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Considerations for Better Balance and GamePlay  XML
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Ryuxen

Rampage

Joined: 10/08/2009 09:10:26
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Well my thoughts about this is You have created new sublasses with new skills and abilities and you are trying to balancing them with nerfing, even nerfing the original classes that they were originally there before the subclasses existed, If u make stronger abilities u will need stronger monsters, the monsters we have today they are no match for the new classes, instead of nerfing the classes add stronger monsters with this It will balance the game by a lot, What I propose is to release the subclasses for all players starting lv 80+ and then when u get the data you could start boosting the monsters, If we have a boost why they dont?

I only see that the only way to fix this is to add new monster types with new abilities, for example
The poisoned pupae drains adrenaline a real nemesis for AM
Necro Krall a hit with his staff It will drain shield
Nali mercenary hired to search and destroy specially sents, vehicles and turrets
Nali sorcerer hired to seek and destroy his primary target summoned pets
Cleric Krall a monster who specializes in healing monsters.
Champion Brutes they are slow but hit insanely hard
Mercenary Tanks they have lots of hp and with their shield are the perfect tank to block attacks.
Engineer nalis they can spawn offense and defense sentinels to attack you

Maybe this will add more fun and kill the boredom




Szlat

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Thè-Hättêr wrote:
szlats.. the rod was nerfed because it was "zero" skill.. beam is waaay harder to use. must have perfect aim. that's skill....
and you are lowering the damage...

thats not rewarding having a the aim skills.. that is unfair, i wont post again a single sccreen shot. because when i proved that rod was not the source of my kills..the beam got nerfed. im so disapointment.. 
This was a last minute modification on my part, and I might well reverse it before the next build. It is not a big change.

The reason for doing it was nothing to do with your screen shot - it was a result of my testing. I was playing an Extreme AM and got a huge score before wave 10. I am not a good player - the beam kills were coming too easily. Ok, I didn't have the competition for the double damage, but taking out a queen in 2 shots (half a second) was too much.

Rather than increase the drain, or lower the effectiveness for the EXtreme AM I chose this path, so it will take one more shot for the queen - assuming there is nobody else shooting it.

But 360 piercing damage per shot is still way up there.
Jefe

Godlike
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Joined: 11/05/2008 22:52:53
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Ryuxen wrote:
If u make stronger abilities u will need stronger monsters, the monsters we have today they are no match for the new classes, instead of nerfing the classes add stronger monsters with this It will balance the game by a lot.........
 



A lot of servers have done just that, especially ones without stat caps. Think of it as an arms race, keeping up with the Joneses, or whatever... the net effect is the same. An out of control spiral. Side effects include low-to mid level players not being able to participate for much of the game, a need for maps with 'safe' rooms and server lag from XTREEM weapon speed and XTREEM monsters that can take minutes to kill.

A few minor nerfs aren't so bad.



The new DC server:
Wail

Rampage

Joined: 09/20/2007 21:14:41
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Jefe wrote:

Ryuxen wrote:
If u make stronger abilities u will need stronger monsters, the monsters we have today they are no match for the new classes, instead of nerfing the classes add stronger monsters with this It will balance the game by a lot.........
 



A lot of servers have done just that, especially ones without stat caps. Think of it as an arms race, keeping up with the Joneses, or whatever... the net effect is the same. An out of control spiral. Side effects include low-to mid level players not being able to participate for much of the game, a need for maps with 'safe' rooms and server lag from XTREEM weapon speed and XTREEM monsters that can take minutes to kill.

A few minor nerfs aren't so bad.
 



I think "stronger" monsters is probably a misnomer here. Monsters can and should be able to respond to all of a player's abilities. Whether that means smarter behavior (ie, avoid the guy running the rod till he turns it off or runs out of adren), abilities that counter another ability (Monsters that cannot be frozen, for example), or emulating player abilities (A Monster that had a Rod-like power would be devastating to engineer bases).
Trooper

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Joined: 05/17/2008 15:32:06
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Mercenaries dont have shields... you are thinking of elite scarrj. I like the healer krall idea... kinda like the glowing ones in fallout 3. feral ghouls get healed by radiation, so midcombat, a glowing one would release a burst of radiation from their bodies, hurting you and healing ghouls.
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Elite

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Joined: 10/21/2007 13:24:50
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well since we are already on the topic for better balance and game-play, i made an observation with the fireball for the extreme AM. I see it is mainly useful for this subclass and not the normal AM. Maybe it and the chain lightning should be exclusively for the Extreme AM, providing uniqueness. Also the fireball is nice the way it is, the timer, the damage, and adren consumption is all balanced. Except during the later waves it becomes hard to kill monsters since they all come in hordes. Is it possible to enable beserking with this artifact only. So if one were to go beserk then the time it takes to use the artifact would decrease. I would say it is balanced since it takes time for the projectile to reach its target and the ability to miss is also there. At the moment if beserking was allowed for artifacts I think this should be the only artifact beserking should be allowed on for the moment, since most of the other artifacts are unaimed.

