SubClasses

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

When you talk about hybrids, i.e. WM/AM, are you required to have a character in both classes or just one?

Just one.

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

What if your only character is a medic and you want to try the WM/AM hybrid. Do you need to create another character in either the WM or AM class?

Yes. Unless Druid decides to make the WM/AM hybrid available to the MM class - which I very much doubt.

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

A lot of 300+ level players will have will have extra xp points that they cannot use with their main characters and if the hybrid is based off their main character, my WM for example, will the points be available for usage towards the hybrid? I would dearly love, as would other high level players, to use those points rather than look at them like a dragon caressing her mound of gold coins.

Sorry, it won't actually help.
Each character has a class, and that class cannot change. Your WM has a shedload of points - some of which you have spent and some you haven't.
My thought is to make a number of subclasses available to each class. Then you can sell all the abilities you have bought, buy one of the subclasses available to that class, and buy any abilities available to your subclass. So in your case, you may have 2000 point doing nothing. You sell your abilities and have say 4000 points. You buy the subclass, and have 3999 points. Then you buy the abilities available to the subclass - bringing you back to around 2000 points left again.
You cannot buy the subclass abilities and add them to your basic class abilities. You are either the basic class, or you are a subclass. Not both.

EDIT: Aah, I am a bit slow today, I think I see where you are coming from. For each class, have a set of subclasses, but keep the list of purchased abilities separate. And do not have a sell button. . So when you are playing the AM/WM subclass you purchase Vampire 1 for example, and that skill is then available each time you play as that subclass, but if you were playing say WM/Medic you wouldn't have purchased the ability. Interesting idea, and that would let you spend the points you have. And it would quite be as bad as starting a new character as you would still have your stats. It could be done.

Or I could have done it the same way classes are implemented - so with your new player you buy a class, then you buy a subclass and you are stuck with it, and can't sell anything. But I thought that was a bit harsh on the high level characters, making them start again to try the new things.

So the idea I think I prefer is to allow selling of abilities and subclass, but not classes or stat points. If your character is a WM, and let's say the WM subclasses are the non-subclass (as now), the WM/AM hybrid, the WM/Medic hybrid, the WM/Eng hybrid, the Extreme WM, and the Berserker, then this week you could play as a AM/WM, next week a berserker, the week after as a WM/Eng, the week after as the default non-subclass etc. I just thought it might be more interesting.

I just remembered!

I've seen a sell button before on one server. But I can't remember which one. It worked perfectly, no bugs or anything. I think there was also a Refund button for stats like Damage Bonus.

Szlat, sorry to say but that sounds like the kind of uberclass that people banter about all the time. All of the good abilities from both the WM and AM class.

Loaded Weapons - You get the basics every time. The higher levels of LW are small bonuses.
Denial 3 - You keep everything you own. (Note here: Having this with Loaded Weapons may require more substantial changes)
Vampirism & Enhanced Damage.
All of the important multiplicative-effect AM artifacts.
Adrenal Surge - The only AM power that the AM actually benefits from when running artifacts anyway.

I think this idea can work, but really, I think you need to decide on exactly what you want to accomplish with something like this.

Since what you're proposing is effectively blending classes, then the typical complaint about new classes - That new classes step on the toes of already existing game-roles - Doesn't strike me as a problem. (Although, this never struck me as a problem - All 3 classes have the same objective, namely to kill monsters and survive. There's no reason to limit that to 3 if more ways can be developed.)

If the goal is to provide more gameplay options, then I think it may be a better idea to try and develop new classes with new abilities rather than taking the existing classes and cannibalizing them to arrange the same abilities in different ways.

If the goal is to provide differentiation between characters of the same class, then I think it might be better to limit the adjustments to purely additive bonuses. (IE, WM subclass A gets ability 1, but can't buy ability 2 or 3, WM subclass B gets ability 2, but can't buy ability 1 or 3). That is a lot simpler, whereas all the limitations on what you can and can't buy in the way you're proposing will probably require players go outside of the game and read a webpage to understand the limitations.

Wail wrote:

Szlat, sorry to say but that sounds like the kind of uberclass that people banter about all the time. All of the good abilities from both the WM and AM class.
Loaded Weapons - You get the basics every time. The higher levels of LW are small bonuses.
Denial 3 - You keep everything you own. (Note here: Having this with Loaded Weapons may require more substantial changes)
Vampirism & Enhanced Damage.
All of the important multiplicative-effect AM artifacts.
Adrenal Surge - The only AM power that the AM actually benefits from when running artifacts anyway.

