A different aproach to balance classes. and some heavy thoughs about DC classes

well first of all, i will do my best with the lenguage, now i really didnt pay attention to my gramar and spelling course, so if you dont get my point of view, or its not clear enough well too bad i did my best!! no jk, i will try to clarify the topic..

Disclaimer 1. ok this is important, with this "new" way of thinking i dont want to resurrect old topics i just want to get of my system all the things i feel. if you cant keep things simple dont read please i ask kindly

Disclaimer 2. this is not a battle, this is not me against you or you vs him... this is a relaxed talking afteral we dont win anything its not our server

Disclaimer 3. if your eyes start to bleed because you read so much.. sorry my insuranse wont cover it proably neither yours..

ok first of all, last night i was having a bad time with my engi, i couldnt make the exp i was wanting ( no one showed to the engi's night i tryed to set up) so i started to play iCTF and since im godlike in that game i left it too and i was there sitting in my room doing nothing wen it came to my mind the problem with AM cutting to their knees, the problem with the WM that es underpower and soo on. well here is what came to me.

i think that the problem with AM bolt triple and all that artifacts isnt the artifacts it self well mostly the way i see it is thatartifact just make a little part of what a AM is.

now i see WS DB DR HP AB and AB as the ground skills now, if character were a house they would be the foundation, if you took all the skills and everything all the classes would be the same, now comes the tricky part. all common skills ( you can say, air master, smart healing etc) could be the carpet, the garden of the house, and sure they help to determinate how tall the house can be, and so on, now the unique skills like Loaded Weps, armor regeneration, loaded artifacts , or pets, could be the roof. and the way is how characters are "build"( except engi's they build they own way!! jejeje)

now i see that if characters would hoses well the Wep master could be a tall house with a normal roof, Adren Masters, well they are just an average house, but with a huge antena ( PPV system probably) Medics well they arent a huge house, no sir they have many many small houses and one normal size, and engis are well i still dont have a "house type" for them but i will.

few months ago many players were complaining about AM, they kick butt everything BLAH BLAH BLAH, and admins tried to cut the Antena and make it just DISH insted of SKY, but guess what didnt worked because maybe the problem is not the size or the fancy things in a AM life, maybe is that he has a tall house and if it were my call insted of taking all the fun and cut the triple and Rod and all the shinny things AM has, why not make their house a little bit smaller, like if they have a huge antena, maybe they need a smaller house to match the rest o the clases,. lets say, insted of quickfoot lvl 5 AM could just be i dont know quickfoot level 2 or 3, and give them back few other skills they Admins took from them ( not the abussive tricks they have) now i must admit i complained at least ones, because someone that start with the letter E and ends with LITE, was killing everything in sight and i could do a thing he was faster than im and do a huge damage. well those players can do damage sure they can, but if they arent that faster then, at least normal players like us can get few points.. and everything can be normal.. you know my point? AM, do a colossal damage, but if they are slower well that leaves weapon masters, medics a chance do kill.. ( no im my example i said quickfoot, but there are other bonus and other things to match things)

On other topic, few players said that wep masters har underpower, well its somehow true, so, again wep masters tried to add few skills like LW6 or an artifact that +1 weps, i dont knwo many other things that are weapon related, and everytime Dru and Shan said no, they want WM to depend on AM class, well insted of the "inside the box" idea of better weapons, why not they being a little more rocked skin ( i dont know HP)? or insted of 250 max adren mm i dont know 300? now they will still depend on AM but in that way, they are better and the conception of WM being the fighter class will prevail..

and talking about how classes depend on each other i made a matrix to show how classes DO not Depend on each other..