As for chain lightning it needs a boost of some kind, I would say increase the damage by a good amount but also increase the timer to like 10-15 sec since at the moment it is currently hard to aim at monsters meaning when you do eventually hit them, it will deal massive amounts of damage almost insta-gibing them. This would make it a favorite for titan waves and warlord waves or monsters that are relatively bigger. But whatever happens the chain lightning needs to change a little.

WM: 383 Elite_Guard(AI)
AM: 381 Elite_Junkie(AI)
MM: 382 Elite_Medic(AI)
EN: 384 Elite_Engine(AI)

My skin: Elite(AI)


Most rocket launcher kills: 459
Szlat

Wicked Sick!

Joined: 05/18/2005 18:32:41
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Elite wrote:
well since we are already on the topic for better balance and game-play, i made an observation with the fireball for the extreme AM. I see it is mainly useful for this subclass and not the normal AM. Maybe it and the chain lightning should be exclusively for the Extreme AM, providing uniqueness. Also the fireball is nice the way it is, the timer, the damage, and adren consumption is all balanced. Except during the later waves it becomes hard to kill monsters since they all come in hordes. Is it possible to enable beserking with this artifact only. So if one were to go beserk then the time it takes to use the artifact would decrease. I would say it is balanced since it takes time for the projectile to reach its target and the ability to miss is also there. At the moment if beserking was allowed for artifacts I think this should be the only artifact beserking should be allowed on for the moment, since most of the other artifacts are unaimed. 
Interesting idea. The fireball is meant to be the Extreme AMs rocket so berserking it perhaps ought to be ok. I will have a look.
EDIT: Note however you will still need to keep pressing the fire button - it is not like on a RL where you just keep the button depressed. For the player to sync the fire speed with the button pressing will not be easy.
Note this artifact damage is affected by DB/DR, so perhap it isnt the best one for later waves.

But I don't think I need to make it exclusive to the Extreme - the normal AMs get better weapon use which means they will tend to use the normal rocket not this

Elite wrote:
As for chain lightning it needs a boost of some kind, I would say increase the damage by a good amount but also increase the timer to like 10-15 sec since at the moment it is currently hard to aim at monsters meaning when you do eventually hit them, it will deal massive amounts of damage almost insta-gibing them. This would make it a favorite for titan waves and warlord waves or monsters that are relatively bigger. But whatever happens the chain lightning needs to change a little. 
Hitting with it is the same as hitting with the Beam. It is very useful against hordes of monsters - like you described earlier for the fireball. I do not really want to create an instagib instant hit artifact for titans. If that is the effect you are after, go for the megablast instead.
Spacey

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Joined: 01/07/2005 21:28:14
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Szlat wrote:

Thè-Hättêr wrote:
szlats.. the rod was nerfed because it was "zero" skill.. beam is waaay harder to use. must have perfect aim. that's skill....
and you are lowering the damage...

thats not rewarding having a the aim skills.. that is unfair, i wont post again a single sccreen shot. because when i proved that rod was not the source of my kills..the beam got nerfed. im so disapointment.. 
This was a last minute modification on my part, and I might well reverse it before the next build. It is not a big change.

The reason for doing it was nothing to do with your screen shot - it was a result of my testing. I was playing an Extreme AM and got a huge score before wave 10. I am not a good player - the beam kills were coming too easily. Ok, I didn't have the competition for the double damage, but taking out a queen in 2 shots (half a second) was too much.

Rather than increase the drain, or lower the effectiveness for the EXtreme AM I chose this path, so it will take one more shot for the queen - assuming there is nobody else shooting it.

But 360 piercing damage per shot is still way up there. 


Szlat... first, please see my reply in the 225 balance issue thread.

