SubClass Balance Issues in release 225

Can we log here all balance issues with the subclasses with the 225 release. Thanks.
( Bugs go in a different thread )

In the latest release I put some logging code to get a rough idea of how the classes are balanced. So I now have about a month's worth of data. The logging doesn't capture all entries, and I don't get all the logs from DC, so it is not a complete record - so please do not tell me your high score isn't there. I am also only showing the XP score not the game score, as that is what I am interested in from a balance point of view. I currently have over 20,000 score logs.

EDIT: figures updated 1st August, at the end of the 225 trial.

Looking at the XP scores we have recorded, I have limited the selection to players that have been on the map for at least 20 mins

Level 41-50
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin MaxXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed AverageLevel DistinctPlayers
 -------------------- --------------- ----------- -------------- ------------ ---------------
 General              24              3862        233            44           13
 WeaponMaster         18              1855        432            45           13
 MonsterMaster        16              2072        129            45           15
 AdrenalineMaster     16              2274        129            44           9
 Engineer             16              2359        341            44           20

That looks fairly balanced. The General is doing slightly better here, but with 2 infinite weapons and self healing it is expected.

Level 90-110
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin MaxXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed AverageLevel DistinctPlayers
 -------------------- --------------- ----------- -------------- ------------ ---------------
 General              71              5635        37             104          1
 MonsterMaster        43              3041        118            101          6
 Engineer             40              4817        193            99           7
 AdrenalineMaster     37              4386        112            97           4
 WeaponMaster         23              3611        210            102          10

Elite's General player has made it up to the level 90-110 range, so since he is the only General playing at this level, it wins. Aside from that, the AM is here is still doing better than the level 156 AM following, due to good scoring from PaRaSthEsia.
Bottom is the WM - but again the stats are distorted by one player dragging it down, and without that player it scores at around 41.

Level 150-170
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin MaxXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed AverageLevel DistinctPlayers
 -------------------- --------------- ----------- -------------- ------------ ---------------
 Engineer             52              4778        414            160          7
 WeaponMaster         42              2917        88             165          2
 AdrenalineMaster     42              3265        52             157          2

All reasonably balanced here, but no medics. The Engineer is slowly falling from its high of 55 as more players dilute F8_ALs good scores.

Character basically maxed
Code:

 SubClass             AverageXPPerMin MaxXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed AverageLevel DistinctPlayers
 -------------------- --------------- ----------- -------------- ------------ ---------------
 Vehicle Specialist   97              7694        4              382          1
 Berserker            85              9405        320            624          6
 Extreme Engineer     85              3530        4              377          1
 Extreme AM           83              10881       105            298          4
 Extreme WM           83              7208        92             446          3
 Skilled Weapons      83              4175        5              506          2
 AM/WM hybrid         80              5409        30             768          2
 MonsterMaster        72              5355        149            597          4
 Extreme Monsters     71              7932        102            339          4
 Tank                 68              4163        2              388          1
 Extreme Medic        67              4874        92             416          4
 Sentinel Specialist  65              8246        84             292          4
 Turret Specialist    62              5916        19             381          1
 AdrenalineMaster     56              5146        312            222          9
 WeaponMaster         48              5258        91             366          10
 WM/Eng hybrid        47              2829        2              384          1
 Engineer             45              4610        53             391          2
 WM/MM hybrid         40              1500        3              330          1

Note that different subclasses max at different levels e.g. Extreme AM essentially maxes at level 128 while the turret specialist maxes at 301.

Increasingly, what I am seeing is that it is the player that makes the difference. If I look at the figures for any subclass, the lowest player tends to get a third to a half the scoring rate of the highest player. So the average figures above reflect more who was playing than the balance between the classes.