Thanks for the feedback. On reflection I think you are correct. Vampire was limited to just level 3, and Enhanced damage wasn't in the list, but it may still be too powerful. I will need to check back and find exactly which combination was the reason for Druid splitting WM and AM in the first place. But it would be simpler if Denial wasn't in the list, and perhaps we shouldn't include the Magic Weapons skill.

Wail wrote:

I think this idea can work, but really, I think you need to decide on exactly what you want to accomplish with something like this.

If the goal is to provide more gameplay options, then I think it may be a better idea to try and develop new classes with new abilities rather than taking the existing classes and cannibalizing them to arrange the same abilities in different ways.

In the long term I agree with you. I was looking for some subclasses that could be implemented quickly that would give some variety. More novel classes could be added later. The hybrids were there really to increase options, the extreme subclasses would involve more radical changes. But I think more subclasses like a Berserker one that carries one thing to an extreme could add a lot of fun. Really I am throwing out the idea of subclasses, and hoping some good ideas come back.

Wail wrote:

If the goal is to provide differentiation between characters of the same class, then I think it might be better to limit the adjustments to purely additive bonuses. (IE, WM subclass A gets ability 1, but can't buy ability 2 or 3, WM subclass B gets ability 2, but can't buy ability 1 or 3). That is a lot simpler, whereas all the limitations on what you can and can't buy in the way you're proposing will probably require players go outside of the game and read a webpage to understand the limitations.

I agree it would be a lot easier to understand if it was whole abilities that were switched in or out.
But if we take the example of vampire, most WM subclasses will want it to some extent. And to create a similar ability with a different name could add to the confusion. One option I was thinking of, for classes like vampire that will be required in different strengths, would be to have say:

"Vampire" - as now

"Lite Vampire" - a reduced version of it, that maxes at say level 3. Used by all the WM hybrid classes

"Extreme Vampire" - an extreme version required for the extreme WM class if it doesn't have regen.
Then the "Vampire" says what it does, and the "lite"/"extreme" gives the strength. However, I would need to change the ability list to only show one of the three - which is probably worth doing anyway. Just show the abilities that could be bought under the correct conditions, and those already bought. So for example, once you have bought a class and a subclass, don't show the other classes or subclasses in the list as there is no way you can buy them.

Regarding the Denial thing -

I'm not sure if you're interested, but one of the things I am thinking about looking into is flagging certain weapons (on a weapon-by-weapon basis) as being preserved by an ability like Denial.

To me, one of the annoying things with the current implementation of a "Weapon Preservation" skill is that there's not really a good way to handle which weapons are preserved and which ones aren't. So Denial becomes one weapon or all weapons, instead of having a more gradual curve of one weapon, two weapons, three weapons, etc.

In theory it should be possible to make it so players can flag their weapons as items to preserve [using an artifact of some kind most likely], so your example class could say, preserve two weapons, but not all of them. I think that gives more breathing room in the design space.

Also, what you mention with the ability list only showing purchaseable abilities - I would love to see that. The way the ability list is pretty unmanageable already, it'd be nice to pare things down.

Perhaps we shouldn't do the hybrid subclasses?
On the positive side they are quick to implement and easy to understand.
On the negative side, as Wail said, all they are doing is re-arranging existing abilities in different ways.

One better way might be to think of a specific role e.g. wizard, ranger, cleric, paladin, knight, monk etc. Then think which abilities should go into that subclass - including new abilities as appropriate. Then allow the subclass to the most appropriate class.

I have been following this for a bit. And I have to say I like the idea to have a few abilities open up to me. Like someone said before, it would be nice that a WM has the capability to max his own weapons. (and the +1 ability is a nice one too). Cuz after level 350, your biggest ambition is to reach a higher score for the books.

What could happen is for us WMs to add another level into the Loaded Weapons ability to have maxed weapons at spawn. I know, just thinking of me. But the ability kinda belongs with us I would think...maybe.

But, in the end, I do like the sub-class idea. If anything, to use the sand bagged XP on something.

Yeah I second that opinion and agree with Flak Monkey on another level "loaded weapons 6" which would give us all maxed weapons.

I can see why WMs want it. However, when Druid made LW5 he could easily have added a LW6 at the time, or given WMs a max artifact. He didn't, because he wanted them to depend on AMs for the maxing. So, unless Druid gives the ok, I will not do it for WMs. Reasons - too big a benefit so something would have to be lost which WMs would call nerfing, and it upsets the interdependence of the classes.

