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Medic and Engineer inf weapons are too powerful  XML
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Poll
How should the Medic and Engineer weapons be reduced?
Reduce damage against monsters by 33%, remove berzerk from affecting these weapons. 41% [ 7 ]
Reduce damage against monsters by 50%, give option to purchase resupply lvl 1 24% [ 4 ]
Reduce damage against monsters by 66%, give option to buy resupply lvl 2 6% [ 1 ]
Change healing/engineer weapon to be a special link like gun that does no enemy damage. 12% [ 2 ]
Infinite weapons should be self resupplying instead of truly infinite. 18% [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 17
Author Message
Wail

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cribbage wrote:
The simple fact of the matter is that medics and engineers are playing more like an adrenaline master or a weapons master on account of their weaponry. This was never the intent for these classes.

Sorry, but it was never the plan for these classes to be able to earn a third of a level in XP with weapons intended for something else.

I am sorry to those of you that have been using this tactic to earn XP. This has to change and it is going to change. 



Sounds like nothing I say will matter, but here's what I think anyhow.

As a medic, I have been using this tactic to earn XP. I depend on the infinite medic weapon (usually a splash) to heal myself and to kill monsters. I know that there are a handful of players able to do this and earn more than a third of a level on a map. Please don't watch this small group of players and kill a class based on that observation.

It seems like the intent of the medic must have been to be a support role. Most smart medics know that healing teammates nets a ton of XP, but most experienced medics also know that this can be very difficult in the heat of battle, so healing usually is most easily done between waves. Also, if there are multiple medics on, the XP thins out. This leaves killing monsters the best way to gain XP during waves.

If there is no infinite medic weapon, or a medic weapon with reduced damage to monsters, than it seems like a medic will simply become a crippled weapons master.

If a medic cannot earn XP with the medic weapon by killing monsters, I think you will find very few people choosing to play a medic. The logic of taking away the medic weapon to prevent the medic from playing like a weapons master, which in turn forces the medic to play more like a weapons master is tenuous at best.

Depending on the changes, I'll probably retire from playing my medic, and since it's the only character I really care to play, I may retire from DC. This would be sad since I very much appreciate the community here and the safety for my kids to play here.
 


Agreed cribbage.

I play on DC as a change of pace from Monster Mash, in particular I play an Engineer here because it's different from what we have available on MM, which has developed in a different direction from Druids and core UT2004 gameplay. [Although, to be fair, most of the reason why I hang out here is to discuss RPG development and suggest code/ideas.]

I could play my level 20 something (well, he was higher before but he got wiped out recently...) Engineer without having a Link Gun weapon to rely on. But, to be honest, I'm not sure why I would want to. It's the only ability my Engineer has that makes him distinct in any way.

At this point the only thing my Engineer can do as unique class abilities are build blocks and barrels, and heal other people's shields. Well, barrels are a novelty, and blocks can be useful but I can't make enough of them to do anything consistently. So the best contribution I can make is to run around and fight with my Link, and heal everyone I come across -- Which is exactly what I do.

Sure, I could buy Resupply. But Resupply is just going to make me play more like a Weapons Master, rather than the marginally distinctive gameplay that being an Engineer offers. (Sure, a WM could just run around using Link the majority of the time too, but if I were a WM I wouldn't hamper myself this way.) If I really wanted that I would've made a WM instead.

Now, reality is there are a host of issues here to wrestle with. I don't want to get into all of them here because this post would be a mile long. Fact of the matter is Druid feels that Medics and Engineers are "too effective" (or IMO "semi-comparable in ideal circumstances") at participating in the core gameplay of Invasion, killing monsters.

As I've discussed elsewhere, I don't think standing around shooting people with Link/Flak to heal them is by itself compelling gameplay compared to all of the gameplay which is involved in killing monsters, and I think it's wrongheaded to try and force players to exclusively play a support role for that reason. Even the notion of a "support" class is not explained anywhere within the game itself. Nor do the game mechanics really correspond with the idea of support classes. For example, most people agreed that WMs are pretty self-sufficient and do not depend on the support of other classes. I'm not seeing the balance (interdependence) here. Why play a support role to a WM who doesn't really need you? Heck, now that AMs have the energy shield ability, they can also pseudo-heal themselves (gaining adrenaline through Energy Leech, which AMs can utilize in lieu of health).