WM with..
WM Meh its the same(2)
AM no! unless is brandi or another “good” AM(1.5)
MEd Meh, medics help but with a decent vamp lvl I can do it(2)
Eng Meh, they have their own gettos(2)

AM with
WM A WM? …(2)
AM Maybe, if they have a E flak(3)
Med YESSS please and if is Miss or Mr wayno better(3)
Eng Meh, they have their own gettos(2)

Med with
WM The same I don’t need em(2)
AM The same I don’t need em(2)
Med The same I don’t need em(2)
Eng Meh, they have their own gettos(2)

Eng with
WM Wow there is another class besides engi?(1)
AM Wow there is another class besides engi?(1)
Med Wow there is another class besides engi? But sometimes they are handy(2.5)
Eng Wow common ! lets link each other(3)

Now in this table i showed of how each class interact with another class, yeas there are exceptions, but thats how it mostly works. as you can see Meds and WM dont need another class mostly, sure they help but if they didnt exist the world will continue, by the other side almost everyone need a Med. while engis are the most selfish class ever created.. they need no one...

now this is my own criteria and might change acording levels.. by the way i gave a 3 point system, while 1 means, i dont neeed you, 3 means i would like to work with you..

final words... this game isnt about score at least to me, its about Exp and making the map and doing tru the final wave
it dosent matter if meds take 300 levels to max their power, its not about that it is about how you max it. the path you follow, in logical terms if im a WM i will buy core skills then i will make my life easier and finaly i will buy things like LW 5 and so on, the level of characters means nothing, but how you do it.. i have seen this argument before we cant add more levels to this character because people will take longer to max, well its not about how long but the right time to level.. thanks.. hope your eyes dont bleed with my post

Nice post Hatter ... now that my eyes have stopped bleeding.

Wm definitely depend on AM, without them it's a very under powered class. Problem is, so many newbs are going eng that there are times I'm playing my WM and there are no AMs to be found so I'm stuck with weak weapons and thus, not nearly as powerful. Or newb AM that doesn't share quality weaps. Don't know where there is a happy compromise except for a need to recruit more AM players (and yes I am playing my AM more often now). I really don't see a need for a Level 6 WM except when there are no AMs playing.

As far as dependency on medics ... after vamp 10 the presence of medics is mute, and when running around collecting adren between waves I typically anger newb medics eager for healing exp because I don't stop for healing, I need adren far more than healing.

As far as a fix for the "underpowered" WM I would suggest:

denial 3 for WM: keep all weapons

and/or

adren max level increased to 300 or 350 or maybe just add adrenal drip or surge skill to WM class

very interesting post
Surge would give too much adren, me thinks adren drip maybe lvl 1, or 2

easiest way to get more AMs and WMs playing get more Medics

at lower levels a WM definitely needs a medic thats why soo many newer players have gone for eng (that an an inf wep)
as for AMs they need medics all the time

A huge part of the reason I kept playing here when I started was because of medics like Brandi , and TON
players that would go out of their way to heal me , I continued that tradition with my medic PAINKILL
but their are fewer and fewer medics that are of high enough level to really be a rallying point for other players
too many haven't figured out you can still get good scores while your ensuring others survive (heal blast people...its a huge ability)

as for the WM are underpowered idea , meh I can play a whole map with mine avoiding every other player on if I can (they kill my nalis, yeah I aim slow ...) thus can be very selfish
AMs are rely highly on other players for shields and heath but from my experience with my AM , its high gain/big kills or nothing
the AM class seems best designed for surgical like strikes sit back get your weapons,adren ready BOOM , then recuperate

whoa talk about bleeding eyes its getting late and I'm blabbering on...

the biggest way to balance the classes is for everyone to realize there are other players on as well and working as a team is much more fun than playing with ones self because you can do that offline.
that being said it's up to the longer running players to set the example for the newer so they understand why this server is so awesome

blah blah blah DC RULES nite

I would echo the "teamwork" aspect of this server and its classes.

Soloing for ANY class is (and should be) very tough.

I think that the belief of any class being unbalanced many times falls on the notion that each class should be able to go it alone. (all else being equal, i.e., a maxed out player at that class)

There is nothing sweeter than playing a match with a few of each class on, and watching them work like a well oiled machine. I've seen us absolutely annihilate (sp?) a map like it was nothing when everyone works together.