However, having said that, I was already thinking of it as a possibility for the extreme WM subclass, since I want them to have really good weapons - but that subclass will have substantial nerfs in other areas.

I was hoping to have SubClass just configured in the rpg.ini file, rather than hard coded. This would have allowed easy changes to be made by system administrators.

Unfortunately, I don't think I can do that. We need to have the subclass saved for each user, and since the original save stats code does not save subclasses, I need to have the subclasses treated as abilities so they get saved. This means they need to be listed as abilities in the [UT2004RPG.MutUT2004RPG] section of the file. Which means they need to be actually coded in the DruidsRPGn.u file.

...unless I can have one ability called subclass, and have each level representing a different subclass. I will give this a try.

I don't think it would be a big loss for AMs at all. There are the other 2 classes that still benefit from that ability to max others, remotely now. Just the WMs could be independent of that is all (at that level anyways) They still have to build up to it.

But regardless of that, I do agree if it was an option back when LW5 was created that 6 could have been also. I'm pulling for it, but I wont make a stink over it. Back then there were only 2 classes is all. We now have 4.
If the sub-class is the way to go then let's give it a try.

This is a long post. Sorry.

Before I go any further, this is coded and implemented, but is definitely speculative until Druid considers it. Certainly he will want to adjust the balance, but may also not want it at all due to the increased network loading on startup)

So, I have a version of the SubClass stuff working on my test machine. The "L" stats menu now looks like this:

Note the Buy buttons next to the Class and SubClass that allows you to buy a class and subclass, and the Sell button which lets you sell all your abilities. The MAX value is dynamically adjusted according to what subclass you are playing, and is described in the ability Info screen.

All the subclasses are configured in the ini file, rather than coded in the mutator. So any site admin can change what subclasses are available, and what ability levels they are limited to.

I have configured the first pass at the subclass configuration, and am busy testing them. See the lists of abilities below with their max levels for where I currently am. These will change!
Unless otherwise stated, every subclass has Ghost, Ultima, Vehicle Eject 1, Wheeled Stunts 1, and all the base Countershove, IronLegs,... skills. But each subclass only has the class skills specified.

Note that these subclasses are intended to be approximately the same strength as the existing classes. As such, they will only spend the same amount of points. Do not ask for changes to make the subclasses too powerful

I have also indicated the levels required to buy the abilities for the subclass - this does NOT include buying the stats.
Compare this with the standard classes AM 226, WM 286, M/MM 332, Eng 311.

The first set of subclasses I added were the hybrids. A bit of one class and a bit of another.
These hybrids tend to get combinations of Loaded Artifacts 2, Weapons 2, Healing 2 + Exp Healing 2, and Engineer 8 + Construct Bonus 6, and other skills as approriate.
They currently only get an awareness skill if both sides have it available. I may look into combining multiple awarenesses, but haven't had the time yet.

AM/WM hybrid: Loaded Artifacts 2, Energy Leech 5, Loaded Weapons 2, Vampire 3, Resupply 4, Awareness 2, Health Regen 3 (Levels: 227 )
(Is quite a reasonable fighter. From the AM side, it gets the weapon based stuff - so energy vampire rather than drip. Surge would be too powerful. I would have prefered no adrenaline attacks, but LA2 includes the rod. I may consider switching the rod from LA2 to LA3, and at the same time making artifacts permanent at LA2 - its annoying when the MWM disappears. From the WM side, LW2 so no super weapons, no enhanced damage but some vampire. Both classes have resupply and awareness, so the joint class does)

AM/MM hybrid: Loaded Artifacts 2, Energy shield 1, Adrenal drip 3, Loaded Healing 2, Experienced healing 2, Resupply 2, Health Regen 3 (Levels: 201 )
(Basically a medic with no monster stuff getting reduced healing xp and no enhanced reduction, but getting LA2 and resupply. No adrenaline bonus from damaging opponents as it doesn't fit in with medics. Rather than LA2 I would have prefered to give team artifacts spheres etc, but I can't without giving it the whole of LA, which would be too much)

AM/Eng hybrid: Loaded Artifacts 2, Energy shield 2, Adrenal drip 3, LoadedEng 8, Construct Bonus 6, Resupply 3 (Levels: 204 )
(Can build a limited base with a lightning or defense sentinel, but has access to better weapons than an engineer)

