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SubClass Balance Issues in release 225  XML
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Trooper

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I got to be completely honest and say that when subclasses are released, a WM/AM is going to be the only one I would get... all of them make me lose things I want when I play the other characters
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Thè-Hättêr

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i dont know if this belongs here but here it goes

@szlat

Szlat wrote:
Changes to the spheres.

Firstly, both the Damage Sphere and Invulnerability Sphere were too good for the Extreme AM. Not only were they only paying half price for running them, but the spheres were also 1100 units in radius compared to 900 for normals AMs - which gives approx +50% on cross-sectional area. So Extreme AMs were getting 3x the benefit of normal AMs. The cost is now 3/4 that of a normal AM, so the Extreme AMs get approx double the benefit of AMs.

Then the Damage Sphere has changed. It no longer pays xp according to the number of people in the sphere. Instead, if a kill is made by someone who has double damage from the sphere, then the sphere owner gets a bonus 50% of the kill xp.

So for example if I start a sphere, and a player X is in the sphere, he will get the DD effect. If X kills a skaarj, which would give him 6 xp, X gets his 6 xp but I also get 3 xp. All spree bonuses just go to X.

The idea is the DD helps you kill twice as much, so the sphere creator gets a bonus of half the kill xp. So the xp reward is directly linked to the extra benefit it provides.

I wanted to do a similar thing for the invulnerability sphere - link it to the damage it prevents. But this is going to be a lot trickier since I can't get hold of the data. Since you are invulnerable, it doesn't bother processing the damage, unless it is friendly fire for some reason. It will take slightly longer to change this one. 


sounds fair, however i must say if this apply to damage sphere why not to the remote damage artifact. after all, all you get form remote damage is 10 exp.. which is pointless

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Alice: Of course not, but that's because it stays the same year for such a long time together.
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F8_AL

Rampage

Joined: 05/31/2008 05:21:22
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Doing the same for the invunrebility sphere may be exploitable. I could for instance continually run into titan rocks, which would deal massive damage to me and probably give me too much xp.

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Szlat

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F8_AL wrote:
Doing the same for the invunrebility sphere may be exploitable. I could for instance continually run into titan rocks, which would deal massive damage to me and probably give me too much xp. 
You do not get additional xp from the DD sphere for kills you make - only from kills others make. Likewise, you would not get xp from damage prevented to yourself, only to others.

In both cases, you have already had a direct benefit already - because of the DD you got the kill faster, and because of the inv you survived - so no extra xp on top.

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my post.

And there is a big hole in the RPG code such that if the damage is >1000, which it might well be for big titan rocks, then it bypasses the code granting the bonus.
Dracos

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I do gotta ask about the damage sphere xp though. Isnt XP on a damage basis and not a kill basis anyway. (10xp mob, every 10% of damage gives 1xp). So a person killing a half health Skaarj would only get 3 or 4 xp total since part of the xp was already given out to someone else that did damage to it.

Or it it already taken in account for this and basically every 2 xp that someone earns, the AM thats running the sphere gets 1 xp.

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Szlat

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Dracos wrote:
I do gotta ask about the damage sphere xp though. Isnt XP on a damage basis and not a kill basis anyway. (10xp mob, every 10% of damage gives 1xp). So a person killing a half health Skaarj would only get 3 or 4 xp total since part of the xp was already given out to someone else that did damage to it.

Or it it already taken in account for this and basically every 2 xp that someone earns, the AM thats running the sphere gets 1 xp. 
Agreed, XP for damage is given on a pro-rata basis, and not on the kill. The sphere creator gets nothing as the damage is being done, but gets his xp in a block on the kill.

I was being simplistic in my previous example, and did it for a one-shot kill.

So Player X in the sphere is firing at a skaarj of 150 health, worth 6 xp.
X does 50 damage and gets 2 xp for it, and the sphere creator gets nothing.
X fires again and does another 50 damage, gets 2 xp, and again the sphere creator gets nothing.
X fires again and does another 50 damage, killing it, and gets 2 xp for the damage (and gets 6 added to his score). At this point, the sphere creator gets (6/2) xp.

The reason is it is a lot easier to trap the kills than how mich damage has been done to an enemy.
Dracos

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Ah, so if Player X does 56 damage to a titan that had 56 health left and kills it, (1/16th of 900), player X would receive 1 XP (since it only had 1xp worth of xp left on it, and the Sphere user would receive the full 8 xp (16/2) as if player X had killed it from full health.

