SubClass Balance Issues in release 225

HighwratH wrote:

I can't help but wonder how my playtime might effect those numbers. Being as there are only 6 distinct players on their berzerkers, that fact that I log a lot of game time and only play berzerker (Desert_wrath). Note the average player level. What happens if you subtract my stats from that list? I would hate to see zerkers nerfed or otherwise tweaked because of my zerker addiction.

Oh and Szlat, if you do check on my playing time please don't share it with me, I don't want to know

Better yet, don't tell him, just tell his wife............

Ryuxen wrote:

....The real balance starts when all people choose a subclass.

Now you will see real numbers there.

My idea is to release the subclasses to public and you will se the balance u have to make on them.

The subclasses are intended for release to levels 80+ when the next build is done.
I agree we will get more data then. And I will need to balance the subclasses for the 80-200 levls players based on that feedback.

However, there will still be the question of balancing the subclasses for the level 200+ players. And that can be tackled now.

If you are going to nerf the spheres for an AM, dont nerf the xp gain per person in the sphere. At the moment, it is a great way for weak low lvl AMs to get some xp. I would suggest adding a cut off limit to the xp per second, so for example when 10 people are in the sphere, you only get the xp as if there were 4 people. This way it wouldnt stop it being usefull for low lvl AMs who can only hide in a base past wave 10 scoreing very little xp regardless of who or how many people are on the map.

To summarise some of the first suggestions then:

Berserker. Perhaps a minimum of double damage is too high
My initial idea was that if berserkers are close up they do lots of damage, and if they are further from the action they get hurt more. I don't particularly want to nerf it - how about making it more extreme? Perhaps instead of a range of 2x to 4x, we ought to go for 1x to 4x. So up close they do 4x damage still, but only get 1x hurt, but further away they do 1x damage and get 4x hurt? So sitting back sniping no real benefit. In the thick of it even stronger?

Extreme AMs need more resupply
The weapons for an Extreme AM have been nerfed to force him to use adrenaline offensively. I am not sure more resupply of ammo will help significantly, since the weapons do little damage.

Extreme AMs should have adrenaline resupplied between waves
Ok, why not. I could just tie it into Adrenal Drip, but AMs max very early - so I think a new skill, say granting back 5% of max adrenaline per level. Normal AMs to be able to buy 5 levels, Extreme AMs perhaps 10?

Perhaps tweak down xp gains for spheres for the Extreme AM
OK. (See post following F8_ALs subsequent post.)

Tank needs a "monster magnet" to attract enemies
A Monster Magnet could be difficult to implement, and cause all sorts of extra problems. The problem is the tank is too slow to get where the enemies are. But it is much faster than a sentinel or turret, and they get good scores? And the fastest way to travel is to trans, and that works at the same speed. So not sure what to do here. Anyone got more feedback about why this is worse than a turret?

F8_AL wrote:

If you are going to nerf the spheres for an AM, dont nerf the xp gain per person in the sphere. At the moment, it is a great way for weak low lvl AMs to get some xp. I would suggest adding a cut off limit to the xp per second, so for example when 10 people are in the sphere, you only get the xp as if there were 4 people. This way it wouldnt stop it being usefull for low lvl AMs who can only hide in a base past wave 10 scoreing very little xp regardless of who or how many people are on the map.

Ok. Extreme AMs can run the spheres cheaper than normal AMs. We could just reduce this bonus, which would reduce the time an Extreme AM can run the sphere.
However, I do see players running damage spheres between waves to get xp - it is of no use to the players. If low level AMs are doing the same - running the sphere just to get xp rather than to help the team, I might need to change the reward system - e.g. so you get an xp benefit based on the extra damage done by the team.

That would be a good idea, but if possible, make it favour low lvl AMs, as i think they have a muich harder time compared to other classes at that lvl.

another possibility discussed in the server was having the damage sphere give xp similar to linking to a player... giving xp based on how much damage those inside are doing. similarly, the invulnerability sphere giving xp based on how much damage was negated.

for extreme AMs, another thing discussed was instead of an auto resupply of adren, have the AM capable of creating a weapon similar to the medic... costs adren to get an infinite "energy weapon". has the damage of, say, vanilla -6 but gives adren like energy 5, just for some example numbers. low damage from the weapon itself but relatively high adren gain. meant to give adren while still making the EAM have low weapon damage

That sounds like a good idea trooper, it would force the XAM to actually work for the adren, as i have seen some XAMs just standing still in a base getting masses of xp wtihout even fighting. if they always had a high energy wep instead of such high drip, they would work for the adren.

F8_AL wrote:

That sounds like a good idea trooper, it would force the XAM to actually work for the adren, as i have seen some XAMs just standing still in a base getting masses of xp wtihout even fighting. if they always had a high energy wep instead of such high drip, they would work for the adren.

Quick reply here, as I have an therapy appointment to get ready for, and it is not as well thought out, but.... I have no problems with a weapon like that, but do that afterwards, and perhaps in parallel with addressing the fact that WMs automatically start the wave with a certain amount of free ammo on all 10+ different weapons, while AMs start the wave with whatever amount of their ammo (e.g. adren) they ended the previous wave with.

As for a new skill, a part of me is thinking "Oooo...goodie... something on which to spend my XP"... but then, I think... "wait a sec..."... I bought drip, which is just like resupply for the WM... why should this not be a natural part of drip, say coming into play at the higher levels?? Or, perhaps triggered by something like EAM (I would just say higher levels of AM).

On the sphere, my suggestion of nerfing could be either a rate reduction or a cap... does not really matter. I think knowing more about those extreme instances (e.g. was it Elite standing in the middle of 10 Engi's linking turrets?) is almost essential. If they are curve breakers, clear out at the extremes of what we will normally see, then it is IMO less of a problem than if it is doable by a level 80 AM consistently.

as with what others have said I believe that you should wait and see how the general population of DC plays these before tweaking them much more since it is the 200+ players playing them. I have been trying to keeps tabs on this new set of char's just like watching the eng when they 1st came out! what I have seen/read they are fairly balanced and may need a few small tweaks, BUT when you do the release you might find that you have to undo the last tweak or scale it back some!

So my suggestion is to leave them alone and see what happens when everyone else can play them and after a good solid month or so run thru the stats again and get the poll on whats going on,that should save you a lot of time and headache.

just my 2 cents worth

and yes toss elite out!!!! we don't want his kind here! LMAO!!!!

For the AM class I agree with the idea of making the sphere based on the damage dealt by the players within it, and for the inv sphere making it damage based as well by the damage being dealt to each individual within the sphere

Im agree with Dom60`s point.

Perhaps there is a mis-understanding going on here.

The release of the next build is entirely in Druid's hands. I have no say - other wise it would have been at least six weeks ago. The current situation is when the next build is released, the subclasses will be available to players level 80 and above (Hybrids 80, Extremes 130, Others 150).

The changes I am discussing now may or may not make it into the next build. It depends on when I get them done, and when Druid does the build. I am not delaying the build discussing this.

And when the mid levels have played with the subclasses for a while, we will need to rebalance them for the mid levels.

and I still say TOSS elite OUT!!!!!

dom60 wrote:

and I still say TOSS elite OUT!!!!!

Na... just stick him in the game with no weapons/artifacts, no way to get them, etc. Let the bugs have their say!