Now... 360 piercing damage per shot... how much damage can be done with say a piercing rocket (which normally can do 270 for a 3 round secondary).. How about an energy turret with no linkers? One with linkers?? Now, how about including maxed out fire rates... how much do they work out in HP/sec?? And let us now include the artifacts in the comparison, and consider the fact that some of these have no ammo limits, while the EAM must run everything they do of worth (be it a beam, a bolt, a rod, a blast, along with energy shields and the closest thing they have to regen/vamp that the WM and some others get) all goes out of a single 250 adren pool.

I also think we seriously need a table of all the weapons and artifacts with their base damage, base fire rate, base damage rate, adren usage or base ammo, time to 0 adren/ammo, and an indication of whether or not they are affected by things like DD, Triple, are piercing, etc. And maybe even add in columns for when you have max DB, Weapon Speed, etc. (turrets with linking could be interesting.) Only then will we all have something we all can look at, to get rid of what is effectively just fertilizer slung all over a field.

Oh... and also of import... we need to get the descriptions for the abilities updated not only in the code, but up on the web someplace (including costs), so that we know more about the ability.


*BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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Szlat

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Spacey wrote:
Now... 360 piercing damage per shot... how much damage can be done with say a..............

I also think we seriously need a table of all the weapons and artifacts with their base damage, base fire rate, base damage rate, adren usage or base ammo, time to 0 adren/ammo, and an indication of whether or not they are affected by things like DD, Triple, are piercing, etc. And maybe even add in columns for when you have max DB, Weapon Speed, etc. (turrets with linking could be interesting.) Only then will we all have something we all can look at, to get rid of what is effectively just fertilizer slung all over a field.  
I agree, that would be very useful.

I want to be clear - I do not enjoy nerfing stuff. I would much rather have everything more powerful than everything else. Personally I like killing things fast. But it spoils the gameplay if any one thing is perceived as excessively powerful.

I played some games with the additional end of wave adrenaline and the DD working on the beam, and it was too good. When it goes live on DC, I suspect the calls if any will be for further nerfing the beam not giving it the power back. So, lets wait and see.

Spacey wrote:
Oh... and also of import... we need to get the descriptions for the abilities updated not only in the code, but up on the web someplace (including costs), so that we know more about the ability. 
Agreed, but to what do I update them - the current state or the state after the next build?
Trooper

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maybe a "changelog". build X: functions this way with these numbers. build Y: functions this way. this is what is different. that way we know exactly what has changed since last build, and the casual observer realizes how much change/thought has gone into it to get it this far

EDIT: to clarify I mean in the wiki, having these listed for each item.
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dom60

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Joined: 09/30/2006 16:10:39
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Ok I thought I smelled something!





But yes the Wiki does need to be updated/clarified and the incremental way would be a interesting read. ...... so I hate to say it Szlat but bring it to current build but also as you do it make the info for the next build so that when dru gets it done all you need to do is plug it in. I really don't want to cause you a lot of work and stress over this, But we don't have any clue as to when dru will make and load the next build.

Now I'm gonna sit back and shut up before I get banned from the server for making you a loonie bin candidate.

I may be getting old and falling apart but I can sure can raise Hell and have fun doing it!
Trooper

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you've already made me one... I could use the company
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Szlat

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Spacey wrote:
I also think we seriously need a table of all the weapons and artifacts ..... 
First pass
Trooper

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ended up coming to some conclusions last night regarding medic. cribbage said that when he was in an invuln sphere, he could heal other players but wasnt getting xp for it. I also noticed that players in a sphere or using globe could be healed by my medic weapons, but if I activate the globe I can heal myself, or if I am in the sphere, I cant heal my self. I dont know if that was intended or was an accident but it does cause some difficulty when an unassuming am lights an invuln sphere and now that player is in trouble.

on a different side of things now, this has been suggested before but I dont recall the outcome... just that its not in atm. I was thinking if there could be an armour blast for engi, like the shield blast to heal turrets, sents, etc. there have been times I'm in a base healing a turret and I leave the turret for 3 secs to heal a dying defensive sent and in that time, the turret took enough damage to die. I dont think it should be a cheap cost blast. I think it should mainly be an "oh crap too many things are dying at once" button. if a medic has pets that are hurting, they can put out a healing blast or healing sphere to get them back up, so they can concentrate on other players or on enemies, but an engi has to stop what they are doing and take time healing only 1. even the medic rocket can heal more than 1 at a time. so I was thinking a 100 adren blast that heals the armour of constructions within a decent amount. since I dont know the health of sents, since when you spectate them it says they have -1200 health or something crazy like that, I cant give numbers there.
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Szlat

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and for comparison, what it is changing to. Items in red are different.
 
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