(Actually I think X would receive 2xp as it always seems to award the points the monster is worth in XP for damage and an additional bonus point for the kill, been awhile since I actually checked this)

The way it looks with the change is that the Sphere would give more XP for a smaller group (it would plateau sooner) and less if there was like 10+ people under the sphere due to lack of mobs to actually kill compared to a flat rate. Once your mob kill rate pretty much equals to the spawn rate and map size the the curve for xp gained plateaus out and any additional people in the orb wont provide really any extra XP.

Even if you have 2 people other then yourself in the sphere which currently would grant 2 xp per second would grant MORE xp if you had say Elite and Desert popping off monsters like titans every second each. (Given them Zerk combo and piercing flak and say goodnight )

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Szlat

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Agreed.

With more players, it may be worth running the sphere for shorter bursts. E.g. run for 5 secs, all monsters now dead so switch off, wait a while, then run for another 5 secs.

Which is different to the tactic now where they typically run until xp is drained.
Dracos

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For the Invuln. Sphere, I think the rate should be fine since it currently is almost twice the adrenal cost for 50% more XP over the current damage sphere model and doesn't really increase any kill speeds.

Current Invuln. Sphere:
18 (9) Adrenaline per second & 1.5 XP per sec per person
14 (28) seconds of run time granting 21 (42) XP per person for full 250 Adrenaline.

Current Damage Sphere:
10 (5) Adrenaline per second & 1.0 XP per sec per person
25 (50) seconds of run time granting 25 (50) XP per person for full 250 Adrenaline.


If you wanted to go ahead with changing it, it would prob be easier to just set it at a per hit basis (Like 4 XP anytime anyone in the sphere is damaged from a giant rock to a pupae hit) but how often are players hit would be the balancing factor.

Could also just lower the XP value to 1 instead of 1.5 to lower it a little if everyone goes from Damage Sphere to Invuln. Sphere.

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Szlat

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Dracos wrote:
If you wanted to go ahead with changing it, it would prob be easier to just set it at a per hit basis (Like 4 XP anytime anyone in the sphere is damaged from a giant rock to a pupae hit) but how often are players hit would be the balancing factor. 
The problem with how it is currently implemented is that the Inv sphere takes the simple step of setting the GodMode flag, embedded in the main UT code. Simple and consistent, and lots of code already checks for it.

Unfortunately, the UT TakeDamage code takes one look at the flag being set, and immediately returns back - it doesn't continue through all the other code we need it to. So we have no way of knowing when we are hit, because UT doesn't tell us.

So what I am planning to do is implement the sphere a different way. Instead of setting the GodMode flag, I am going to have an ability that can check if the player "is sphere invulnerable", and if so set the damage to zero and award some xp to the sphere creator.

There are two disadvantages to this.
a) The abilities are not always called e.g. from superweapon damage. So you are not guaranteed invulnerable in the sphere. But usually you will suffer no damage.
b) I need an ability on every player to trap the damage. Trying to temporarily add an ability for a while is not easy, so instead I will imbed the damage check in the RPGClass ability - so it will apply to anyone with a class.

So the only question left is how much xp to give. I suppose one comparison is how much xp medics get for healing the damage. In a maxed case this is 10% of the health. However, lots of players would have damage reduction or other abilities that might lessen the damage before it finally gets applied. So perhaps 5% is better. So if you get hit for a rocket of 100 damage, and the sphere nullifies it, then the sphere creator gets 5 xp.

I probably need to make sure the poison code behaves correctly
Dracos

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I gotta a question about one of the upcoming changes.

Rod damage reduced from 6 per adrenaline to 4 per adrenaline 


Thats a pretty significant nerf to the rod as that is a 40% nerf to rod's damage since it currently sits at 15% of the damage done. (Damage done being either 10% or 100 hp, whichever is less).
That puts the current rate at 6.666 damage per adrenaline up to a max cost of 15 adrenaline for 100 damage.

A drop to 4 damage per adrenaline would change the value to 25% of the damage done. That would set it at a max 25 adrenaline for 100 damage.

The loss of the triple was fine and not needed but lowering rod damage might kill it altogether save for wave 10 as ONE high hp mob would kill a maxed adrenaline pool in mere seconds (nearly twice as fast as current for 1 mob.)

Just a quick table
Code:
               |Rod |Curr|Upd.|
 Monster--|Life|Dmg.|Cost|Cost|
 ---------|----|----|----|----|
 Titan----|1200| 100|  15|  25|
 Queen----| 800|  80|  12|  20|
 Warlord--| 500|  50| 7.5|12.5|
 G. Gasbag| 600|  60|   9|  15| 
 L. Skaarj| 250|  25|3.75|6.25|
 Skaarj---| 150|  15|2.25|3.75|


If im not mistaken rod ticks about 2 to 3 times per second so 1 titan would consume an entire 250 adrenaline pool in about 3 seconds instead of over 5 currently. Of course why would anyone use rod with titans up is beyond me outside of the old triple it and pray method.