Since overall design ideas like, "Medics and Engineers should always play second fiddle to WMs and AMs" aren't explicated anywhere in the game, I am not sure how anyone who just plays the game and doesn't visit the forums and discuss these things would know that after years of playing a certain way, the playstyle he had been using all this time was suddenly considered inappropriate and was being made substantially less effective. Seems like quite a drastic change in gameplay for many people, and as cribbage already indicated, enough to drive some of them away for good (I know I would probably also not bother playing my Engineer anymore either - I can play a WM well enough on Monster Mash already).
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Yes cribbage is right... when I first began to play here I already had a few years of practice and I am not sure but I believe the link turret and goliath were nurfed due to observations on me . Yes I was still a low level, but not many knew how experienced I was yet.

Am I and a few others like hobo the cause of the nerfing? I remember Micron renounced due to the bolt and triple nerfing back some time (the triple and bolt didnt make him a good player, and he was an extremely talented player especially with his WM)... this was a nerf based on observations on me. And now hearing others throwing in the towel due to nerfs probably in the next changes, because of me?
Is it better that one player must leave so the others can stay? I really enjoy it here on this server and love to play, but I might not be in the best interests of this server, as it is sounding

My tactic in playing is an aggressive one, sorry I cant change, too much Deathmatch has made me that way and no matter what, I will always strive be on top with no matter what class I am

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greg11

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I have mentioned that the engineer link is way overpowered. I can kill monsters much easier with link alt-fire than using the shield gun. I don't have a basis for the medic since my medic is still a pretty low level.

I would like to recommend putting a limit on bonuses due to linking (If not already added in 217.) There have been many times when a bunch of engineers would all link one turret which could kill titans in 1 or 2 shots.
Something like anything over 2 people linking should add no bonuses.

Compared to the medic, the engineer can get a lot more xp from shield healing. Shield healing takes only a second while a medic has to spend a almost 5-10 secs to fully heal a person. Medics don't get xp for healing players that just joined or respawned, while engineers do. Engineers can max their xp bonus pretty quickly while the medics can't.

I would like to mention that an AM with a vorpal 11 is not going to get as much exp since vorpals only give 1 xp when they pop.

What about nerfing medic and eng weps, and add abilities to strengthen them. This could help fix the lvl 30 engineers getting top score bug, but still let the higher level players get a decent score. (There are no points awarded for healing or supporting other players.)
Wail

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greg11 wrote:
I have mentioned that the engineer link is way overpowered. I can kill monsters much easier with link alt-fire than using the shield gun. I don't have a basis for the medic since my medic is still a pretty low level. 


I am curious why you would think the Shield Gun would be a better killing weapon than the Link Alt under any circumstances. The Shield Gun probably has one of the lowest DPS of any stock weapon, possibly excluding the Avril (31.25 DPS if you are using the Avril exclusively).

It's tricky to look at the DPS for the SG since the charge up gives it a damage spike on first strike, but if you fired it ASAP all the time you'd only be getting 40-60 DPS. Not exactly impressive when you could be using Flak or RL at ~100+DPS each.

greg11 wrote:
Compared to the medic, the engineer can get a lot more xp from shield healing. Shield healing takes only a second while a medic has to spend a almost 5-10 secs to fully heal a person. Medics don't get xp for healing players that just joined or respawned, while engineers do. Engineers can max their xp bonus pretty quickly while the medics can't. 


This is true. Maxing your healing ability as an Engineer is pretty simple, but as a Medic costs over 100 points (15+ levels).

I am not sure if anyone else has ever discussed this, but in some ways Engineers actually hurt Medics, since damage that would normally be absorbed by health (thus allowing Medics to heal that damage) instead is absorbed by shield (and thus Engineers heal it instead).

greg11 wrote:
I would like to mention that an AM with a vorpal 11 is not going to get as much exp since vorpals only give 1 xp when they pop. 


Well, a Vorpal 11 is not going to pop all that often. But it's still a guaranteed 110% extra damage on every shot. It's basically like running a Triple for free.

However, the Shock Rifle's DPS is only 64.285. The Link Gun primary's DPS is 150 (although you will only ever achieve that on Titans) and its secondary is 75 DPS. So against Titans, assuming you hit every shot, a Vorpal Shock +11 is inferior to a Link of Nothing +Nothing.

greg11 wrote:
What about nerfing medic and eng weps, and add abilities to strengthen them. This could help fix the lvl 30 engineers getting top score bug, but still let the higher level players get a decent score. (There are no points awarded for healing or supporting other players.) 


