Considerations for Better Balance and GamePlay

your thought that making a sent degen health is not vaild... most sent specialists place 2 offensive sents and sit in the base linking them constantly. doesnt solve the issue

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

actually i can prove that rod is no longer needed in my game play. i bet 20 bucks that i can match the score in flat 2.8 points and get more exp by using only beam. .....

Nobody is getting at you personally, and we know AMs can score high without using the rod. But you have to work for it - and that is the point. It is too easy just to switch on the triple/rod combo, especially in wave 10, and get loads of easy kills.

At the moment the rod does about the same damage/adrenaline as the beam. So which do AMs normally use - the beam that you have to aim, or the rod+triple that does about twice the damage and you don't have to aim, and just pulls in the sprees?

actually here is my point

i made it today..

as you can see i made most of my kills with beam, the score yes is lower, but watch the map, there is no flak or mini my weapons of choice, as i said before its not about if they are powerful or not, its about the map if i got a close map i dont use sniper, or light, and same goes if i got a huge map i tend to use insta hit wepons, in that example i had to fight against cyber (ryu) and he had a vop shock. . given other map i can easily outscore it. (btw that score must go as highest beam kills)

@szlat, i know its not against me. it just that you pointed a map that is made for rod,(mako) people aint bots, and they try to adjust to the settings, as before the wont use flak in a wide open maps, especially when high lvls or high hit weapons are on the set. if i use rod or beam or anyother weapon is because its (what i judge) the right time the right place.

btw looks at the exp, means i didnt kill just pupaes or stuff like that, i did several damage to big monsters

I'm not sure about the DD/trip thing. I'll grab the DD if I see it and go kick butt if I have the adren and a rod.... this is for all my chars not just the AM. I don't use the trip and rod combo cuz it's not key bound and I eats my adren FAST!. I play pretty much as a hold back, but I do go out and chase em down! there's times that I ether don't know that I have a rod or I forget about it and don't use it in a crowd to save my hide.
Now its a bit of human nature to do and use things that make things easier for them. some ppl like certain types of char's and do really well at that type.........then there's Elite that does outstanding in any type of char! the bum!

The main thing here in all of this is that your trying to make new types of chars for the old timers on the server and give them something new and not be over the top with noobs to the server and discourge them from playing here because they can't score/level up and build a char into something fast enough to keep up with the regular ppl that are in the 200-300 plus and higher range and have xp points to stack on nothing to buy!
I remember when I 1st joined and it was along those lines for me but there was nice friendly ppl here and I liked that so I stayed.
But there's times when you have to sit back and look at things and not try and change alot of things just some small nudges here and there.

I suggest to you my coding friend

that you wait for dru to do the build and sit back and have some fun and see what happens , and then if things seem to get out of hand make a change at that point. but remember ppl will use somethings in moderation and others will abuse things and when that happens and you make a change because of that it affects all and may upset some who do use certain combos on occasion just because of a few abusers, such as when the triple was nerfed from the massive use it got from some ppl. I have more often than not tossed the trip and globe to ppl than use them for myself, I maybe rambling here but I really think you should wait and see what happens after this next build. Be sides there is a standing policy of no exploiting bugs and flaws

this might hurt me, but keep in mind that that score is in a normal AM picture when i get extreme AM.

A nerf to rod/sentinels is very relevant.

It's a slap in the face when you're working your butt off for kills (especially as a low level player) and someone waltzes in running a rod and everything you've been killing gets wasted. Or someone places a sent in the middle of the grounds you've been hunting on the whole map; suddenly you're getting half the xp you were previously.

Not only do these means take considerably less effort, they also cut into other players' scores/xp.

Thank you hatter for posting more pictures and further proving my point that triple and rod is not needed to score high, it is just overkill. As szlat said you have to work for your points, and in those pictures it shows you have.

synchronyze wrote:

Or someone places a sent in the middle of the grounds you've been hunting on the whole map; suddenly you're getting half the xp you were previously.

actually thats a lie.. you only get 50% of the xp and points if both players are on the same skill level, you are better than the eng that put the sent u get more exp, for example whenever i face an eng that put a light sent in a busy area i stay there, why? it lowers all monster hp but in a rate so slow that it give me time to kill everymonster in the room, true the eng get some exp and some points (eventualy) but the reward is that you dont get hit, since most of the monsters hit the light sent or the sent , not you. you are not the target but the killer

Elite wrote:

Thank you hatter for posting more pictures and further proving my point that triple and rod is not needed to score high, it is just overkill. As szlat said you have to work for your points, and in those pictures it shows you have.

actually using rod does need skill, why? well there are some wave that are just a waste of adren..

lets picture this, you are a soldier and you are facing an enemy in a hut, he is hiden you know it, what you do? trow a granade inside or just enter and try to use your sniper rifle to get ride of them?, a good and skilled solder will pick the an explosive devide such as grandade , its easier you get the kills and no risk involved, lets pick another example you are a solder, enemy is 200 yards away, what weapon u will pick? granade or sniper?

as shown in example above, there is some skill there, to pick the weapons for the right time, taking off the rod is like take off the grenades of a soldier, and forcing him to deal with enemies with a un-proper weapon.. its just not right.

lets look at this statement, if AM's are mages, therefore mages use magic stuff like rod.

synchronyze wrote:

A nerf to rod/sentinels is very relevant.