It would really hurt players that don't have increased adrenaline pools and because of the delay that you can't turn it off for a few seconds, they will find themselves with 0 adrenaline in an instant. If any form of basic nerf to it outside of the triple use was need, it prob should instead do less damage per tick. Because it works on a percent basis in all cases besides titans, it should if anything been changed to do 8% damage per tick instead of 10% with a max of 100. This would lower the killing power slightly but not make it a huge adrenaline hog for turning it on in an inoppurtune time. 8% of a mobs life would take 13 ticks of the rod to kill instead of the current 10 ticks outside of titans which would slow the kills down and perhaps decrease the spree's that feed it.

I just think increasing the adrenaline cost (by that much even) is just plain overkill to an artifact that already sucks adrenaline up very quickly on it own. Players with 100 base adrenaline will find themselves out of mana in an instant since rod is so adrenaline heavy as it is.

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Spacey

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First, I have to say that with all the repeated "X is too powerful, it needs to be nerfed" stuff is making things much less enjoyable for me. Let us be realistic for a moment... RPGs unbalance play, creating a situation where a level 500 player will **generally** outscore a level 250 player, who will in turn generally outscore a level 5 player. Yes, there are exceptions. But with a player of all three levels on, that is the way it will be. You should expect that higher level player to kill a monster in 1-2 shots which would, all else being the same, take the lower level player 10 or more shots to kill.

Secondly, I am concerned that as we go around nerfing X, we throw off other calculations. Be it the rod, the bolt, the beam, megablast or what ever, these are the items with which an extreme AM is **EXPECTED** to do the majority of their killing. As I have mentioned before... there is no ammo to run out of on turrets, sentinels or vehicles (or monsters for that matter)... and WMs have separate ammo supplies for each individual weapon, so they can switch back and forth between a flak and rocket with no worries about running the other out of ammo. But with the AM based attacks, especially for the EAM, everything they are supposed to be doing revolves around that single adren pool. I have lost track of the number of times I have run out of adren (say because part of my surge/leach has not occurred because of damage by another player, such as a Engi, Generalist, or Bezerker)... if I ghost, I hope my ultima manages to get me some adren, because when I ghost, it is the result of running out of adren. It is going to get better at the end of waves, where we will be "resupplied" with some adren, but still... if we nerf the damage done by an artifact, I hope the adren usage is nerfed at least to some degree along with it. Because if not, I think the result will be in people either ceasing to play certain classes like AM and EAM, or stop playing all together.

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Szlat

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Dracos wrote:
I gotta a question about one of the upcoming changes.

Rod damage reduced from 6 per adrenaline to 4 per adrenaline 


Thats a pretty significant nerf to the rod as that is a 40% nerf to rod's damage since it currently sits at 15% of the damage done. (Damage done being either 10% or 100 hp, whichever is less).
That puts the current rate at 6.666 damage per adrenaline up to a max cost of 15 adrenaline for 100 damage........

It would really hurt players that don't have increased adrenaline pools and because of the delay that you can't turn it off for a few seconds, they will find themselves with 0 adrenaline in an instant. If any form of basic nerf to it outside of the triple use was need, it prob should instead do less damage per tick. Because it works on a percent basis in all cases besides titans, it should if anything been changed to do 8% damage per tick instead of 10% with a max of 100. This would lower the killing power slightly but not make it a huge adrenaline hog for turning it on in an inoppurtune time. ....... 
As you say, the rod was 6.666 damage per adrenaline. The Bolt was 3 damage per adrenaline. The beam was 7 damage per adrenaline.
Why was the unaimed rod doing similar damage/adrenaline to the beam? That isn't balanced - the single shot have-to-aim-and-get-penalised-if-you-miss beam should be doing much more damage than the click-and-forget rod.
Why was the multi-hit rod doing more than double the damage/adrenaline of the single shot bolt?

So, to balance do I up the bolt and beam to match the rod (in which case if you are not an AM don't bother playing), or do I leave the bolt at 7 (aimed) and set the two unaimed ones both to 4? It has to be the latter.