Having said that, experienced high level players can definitely go solo and be dominating. It takes guts, skill, and luck.

I do get tired of the constant debate over one class being too powerful. Whatever that may mean.

The bigger question IMO, is what does "too powerful" mean? If we are basing that strictly on the scoreboard, then I think the argument is moot. Medics and Engis tend to be more of support classes, and thus normally don't rack up massive scores (unless you are TON, cribbage, Z, Elite, Demon, and a few others). But those cases are the exception, not the rule. So we cannot judge what is unbalanced by the few players that seem to lead the scoreboard in certain classes.

I would say that if we look to tweak a class, let's focus on things that help them aid in the teamwork aspect. Remember what each class is designed to do, and work toward fine tuning their skills.

Based on what I hear from many players is that there are issues regarding how long it takes to level up in certain classes. Medics for the most part tend to be a VERY tough leveling grind. They get most of their XP from healing, and it can be frustrating when people constantly run away as you try to heal them. This may be more of a player behavior issue than anything else, but how do we counteract that? Sending a friendly reminder to stand still while you get healed message is good. Lately I have noticed that there aren't many medics on. Maybe it's because players are discouraged from playing that class in its current state. Medics are a very important class.

So, perhaps the bottom line is "unbalanced" may have more to do with how much XP is gained by each class performing their intended "duties", rather than who seems to dominate the scoreboard or be the last one standing in a match. I'd like to see any changes we implement be designed to help a class gain XP by doing their job. There is no better way to encourage teamwork, and get players to want to try other classes....thus ensuring that we tend to have the right mix of classes playing in a match at any given time.

I find that what makes this server fun for me is that I get a sense of satisfaction from being able to help us win, no matter what class I play at the time. If I'm using my medic, I don't care about the scoreboard. I just want to make sure everyone is healed up, and get my fair share of XP doing it. Same with my Eng. When I play my AM, I am in seek and destroy mode and kill everything that moves. Whatever class you play, you depend (in most cases) on help from the others. That's the way it should be.

/.02 donated

Throwing a couple of dollars into the mix here,

First off, re: TheElectrician's speculation about lack of Medics. DruidsRPG200 is available everywhere and offers the WM, AM, and Medic classes. Chances are you've played one of these elsewhere and so if you play on any other servers in addition to DC you probably want to try something new -- That leaves you with the Engineer. I have no idea how generally applicable this line of reasoning is, but it's definitely true for me.

----

"Unbalanced" is indeed a tricky thing to call, as the meanings shift.

Obvious example: Vorpal Shock Rifle. It's by far the best Shock Rifle you can have, and there's almost no reason to ever prefer anything else over the Vorpal Shock Rifle. I think the Vorpal Shock Rifle is unbalanced compared to other weapon choices, but not necessarily unbalanced in the sense of being too powerful (a Tripled Null/Freezing Link, for example, is going to give you a much higher raw DPS, although I suspect in real-life situations a Vorpal Shock will outperform it just because hitscan weapons are better than projectile weapons).

In the more general sense of RPG Invasion, the question of what's unbalanced depends on what you perceive the goal of the game to be. For example, some people think the goal is to survive until the end of wave 16. Is this actually the goal? The experience reward you get for surviving all 16 waves isn't all that substantial. On the other hand, if you're killing monsters it's not that tough to rack up many times that amount of experience through the course of the game. If your overall goal is to advance your character quickly then your goal should probably be killing monsters.

Rewards for healing (health or shields) complicate matters somewhat, but I am not sure that the compensation is comparable to the experience that can be gained from focusing on killing monsters. Even assuming that they are identical in experience-earning power, what provides a more generally compelling gameplay experience with depth for strategy and skill?: Dodging attacks from 3 different directions as you focus on taking down your target, potentially using many different artifacts, weapons/weapon modifiers to kill/stay alive, or standing around shooting a Healing Flak / Engineer Link into someone's face or rear end?