So, one extra table showing the max achieved regardless of level
Code:

 SubClass             MaxXPPerMap NumTimesPlayed
 -------------------- ----------- --------------
 Extreme AM           10881       105
 Berserker            9405        320
 Sentinel Specialist  8246        265
 Extreme Monsters     7932        107
 Vehicle Specialist   7694        4
 Extreme WM           7208        92
 General              6526        1182
 Turret Specialist    5916        26
 Engineer             5539        4118
 AM/WM hybrid         5409        30
 MonsterMaster        5355        2130
 WeaponMaster         5258        3042
 AdrenalineMaster     5146        2041
 Extreme Medic        4874        99
 Skilled Weapons      4175        5
 Tank                 4163        2
 Extreme Engineer     3530        5
 WM/Eng hybrid        2829        2
 WM/MM hybrid         1500        3
 None                 742         436

So three hybrids have now made it on! Although with only a few games longer than 20 mins, the results are not conclusive.

i imagine the hybrid classes will be played by the mid level 80-120 when released. just think, if you have the choice of all the subclasses, you are almost deffinalty going to play the extreme ones, but if you get to level 80, you will switch to a hybrid, as it is something new. This is why i think for testing, the hybrids should be availible to lvl 80+, then they will actaully be tested.

I also think the extreme vehicle master needs something to make it more appealing. No one is playing this at all. i think flying vehicles would, make it more playable on large maps.

F8_AL wrote:

i imagine the hybrid classes will be played by the mid level 80-120 when released. just think, if you have the choice of all the subclasses, you are almost deffinalty going to play the extreme ones, but if you get to level 80, you will switch to a hybrid, as it is something new. This is why i think for testing, the hybrids should be availible to lvl 80+, then they will actaully be tested.

Yeah the hybrids should be released for players 80+ and Extreme ones for players lv 120+ except berserk that one should be for lvl 200

The hybrid classes are currently underpowered to be playing at level 200 + (most of us are well over 300+ I believe)

I think the Extreme classes being played most (Berserker/XWM) are being played maxed out , and are balanced very well.
I've been trying to get my AM over lvl 200 for a Month and a half now

to try XAM so haven't played around with hybrid subclasses.
Maybe its time to break away and test the hybrids ,I'll try to help

Oh and by the way Szlat you should try to take a look at sentinel, turret specialists, always when im playing my engineer and there are players playing turret or sentinel specialists classes they cant beat me in the score, im always on top of them, maybe they are kinda underpowered againts normal Engineers.

I think that most of the extreme classes are fine now, except the tank, wep specislist and extreme vehciles which i have never seen used. Are the hybrids underpowered though? Or have people just not used then enough to realise their potential? Personally i think many of the hybrids sound very powerfull, although i am yet to play them.

I think you will find though that the extreme classes are always going to be played by people who have them, because they are more fun, even if the hybrids are just as powerfull. In my eyes, the hyrbids are going to be more for your averge level players who want a bit of variation when they hit 80.

the sentinel specialist is DEFINATLY not overpowered, its just i think sometimes people put the sents down and leave them to do the work (ie astra). the turret specialist is generally only being used when there are enough engineers on to link up, and provide a base with defence sents. without that, it is underpowered. However an ion turret with 2+ linkers is very powerfull.

well as mentioned the hybrids need to be tested with the ppl who will be using them more often than the maxed out ppl

I think the subclasses are going to be set:

Hybrids available from level 80
Extreme subclasses from level 130
Others (Tank, Specialists) from level 150.

oooh NICE!!... but you sure its a good idea releasing them all at the same time?

Elite wrote:

oooh NICE!!... but you sure its a good idea releasing them all at the same time?

I am not sure.

However the first step is the big one - releasing the hybrids at level 80. That is going to affect the most people.

Bringing the extremes down to 130 and the others to 150 from 200 will affect fewer people - it could wait, but that would mean waiting for 2 builds, which could be a long time.

Let's give it a go. Of course, it all depends on when Druid gets time for a build.

Yeah true ... you're right builds are rare

ether his hammer is broken or he's get'n to much doctoring from shan!