SubClasses

Before we go any further, this is a big change that Druid would need to be convinced about before it gets off the ground. So, it may not happen.

I want to raise again the concept of sub-classes See this thread.
The idea is that you have your basic classes as now - AM, WM, Eng, M/MM. Each class will then have a number of subclasses. These give a twist as to the abilities available. So for example for a WM you might have

the current setup for WMs (the default subclass)

an extreme fighter class. No adrenaline abilities, but much more powerful weapons. Infinite ammo. No pickups. No shields. Loads of vampire.

A hybrid WM/AM, with more powerful adrenaline skills but less Weapons skills than the current WM

A hybrid WM/Medic, with some healing skills but less Weapons skills than the current WM

A hybrid WM/Eng, with limited summoning skills but less Weapons skills than the current WM

Berserker. A fun one. Permanent rage effect. Or perhaps a combined double damage + Harm effect, so do more damage but take more

Bascially, the class as now, a hybrid with each of the other class, an extreme form, and any fun alternatives we can think of.

The hybrid subclasses would be shared between the classes i.e. the AM/WM hybrid would be the same subclass as the WM/AM hybrid.

And at any time, you can choose to change what subclass you are playing. Here I am thinking of one change per day, not 3 times per map. You sell your abilities, and re-buy them as a different sub-class. The thought is that it would provide variety for those long-playing individuals who have played the same class for 100s of levels.

On my test system, I have coded up adding a Sell button which does this. So, the concept is possible. You will not be able to sell the class, nor your stat points.
I have yet to sort out how to allow the sub-class to affect which abilities can be bought - but that is just a technicality, it will be possible.

And it may also be possible to add a "Jack of all Trades" class. By default, it has a bit of every class. It's sub-classes will be the six hybrid classes.

So,

Are people interested?

What sub-classes do we want?

And what abilities should be available to what subclasses?

I like this! I've always wanted some new subclasses. I was thinking of:

Trooper
Berserker
Hunter
Assassin

But I have no idea where these would go under.

the more I think about it the more I like the idea
I would suggest a lvl restriction before one could "buy" a sub class but that may not work.
I assume the sub-class would make one skill set available and limit another skill set (maxing it at a lower lvl)
the first issue I'm concerned about is how exploitable (out of control) this could make some character types; a AM/MM would have healing skills and a very high attack possibility (rod)
sounds like fun but balancing could be very difficult

my name suggestion : MM/Eng : Juggernaut or the Healing depot

It kinda works well in UT3. Basically, your character can be 2 different classes, WM/AM--AM/MM--WM/MM. You can sell your points and re-apply them better as you go up in levels.

Well Im all for it... and about implementing the class "jack of all trades" may i suggest this : http://disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/15/3917.page#36889

My idea on this post unless you disagree with it because in a way the class that I was suggesting was a jack of all trades just with a different title "The Undead Class"

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

I would suggest a lvl restriction before one could "buy" a sub class but that may not work.

Could do. I wasn't thinking of it, but I am not against it.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

I assume the sub-class would make one skill set available and limit another skill set (maxing it at a lower lvl)

Agreed, so the AM/WM hybrid for example may be limited to LA3,LW2,Vamp2,Leech1,no surge etc.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

the first issue I'm concerned about is how exploitable (out of control) this could make some character types; a AM/MM would have healing skills and a very high attack possibility (rod)
sounds like fun but balancing could be very difficult

I agree.

Elite wrote:

Well Im all for it... and about implementing the class "jack of all trades" may i suggest this : http://disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/15/3917.page#36889
My idea on this post unless you disagree with it because in a way the class that I was suggesting was a jack of all trades just with a different title "The Undead Class"

I am suggesting an extreme form of each class - so there would be an extreme fighter, an extreme builder an an extreme magician. However, I think the Medic/Monster master we have to spilt into 2, so we get an extreme medic and an extreme monster master.

The main part of what you were suggesting seemed to be summoning additional monsters - skeletons or a "Lucifer" boss. So this to me could form part of the extreme monster master class.
I wasn't sure if Auras were intended to be an ability of the summoned monster or of the player.

this sounds real good. i think it would be an idea to make it available to players of a certain level, where you are granted an aditional class. if this was the case i dont think it should limit your starting classes abilities but rather the abilities from your "secondary class" are weakend.

Also you could have these subclasses that chhange the limit on stat points. e.g a beserker class could have an extra 100 wep speed points.

I suppose the other thing to remember is that subclasses are an addon. They should not be regarded as fixed in make-up, as certainly initially they will need a lot of tweaking.