That's basically the rub for me. I enjoy playing support characters in all kinds of games, and I enjoy playing Medics / Engineers in UT2004 RPG, but the reality is that the support role gameplay is pretty comparatively shallow to the core gameplay of UT2004 invasion (fighting monsters), and even moreso when you consider the elements that RPG adds.

My attitude is that every class should be comparable in ability to participate in the core Invasion gameplay and also have something to add to the team. The current design perspective of DC seems to be that adding value to the team should penalize your capabilities personally, and that class differentiation can only be achieved by strictly restricting the ability of certain classes to perform certain goals (rather than developing the game in such a way that some things can be achieved multiple ways by different classes).

Particularly with the advent of subclasses as a real option, I think it's plenty possible to reassess things and add options for each class that are designed to work together in a complementary way, while also allowing players to build their characters in a way that can shore up some of the shortcomings that cripple characters in some ways (e.g. Medics sacrifice pets & infinite property on healing weapon for Resupply, etc.).

well i dont feel WM depend on AM, at most they help WM to max weapon, well thats how i persive the relation between those clases, if there is no AM and im playing as WM i tend to commit suicide in order to get better weapons until i feel comfortable with the result... but in the other hand i must agree with you guys having a a nice AM that really helps, and max weps then things go smoother! now i feel damage and invulnerability sphere, well those skills help but tend to help to players that camp like medics and engis' because AM tend to do it only when a huge amount of players are camping.. and most of the time WM do not stay in one place.

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

well i dont feel WM depend on AM, at most they help WM to max weapon, well thats how i persive the relation between those clases, if there is no AM and im playing as WM i tend to commit suicide in order to get better weapons until i feel comfortable with the result... but in the other hand i must agree with you guys having a a nice AM that really helps, and max weps then things go smoother! now i feel damage and invulnerability sphere, well those skills help but tend to help to players that camp like medics and engis' because AM tend to do it only when a huge amount of players are camping.. and most of the time WM do not stay in one place.

I agree with this.

An Adrenaline Master does not depend on a Weapon Master, nor vice versa.

An Adrenaline Master is complementary to a Weapon Master for providing weapons and artifacts. A Weapon Master is not complementary to an Adrenaline Master in any inherent way.

Although IMO the biggest thing that WMs bring to the team is the ability to die and pass out weapons ... Which is really kind of dubious behavior in my eyes since it's rewarding the counterintuitive behavior of killing yourself to benefit yourself/your team.

The strange thing is the WM is one of the best designed classes from the perspective of how its skills are laid out, but probably IMO the worst designed class from what its abilities actually do. All its major abilities (Loaded Weapons, Vampirism, Resupply, Advanced Damage Bonus) are passive, and it's not necessarily providing anything unique to the team or even requiring anything from the team.

To some extent I agree. The wm is very self sufficient, yet the power of the class is in the weapons. While the loaded weap 5 character spawns with all positive magic weapons, unless there is an am playing, his/her strength is marginalized. There is a big difference between a piercing 1 and a piercing 6. AM also create more powerful weapons to hand out, again, maximizing the wm's power. With no am on, the difference can be dramatic, and this happens frequently these days. As far as contributions to the team effort, well indirectly the wm certainly helps attain victory as he/she can be responsible for many frags leading to that enormous xp bonus upon completion of wave 16.

But as far as dependence, yes the wm depend on AM because without them, a wm can not truly be all they can be!

HighwratH wrote:

To some extent I agree. The wm is very self sufficient, yet the power of the class is in the weapons. While the loaded weap 5 character spawns with all positive magic weapons, unless there is an am playing, his/her strength is marginalized. There is a big difference between a piercing 1 and a piercing 6.

Actually... That's probably not a good example.