It's a slap in the face when you're working your butt off for kills (especially as a low level player) and someone waltzes in running a rod and everything you've been killing gets wasted. Or someone places a sent in the middle of the grounds you've been hunting on the whole map; suddenly you're getting half the xp you were previously.

Not only do these means take considerably less effort, they also cut into other players' scores/xp.

Like Hatter said, I sometimes prefer areas where sents are located. I dont think it really cuts too much in your XP but its a boost to your survivability since it will lower the monsters HP by some, kill off a few weak ones that your not firing at, and draw fire. Nothing better then flaking a monster in the back when hes targeting the sent. Plus I really dont pay attention to actual scores anymore. Since the XP value was added, I go by that more since it shows more of a contribution to the group as a whole and doesn't award those that go for last hit kills. If a medic has 250 points you'd think hes not doing well to contribute but if hes got 1250 xp so far then hes been healing the group and contributing to the group effort of getting past all the waves.

Its too bad we cant really see how much each sent is drawing in terms of XP. Kill counts could be slightly inflated due to the sent finishing off a low mob that someone was working on. The person that did the most damage got most of the XP but the eng got the score points and a very small amount of xp.

And I also have to agree with it does take some skill to use the rod effectively. Knowing when to turn it on and off (keybinds really help here) means a large difference between getting a good score from the rod and a bad one from using the rod. Turn the rod on on lower hp monsters where it supplements your damage to the monsters around you (plus a better idea when something is around you). If a high HP monster appears nearby turn the rod off and it wont be a huge drain on your adrenaline. Wave 10 is basically where the rod shines the most since nothing in that wave has a lot of hps and puts a strain on adrenaline. But there is some skill involved.

Granted the occasional bonzai move where you got a bunch of warlords outside the base and you turn triple and rod on to clear the entire room out at the cost of most of your adrenaline pool is a bit OP but its those moves that sometimes means the difference between hiding in the base till the monster spawn times run out and they die or the entire group dies and the map ends. Its also good for those "Oh crud" moments where theres a lot of monsters surrounding you and you either should turn on globe and run (or if your alone) trip/rod and use all your adrenaline up to clean the room. Of course if your getting into situations like that, you have other problems then. But I still agree that triple really shouldn't be used with any of the artifacts but double is fine. A good deal of my rod kills coming from running it with no damage boost and providing a pseudo damage aura around me.

You see sentinels add more playstyle and strategies , I use light sent or normal sent to attract monsters and start killing them in their backs.

This is one of my strategies: Kill monsters around my light sent or normal sent, heal sentinel, start killing monsters around it again, heal sent again, Thats how I can achieve a nice score.

With the sentinel specialist is almost the same but its balanced couse the character`s handgun fire damage is reduced but they get an extra sent, Is like playing the engineer with a light sent, def sent and a hellbender that combo really does an insane damage and get good XP.

I dont see why to reduce sentinel power.

No one is saying we need to get rid of rod entirely.... just a nerf. Rod will still be there; it will still be useful.

In hatter's two screenshots we see that running rod scores just as well as actually aiming beam. That is the problem.

Sure you have to pay attention and turn rod off when you see red dots on the radar. But the other AM artifacts don't auto-fire/auto-aim. There is a huge difference in effort there without the same difference in xp.

As far as the Rod is concerned like I've said before reduce its range and it will not be nearly as effective.
I use Triple/Rod combo on occasion and it is overpowered by the killing sprees which allow it to continue for any length of time.
Reducing its range will reduce the sprees as an AM will have move around a lot more ,and quicker than before increasing the chances of getting hit.
Hanging around a lightning sent is a favorite tactic of mine as all the monster in the area concentrate on it

and not me !
We should remember that the AM is a kill fast die fast class
Bolt is nowhere as effective as is used to be because of the timer and reduced damage (never use it myself)
Monsters for a Medic are reasonable as far as I'm concerned ,between me and Cribbage as an example they keep us in adren and allow us to heal other characters as well as get some kills.
Monsters blocking doors are no worse than the "bases" being created
Sentinels we're the beginning of the end for the no camping at DC they not only create an excuse to camp but encourage it
Sent Specialists are widely untested as far as I've seen (other than Rapier) so I'll keep my opinion out

and don't get me started on the Helbenders SPAMcannon
Weapons Vorpal POP = 1 xp I use Vorps a lot (lots of wasted adren

) and don't think they are over powered ,the shock takes more skill than any other weapon to use effectively
I do believe weapons should be made more powerful to encourage players to go out and squish them bugs!!
is it possible to make them damage part of weapons to go higher while keeping the magical properties the same ?

what about new monsters ? don't they get be balanced to ?
Agent Smith wave ala the matrix, Cylon/Stormtrooper invasion, the loudest invasion of all BenderRama

as an after thought remember to take in consideration (as you always do) everyone of us has something invested in defending/promoting certain classes/abilities (favorite characters)
thanks for all your hard work Szlat you rule

I saw a mutatior for invasion with halo Flood. could add a flood wave. seeing stormtroopers would make me laugh hysterically. maybe throw an odd atst in there too

If we do change the vorpal to do +10% to +50% instead of +60% to +100%, I will then allow it to be used with the triple, and will also give the "missing xp" - the rest of the xp that normally doesn't get given when it pops.

If we nerf the sentinels, it will only be by a percentage, so the lightning sents will still exist and be used.

And yes, I think we do need a bit of a shake-up with the monsters, and add some new ones. But that is probably a new thread - I seem to remember Shantara started one a while back.