I am not sure why anyone should care about points at all. Experience is a far more useful metric to look at.



BTW Elite feel free to come over to Monster Mash sometime, I wouldn't mind seeing how you stack up compared to some of the top players there.
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I see a lot of good discussion in this thread, but one thing that hasn't been brought up yet is a release of Druid's RPG in its current form, before any drastic alterations are made. 2.17 is a huge step up from 2.0, and the current version does offer an enjoyable balance even if it isn't perfect, and is what has drawn regular players to this server over the last three years or so since the last official release.

Then go about any proposed changes. I enjoy the current balance, and I'd like to play this version offline and I'm sure many others would like to be able to host servers.

The new DC server:
Thè-Hättêr

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i feel that medic and engis inf wep are a problem. but not the main problem, after all well lets think..

why medics and engis use link and RL/Flak as a the WM and AM?

thats the real problem, now if you druid plan to solve the problem by nerfing weapons, then you might not be solving the problem, you are just polishing the surface and the problem may subist...

by solving that question the problem will end...

so why is it? well i think i got the answer EXP... lets face it, if you put a medic and the only thing he can do is healing then he could only get few points of exp each round, now that compared to a WM or AM , well in my opinion with the standar exp medic is given by healing.. he MUST go for fraggs, otherwise he wont level up any time soon..beside just healing well.. it isnt that fun.. sure a medic can kill with other weapons, but he isnt that effective.. the only advantage a medic has is pets.. a high lvl medic can put pets in a room then go to another and voaila! now he is in 2 different places and he can kill and HEAL

in the other side, engis face a different problem.. as ghost said. engis relay on other engis.. ( the only reason i play my engi is if another engi is playing and he is using a turret otherwise i go for my WM... engis use the link because if there is no high lvel player with a turret on they go for killing more exp that way.. in my entire life i havent go for killing if there is some high/mid lvel player in a turret.. the only reasons i go for kills are.
if there is no one else, which means im the only one left ..
all engis died or
other engis only can do the TC.. ..

im giving the reasons at least why i go for kills in medic and engi... and there are two solutions...

1)disencourage..
this solution is the standar for 99.99% of the population in the world. now if you are like the 99.99% ( there is nothing wrong with it..) want to know who other people will persive you if you disencourage?
if you do something wrong you dad comes and may leave you without dinner... or he might ground you.. now what happend if he grounded and you had nothing to do with the problem? ( sound familiar?)
i guess everytime your dad did something like this you well not hate him, but just dont like it.
now thats what you are doing, nerfing the problem wont solve a thing.. as a matter of fact player will find the way to gain more exp.. thats the ultimate goal of almost every player gain exp.. now that fact you cant change.. if you change weps players will figurate other thing if you nerf it. well they will change the server.. thats the inevitable remark..

well as i said i got a solution.. insted of nerfing weapon why not nerfing exp..after all hey if im sourrounded by monster no matter what i wont say.. look skaajar i wont kill you, i have only a link (or a flak) and if i kill you i wont have my dinner at night.. no, i WILL use my avaible weapons.. and yes link and flak count as weapons..

now if you nerf the exp, player that kill will try to use other weapons insted of the link or medic weapon.. if you nerf exp with that weapons, then you better give medics and engis other thing. after all you cant win ever battle, if you dont u might face a riot. and i bet no one will ever pic medic and engis because they are impossible to play, to many risk, and low exp/rate.

2) encourage..
this soultion means you are in the .01% of the world, and here well you actualy encourage people to use there skills to... lets take for example WM, that class is well coded and well skilled. players are encouraged to kill with their guns, why? they have resupply, a huge DB, and Vamp.. if you took the DB then the WM is pointles. and no player will ever play with WM..
now druid you must encourage the players to use they arsenal, but the right arsenal.. lets say they gain more exp by linking. that way. no engi will try to kill with link.. ( after all they are losing exp that they could gain by linking) and same goes for medics. perhaps you could build a bonus if i dont know as engi you heal shields lets say 1000 points of shield.. or if you heal 1500 points of HP. then the medic in question or engi will try to heal and shield.. i dont know there are many answers..

by the way. i know its your server and i respect that, but if you put 3 o 4 answers in the poll box, then you are limiting other players to think in alternative solutions.. if you dont want alternative solutions and you want to nerf it, well just do it.. after all its your server and dont let us give or opinion, it wont matter

now you got my point. if hope you get the idea.

and i hope nothing in this post result offensive, thats my goal to keep things balanced.. and not to create chaos.