Now if you insist, I can nerf the max damage it does as well?
Szlat

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Spacey wrote:
First, I have to say that with all the repeated "X is too powerful, it needs to be nerfed" stuff is making things much less enjoyable for me. 
This set of changes isn't so much about nerfing as changing. Some weapons do slightly less, but can be used with the triple. Some artifacts can now be used with the double. Yes the rod is nerfed, but yes you get more adrenaline between waves. Yes the piercing isn't as good, but all other weapons are better.

Spacey wrote:
Let us be realistic for a moment... RPGs unbalance play, creating a situation where a level 500 player will **generally** outscore a level 250 player, who will in turn generally outscore a level 5 player. Yes, there are exceptions. But with a player of all three levels on, that is the way it will be. You should expect that higher level player to kill a monster in 1-2 shots which would, all else being the same, take the lower level player 10 or more shots to kill. 
I agree a maxed player should generally outscore a lower level player (ignoring ability). I think 1-2 for high level compared to 10 for a low level is too extreme. Perhaps 1-2 compared to 3-5? I don't think anyone should be able to kill a titan in one shot (ignoring redeemer etc), so at least 2 for a high level, and a low level with a +4 flak should do it in 5.

Spacey wrote:
Secondly, I am concerned that as we go around nerfing X, we throw off other calculations. Be it the rod, the bolt, the beam, megablast or what ever, these are the items with which an extreme AM is **EXPECTED** to do the majority of their killing. As I have mentioned before... there is no ammo to run out of on turrets, sentinels or vehicles (or monsters for that matter)... and WMs have separate ammo supplies for each individual weapon, so they can switch back and forth between a flak and rocket with no worries about running the other out of ammo. But with the AM based attacks, especially for the EAM, everything they are supposed to be doing revolves around that single adren pool. I have lost track of the number of times I have run out of adren (say because part of my surge/leach has not occurred because of damage by another player, such as a Engi, Generalist, or Bezerker)... if I ghost, I hope my ultima manages to get me some adren, because when I ghost, it is the result of running out of adren. It is going to get better at the end of waves, where we will be "resupplied" with some adren, but still... if we nerf the damage done by an artifact, I hope the adren usage is nerfed at least to some degree along with it. Because if not, I think the result will be in people either ceasing to play certain classes like AM and EAM, or stop playing all together. 
The AM and EAM are not nerfed by these changes. The extra adrenaline makes a big difference - as will allowing bolt/beam to be used with the DD.
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i agree with Spacey..


its a must that we make a chart knowing how much damage DPS for each weapon to know how good how bad they are.

after that we must make another chart with DPS for each artifact (aimed artifact)

then make yet another chart with DPs for a unaimed artifact (or every 10 or so seconds for timed artifacts)..


then we will see the things as really are..

i cant agree more with Spacey.. between Spacey and me,we have been playing AM for a while, and i cant agree more with him.. there are times that i run out of adren and when that happens we die..sure there is 1 difference im a normal AM and he is EAM.

sure you can say that in the next build AM will get more adren, true but or killing artifacts say beam bolt and rod have been nerfed so now we need more adren to kill a beast, and i expect not get many mega and beyond kills.. cleaver players will stay close to me, since i cant kill skaajars in 1 shot they will wait for me to deal some damage and they get the points/adrens, while i get nothing.

AM is a really difficult class, you should know it szlat and there should be a reward after it dont you think?

sure elite has proven me that using rod and triple is self sustanaible adren supply. but i think the triple should get the nerf not the rod..

why?

after all the problem that i feel is that in EAM triple+rod is too powerful. (cant agree or say no i dont have a EAM yet) but in AM triple +rod is powerfull yep but last few seconds and if trigger not right u end with no adren and as i pointed before you die.

if szlat nerf the triple the am will have a harder time to use rod+triple and same with EAM. other characters wont feel it too much since from next build their weapons will have a greater damage bonus and a bit of piercing.

AM's and EAM will still have their weapons.
@szlat
if the issue with Rod is people doing +200 kills in a map?
if so then i a high lvl player can make +200 kills with a vop shock? or a p flak. then should we nerf it?

"Only a few find the way, some don't recognise it when they do, some don't ever want to."

Cheshire, The Cat


Alice and the Hatter: Quotes: Alice in Wonderland
Alice: What a funny watch! It tells the day of the month, and it doesn't tell what o'clock it is!
The Hatter: Why should it? Does your watch tell you what year it is?
Alice: Of course not, but that's because it stays the same year for such a long time together.
The Hatter: …which is just the case with mine.


HERE IS MY NEW SKIN ... please take time to download it
MY SKIN--

thanks road

working on a new skill please support and advice would be great
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