WM/MM hybrid: Loaded Weapons 2, Loaded Healing 2, Experienced Healing 2, Resupply 2, Health Regen 5, Adrenal Drip 1 (Levels: 206 )

WM/Eng hybrid: Loaded Weapons 2, Vampire 3, Loaded Engineer 8, Shield healing 3, Armor regen 2, Armor Vampire 5, Construct Bonus 6, Resupply 2, Health Regen 3 (Levels: 239 )

MM/Eng hybrid: Loaded healing 2, Experience healing 2, Enhanced reduction 5, Loaded Engineer 8, Shield healing 3, Construct Bonus 6, Health Regen 3 (Levels: 212 )

Then I added some extreme subclasses:

Extreme AM: Loaded Artifacts 5, Adrenal Surge 3, Energy Leech 2, Energy shield 3, Adrenal drip 4, Resupply 1, Awareness 2, Ghost 2, fast weapon switch 1 (Levels: 200 )
(The idea is to use adrenaline attacks rather than weapons for the kills. So, LA5. This halves the damage done by weapons, but doubles damage from adrenaline attacks and/or halves the adrenaline required for the attack. It also reduces the fire-again timers for beam and the blasts. Drip 4 gives 2 adrenaline a second and a third level of surge gives lots of adrenaline. Energy Leech only gives adrenaline for weapon damage, so a max of 2 instead of 5. To further reduce weapon effectiveness, resupply 1 and only 1 fast weapon switch. And only Ghost 2. This is the first of the "extreme classes", intended to add variety - and it does. The playing style is different - most of the time with a trans as the weapon, as normal weapons are seriously nerfed.)

Extreme WM: Loaded Weapons 6, Vampire 15, Enhanced damage 10, Resupply 4, Awareness 2 (levels: 316 )
(The idea is all weapons, and no adrenaline attacks. So LW6 gives all maxed weapons, increased weapon damage but reduced adrenaline damage)

Extreme Medic: Loaded Healing 4, Experienced healing 15, medic Awareness 2, Enhanced Reduction 10, Health regen 5, Adrenal Drip 2 (levels: 264 )
(The idea is just focus on healing. So healing damage is double, damage against opponents is halved, blasts are half cost. You had better keep the others alive! Could score lots of xp in a support role, will die on the front line)

Extreme Monsters: Loaded Healing 2, medic Awareness 2, Loaded Monsters 15, Monster health 10, Monster Points 30, Monster skill 7, Enhanced Reduction 10, Health regen 5 (levels: 358 )
(EDIT: not sure if we want to add any extra monsters to be summoned - Druid's call. Have also added a new ability for Extreme Monsters characters - AbilityMonsterDamage, which increases the damage done by Pets)

Extreme Eng: Loaded Engineer 20, Armor regen 5, Armor Vampire 15, Construct Bonus 10, Eng Awareness 1, Rapid Build 10, vehicle Eject 4, Wheeled Stunts 3 (levels: 369 )
(More of a focus on building, so no shield regen or healing. Not sure if we will add extra vehicles etc requiring > 15 points )

And a fun subclass:

Berserker: Adrenal Surge 2, Loaded Weapons 5, Vampire 10, Berserker Damage 20, resupply 4, Awareness 2 (levels: 283 )
(Available only to the WM class. Kill fast and die fast. The Berserker damage gives extra damage, but also takes extra damage - the amount depends on how close to the action you are. So up close the Berserker does a max of 4x damage, but takes 2x damage. Further away, he does 2x damage but takes 4x damage.)

And for good measure, I added an extra class - the "Jack of all trades" - but I called it "General"
class General: Loaded Artifacts 1, Energy Vampire 3, Loaded Weapons 1, Vampire 2, Enhanced damage 2, Loaded healing 2, Enhanced reduction 2, Loaded Engineer 5, Construct Bonus 3, Resupply 2, Awareness 2, health regen 3, Drip 3 (levels: 218 )
(A bit of most things, but good at nothing)
The General class can run under it's own configuration, or can run any of the 6 hybrids.

There is still lots of balancing to do. For example, at the moment the Extreme AM has a way too powerful beam - equivalent to an instagib shock - so that needs tightening down. While this class has adrenaline, it is currently unbeatable. And the multi-kills keep the adrenaline flowing on small maps. On larger maps with monsters more spaced out, it is not so strong.

And I have updated the scoreboard to show the new General class, and state the current subclass.

Nice work!

WOW!

Any chance of adding new monsters to summon or new constructions to build?

you could use some off tony-the-slayers new monsterpack!