( i agree with wail, characters DO NOT help each other or depend at least now.. they might help other but the last time i checked on the dictionary depends means "cant live with out"
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Wail

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Thè-Hättêr wrote:

so why is it? well i think i got the answer EXP... lets face it, if you put a medic and the only thing he can do is healing then he could only get few points of exp each round, now that compared to a WM or AM , well in my opinion with the standar exp medic is given by healing.. he MUST go for fraggs, otherwise he wont level up any time soon..beside just healing well.. it isnt that fun.. sure a medic can kill with other weapons, but he isnt that effective..  



Some pretty good points Hatter/Paradoxx. I would reiterate my point that the interestingness of the gameplay is not something to discount either.

You could make a class that gains tons of experience from jumping up and down in one spot. If, in this hypothetical example you could gain a couple of levels every map just from doing this... You'd definitely be gaining lots of experience, but unless that experience is tied to gameplay that players find compelling they mostly* won't bother.

* Caveat here: Some players are competitive that even the most boring, banal activity will become fun if they have someone else to compete against while doing it.

I enjoy healing people / playing support roles, no matter the game. But at the end of the day UT2004 is still a first person shooter, and killing monsters is the goal of invasion. To translate the gaming experience of a healer in say, Guild Wars to UT2004 would require a ton of work not just on an interface level but also in restructuring existing DruidsRPG stuff, and even on a social level. I'm not convinced this is a desirable or even feasible goal (but, hey, that's why we have code forks).
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Elite wrote:
Yes cribbage is right... when I first began to play here I already had a few years of practice and I am not sure but I believe the link turret and goliath were nurfed due to observations on me . Yes I was still a low level, but not many knew how experienced I was yet.

Am I and a few others like hobo the cause of the nerfing? I remember Micron renounced due to the bolt and triple nerfing back some time (the triple and bolt didnt make him a good player, and he was an extremely talented player especially with his WM)... this was a nerf based on observations on me. And now hearing others throwing in the towel due to nerfs probably in the next changes, because of me?
Is it better that one player must leave so the others can stay? I really enjoy it here on this server and love to play, but I might not be in the best interests of this server, as it is sounding

My tactic in playing is an aggressive one, sorry I cant change, too much Deathmatch has made me that way and no matter what, I will always strive be on top with no matter what class I am

....This is my say on the matter 


Elite, it's not just you or anyone else. We have a bunch of very talented players on DC who can score mega points regardless of class or available weapons. I believe Dru watched me on a couple of maps, as a level 84 engineer, score 800+ points and 1200+ xp without getting into a turret or setting a sent by just using my engineer link.

I do agree with him on the need to do something since I should not be able to come close to my WM average without using a turret. But at the same time, I'm concerned that when the turret is destroyed that I not be left defenseless while I'm switching weapons. That's why I voted for the 1st option.

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I agree with Wail. I think that we shouldn't touch weapon ability to inflict damage. Instead, you could make it self-resupplying (a bit, about 1-3 ammo in a sec), so player could have something to shoot. And when player uses his weapon for right purposes(healing, shielding, repairing) the ammo won't consume or will resupply a lot, so player could help for a long time(for ever, of course, better).
P.S. It's, of course Wail's idea, but that is how i see it.
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as one of the higher lvl Medics that plays regularly I will be quick to point out were my higher scores come from

1: monsters (my brutes/behemoths are great for xp/adren)
2: Lightning Rod (my scores increase a large amount when I have on)
3: Berserk (with adren drip maxed I used to berserk a LOT)

without a healthy supply of adren from kills I cannot use heal blast which I use very often to keep other players alive as a Medic RL takes more than a few hits to heal someone

I would ask that medics be separated from Engineers in this topic though
I'm not going to comment on Engineers at the moment, but as a higher level medic , and LW I can tell you maxed adv DB and any Flak/RL is more powerful than my my medic weapons
the infinite side is useful (if a little spam inducing) more for healing

and I would like to point out my scores as a medic though usually very high do not reflect my contribution as teammate and my ability to help others (keep them alive) which is something I pride myself in
as with any class the medic or the engineer can be played outside "the box" and even I will at times play much more aggressive (Titan waves WOooo! )

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edman007 wrote:

TheDruidXpawX wrote:
I wouldn't dream of taking away the ability to heal yourself. It may just look a bit different. 
Well it sounds like you are doing that, <snip> 


We are not. The medic requires the ability to self heal.