Subclasses could be added on a temporary basis for novelty value, then removed, without anyone losing anything they have invested.
So, for example, on April 1st there could be a subclass added available to all classes that helps them deal with Nalis holding redeemers or vorpal minis. Then the subclass removed a day later.

But we could take the changes further. Have some "beginner" subclasses, that give the player a lot more power than would be balanced, but only give them half the xp they would normally get. limit this subclass to below level 50. So the low levels can survive longer, and have more fun.

Or have some "expert" subclasses (I nearly used the word "elite"

) that are a lot more difficult to play but grant additional rewards - possibly double xp, or if the "expert" player ends at the top of the scoreboard, then grant a windfall of 1000xp, or grant some other bonus.

F8_AL wrote:

this sounds real good. i think it would be an idea to make it available to players of a certain level, where you are granted an aditional class. if this was the case i dont think it should limit your starting classes abilities but rather the abilities from your "secondary class" are weakend.

The subclasses cannot just add extra power to existing classes. There must be give and take to keep them balanced. So if a subclass is stronger in certain areas, it must be weaker in others.

F8_AL wrote:

Also you could have these subclasses that change the limit on stat points. e.g a beserker class could have an extra 100 wep speed points.

At the moment I am not looking to change the stats limits. It is possible, but I think at this stage I would prefer just to have abilities being sold.

Well the auras were just for the player not the monsters... that would be too much don't you think

Elite wrote:

Well the auras were just for the player not the monsters... that would be too much don't you think

To add the summoning of the extra monsters and adding the auras will be quite a bit of work. At the moment, I want to chase up the code for the subclassing, so I don't want to embark upon anything else for now. My initial thought on the Jack was along the lines suggested by {RAD}Raze2K5 in this thread i.e. a bit of everything, rather than brand new abilities. So I think the extra work for the Jack class will have to wait until Druid is around.

So the key problem is getting the hybrid classes correct.

Now everyone will have different ideas about what should be included. Some will want all the abilities from both, some will just want the best abilities from both. Both would result in a subclass that was too powerful. Any subclass mustn't be significantly more powerful than either of the two classes it is formed from

As a general thought, if a class has something unique about it, the hybrid will not have it to the same strength. If both classes have something, the hybrid should.

So let's start thinking about the AM/WM hybrid. Its probably the hybrid people will understand best. I suppose first we need a good name for it. Thoughts?

From the WM perspective, the hybrid will be less of an up front fighter, with better adrenaline use. So looking at the LW skills:

Loaded Weapons max level 2 (no superweapons)

vampire. It is WM specific, so the hybrid can't have at full strength. Especially since the AM is so set against getting health back. But it would be tough on the hybrid not to have some vampire, so probably max level 3

Enhanced Damage. Not for the hybrid
But it would be a shame to lose LW4 and LW5, as those abilities fit in with the nature of the hybrid. So I would suggest a new ability for the hybrid "Magic Weapons". 2 levels esentially doing what LW4 and 5 do.

Then from the AM perspective, the hybrid will be less good with artifacts, but better with weapons. So focus on the weapon based artifacts, and leave out the pure adrenaline ones.

Loaded Artifacts. Give those artifacts to help with fighting with weapons - MWM, DMM, triple, Max, globe. But not rod, bolt, beam, blasts, spheres, remotes

No energy shield.

Full adrenal surge - as it is reward for killing things - up the WMs street.

No Energy Vampire. To have this and surge would be a bit excessive

Other abilities:

Ammo regen yes, since they both have it.

Likewise Awareness yes since both have it

Denial. Currently WM maxes at 2, AM maxes at 3. I would be tempted to let this have denial 3 - but modify LW so it doesn't give a new one of the weapon if the player already has one

Regen. I think all 5 levels. I think the hybrid should have more regen than vampire

Adrenal drip. I think no to this. Go for the weapon based adrenaline return, rather than the time based.

And of course all the general abilities - iron legs, countershove, smart healing etc

So in summary:

Loaded Weapons without the super weapons

Loaded artifacts - the weapon based artifacts

Health - Vampire 3 and regen 5. About half as good as a LW

Adrenaline. Surge 2. No leech or drip.

Ammo regen

Thought? Too strong or not strong enough?

Sounds fairly balanced to me.

Just a few dumb questions.

When you talk about hybrids, i.e. WM/AM, are you required to have a character in both classes or just one?

What if your only character is a medic and you want to try the WM/AM hybrid. Do you need to create another character in either the WM or AM class?

A lot of 300+ level players will have will have extra xp points that they cannot use with their main characters and if the hybrid is based off their main character, my WM for example, will the points be available for usage towards the hybrid? I would dearly love, as would other high level players, to use those points rather than look at them like a dragon caressing her mound of gold coins.