A Piercing 1 is no different from a Piercing 6 except in additional damage bonus provided.
A WM of high enough level will have ADB, which itself provides quite a bit of additional damage bonus... I haven't run the numbers for what you'd see on DC specifically, but I know for Vorpal weapons in DruidsRPG200 at DB 300 a WM's ADB corresponds in damage to adding +2 to a Vorpal 10. With the new ADB used on DC that's a +3 in damage to a Vorpal 10.

At this point I wouldn't be too surprised if a WM with max ADB was pushing a Piercing 1 to a Piercing 6 just by holding it.

Does a AM maxing a weapon for a WM benefit them? Sure, but is that crucial to a WM? Not really IMO.

I don't know if I am making the right choice by putting my opinion here ... but here goes, A WM as for me depends practically nothing on an AM... and for the WM yes good weapons help make the game funner but I don't think they necessarily make you score higher

For example before the changes... I as a WM was playing Tutorial Classic with weapons that suck (I am not the type of person that would quite and re-enter just to get better weapons I find that a loss in time while i could be killing

) so i stayed with some study weapons and a vamp flak3 i believe, so I lasted through all the waves up to 16 with no triple or rod just a mere globe scoring over 4.5k. No AMs on... so you see WM don't need AMs, well at all or medics or engineers, a Piercing weapon might help every once in a while though

All WM need are low level players to be on

Elite wrote:

All WM need are low level players to be on

This does make the biggest difference of all, no doubt about it.

Maybe AM doesn't make WM better or more powerful, but it sure is more fun when there's a good AM on.

HighwratH wrote:

Elite wrote:

All WM need are low level players to be on

This does make the biggest difference of all, no doubt about it.

Maybe AM doesn't make WM better or more powerful, but it sure is more fun when there's a good AM on.

them same can be said of a good medic or even a good engineer

and as a giving WM I frequently give away good * (non-copyable) weapons that I think someone else will benefit more from than me
we need to remember that the WM is base class for this server everything else was designed as support

i got another aproach to how well balanced classes are.. maybe the EXP could be a better indicator in how well a class i doing, after all maybe a linking engi, worth more than a passive engi.. and the exp he get is higher than the score he is doing..
sure the EXP indicator may also show the skill.. you know first blood 25 exp extra.. but could be better.. if you think it right, then you could realice score means nothing... you dont level up by doing frags, insted you level up by doing damage

Well paradox in a way your partly correct but then again your partly wrong ... theres two ways to level on this server passively and aggressively. Now while passively means healing and linking and etc but you will always make more xp by killing... how you ask?
Well you see every time you kill it ranks up like double multi mega and etc. as these accumulate you get additional xp from each one and if you get the holy kills (each one 50 xp i think) that comes out to a few hundred extra xp during titan waves... xp i dont want to miss out on. Thats the jist of it you still have to put into consideration the adrenaline that you recieve back for killing the monsters

So as i said in a way your right SCORE does mean NOTHING.... but the number of KILLS mean EVERYTHING... well leveling wise

Wail wrote:

Obvious example: Vorpal Shock Rifle. It's by far the best Shock Rifle you can have, and there's almost no reason to ever prefer anything else over the Vorpal Shock Rifle.

Actually, there's the SSR (Super Shock Rifle), which is a 1 hit/1 kill set-up used in some servers, basically a mega vorpal.

As a high-level WM and mid-level talent, I feel that (repeat after me) teamwork (repeat after me) is the best when all classes are working together. Yes, there are some of us that can score mega-points at any time and can completely dominate a map without question and we do at times.

However, to expect ANY high-level player, regardless of class, going solo and win the map is totally unrealistic. All high-level players, level 300 and over, need low level players alive to score the big points.

As it stands, I feel that the WM/AM/MM/MEDIC classes are balanced, as they are. Interesting enough, my level 80+ engineer has outscored my 600+ WM many times over. Where's the balance in that?

By the time a player gets to the "100" level in a particular class, that player should be able to keep pace with all other "100" level players, regardless of class, taking into consideration those few players who are very talented.

Personally, I do not watch the scoreboard and don't really care about my score, regardless of class. I'm in the game because I enjoy playing.