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Well, here's the issues, plain and simple.

Issue 1. The infinite link gun is way too good. This is the heart of the problem.
Regardless of class, the link gun does the most damage per second. If you can get an infinite model in any way, it dramatically affects your ability to score positively, and it dramatically affects everyone else's ability to earn exp.

I don't really care if it's an engineer, a weapons master, or someone that hasn't even picked a class.

You pile an additional weapon speed of 50 on top of that and then run berzerk and it's just flat out unhinged.

Also, every single fire of that weapon has to be transmitted to every player on the server. We dropped weapon speed down from 80 to 50 many years ago for this very reason.

I'm not horribly concerned about these weapons overly much at the 50 weapon speed, but if you can berzerk them, the results are dramatic.

The simple fact of the matter is that the infinity portion of the link gun has got to go. The class is irrelevant to this issue.

Issue 2: The engineer's most powerful weapon should not be their link gun.
The engineer was supposed to build a base with some sort of turret or vehicle that they could sit in and plug the baddies. Mobility was never the goal. The Link gun was never supposed to be the best weapon in their arsenal. The fact that there is tremendous argument on this point indicates that the point of playing this class is a failure. Apparently we need to come up with new motivations to be an engineer.

Issue 3: The medic's most powerful ability should not be their infinite weapon.
The Monster Master was not even going to be a medic. The addition was to keep your all-to-weak pets alive. I was flat stunned when people wanted to play this class as a support class for everyone else and did not care about having monsters. We added the EXP element to the healing weapons to bolster this team spirit.

The class was never intended to be used as a full out attacking role, but it was also not intended to be in a full support role. Again, the fact that there is tremendous argument on this point indicates that the point of playing this class is a failure. We need new reasons to be a medic and monster master.

Issue 4: These classes are fun to play as they are
Now that doesn't indicate that either of these classes aren't fun to play. In fact they may be a better fit in their current role under the Subclasses that Szlat wants to introduce. I'd say that some hybrid between the weapons master and each of these classes is what most people want to play. You wont feel nerfed if we do it this way, however you will have a reduced engineer or reduced monster master/medic role in exchange for your weapon abilities.

Issue 5: The sky is falling. The world is ending.
If anyone regardless of skill can regularly obtain a third of a 10k level during a single 16 wave game, we will be changing it. It's not cheating on your part, but it is unbalanced, and it is unfair to the other players for me to leave it in this state.


As a note. I'm far more concerned about XP than I am about score.

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MrAndrew wrote:
Instead, you could make it self-resupplying (a bit, about 1-3 ammo in a sec), so player could have something to shoot. And when player uses his weapon for right purposes(healing, shielding, repairing) the ammo won't consume or will resupply a lot 

This idea has lots of potential. Vote item added for this.

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Elite wrote:
when I first began to play here I already had a few years of practice and I am not sure but I believe the link turret and goliath were nurfed due to observations on me . Yes I was still a low level, but not many knew how experienced I was yet. 


I don't want this thread to go too far off course, but I want the link turret back. If anyone can figure out a sane way to do this. I'm all ears. I freaking love the thing.

Elite, I know you may think this sounds like this is about a small group of individuals that are highly skilled (yourself included), but it's really not.

I hadn't a clue how wicked awesome an infinite link gun was until I watched you and hobo go nuts with them. I hadn't a clue that I could with my adren master run berzerk and a trip damage, or a bolt, or with invuln pretty much the entire game by using an infinite link gun.

I think I'd actually earn less exp with a vorpal link gun because it would pop the monsters for 1 xp and then run out of ammo.

I now know I can, and I've no doubt that I'd be trying to spawn this more common weapon constantly vs trying to spawn a vorpal. Now multiply that by 15 players and there's not enough room in the maximum packet size for unreal to broadcast all the traffic.

I've got no doubt in my mind that an infinite link is far and away superior to any vorpal weapon you can spawn. I as an AM can do crazy more with this weapon than I suspect an engineer or a medic can and I'm sure the weapons master is in the same boat.

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In closing on this topic for the evening, I have to say that I've heard some really great ideas about how to handle this problem in this thread, and I'd like to hear more.

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The fundamental problem is this: The first word we learn as children is NO. From that point forward society teaches women that saying no isn't polite, and society teaches men to respect those who wont take no for an answer.

The world is what you make of it, my friend. If it doesn't fit, you make alterations. -- Stella, The Morning Star
 
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