good AM can trans back and forth between two areas with a rod knocking everything down.

I guess my point is that, yes, the red guys are too strong. But people were quitting in disgust/discouragement before they came along and they will continue to do so after there is only one weakened red guy. I worked myself up from low levels like everyone else, watching someone else come bounding up and bolting down a titan I had just whittled down. Watching an energy beam come out of a speck in the distance and finish off the warlord I had just whittled down. Hearing a POP and watching the queen fall in front of me after I had just whittled it down.

Now that I am on the other end of it, does it make me feel a bit guilty to have such an advantage? Yes. I look forward to the time when I get my xp the old fashioned way: fighting for it against the odds with an underpowered class and still being competitive.

I am just curious about how this will play out once the MM has been "balanced" back to underpowered. We dont spawn with a medic weapon, while the eng spawns with their inf wep, and WMs get loaded weapons. We don't have resupply so if we manage to find a decent weapon we can use it for about 10 seconds before we have to find 3 more seconds of ammo for it. We can't make an infinite link any more. Our pets are painfully stupid. They get stuck behind blocks or in water traps. They fall off edges. They cant aim. They feel the need to waste time by doing their taunt move whenever something near them dies. It takes time to build up adren while an eng can build immediately to begin with and purchase fast build as an ability. WMs don't need to build anything, so they can save it all for berserk.

I have rambled on here and I hope I am not misunderstood. Maybe I have vented a little. I am simply trying to point out my perspective on the balance issue. The red skaarjs were an attempt to give the MM some teeth and it was overdone. Once they are reined in, it seems like it's back to square one for MMs and I'll go back to fighting for my third of a level per map with my "too powerful" medic weapon.

I think the more reason why its allows such an advantage is that its AI vs AI instead of AI vs Player. That and often times I see the invasion monsters just ignore the Medic Pet thats beating up on it. Its not just the titans that contribute to the points but a lot from the later waves. We all know that AI cannot act exactly like a player can but they get the advantage of knowing where to shoot to lead a target to score a hit. You see it all the time with the Lightning Skarjii hunters that they can score hits on you pretty well at times. The lava Skarjii pets are no different as while they are limited in thier ability to dodge, they gain the advantage of getting hits more often. And with the Lava Goop, its very damaging. Also it doesnt seem the invasion monster's dont try to dodge the Lava Goops if thier not tracking that Lava Skarji in the first place so the monster just "runs" into the goop and dies.

Oh and the Lava Titan. Make it happen, capt'n. Whats more scary then seeing a blood red Titan throwing huge red blobs of death at you.

Dracos wrote:

Oh and the Lava Titan. Make it happen, capt'n. Whats more scary then seeing a blood red Titan throwing huge red blobs of death at you.

How about the best of both worlds. Vampire Lava Skaarj. As they rack up the damage they grow in size until they are titan sized, then divide.