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+5's and triple dmg.  XML
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Mystic

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Joined: 12/21/2004 21:36:56
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the flak 5,. requires no aiming realy..except mosqitos.. its a spread shot,that bounces off walls.. as the other weapons actualy require some aim.

the flak itself isnt bad...
im actualy more concerned about this triple..
if thier was a way to make it break once activated but drain your adrenalin.So you couldnt turn it off and on.. that would be a good fix... and even out the classes,
getting rid of the triple is the best solution thoe.. i mean cmon ..you dont realy need it lol. thiers many doubles and u can spawn them with lucky's.
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[KitFox]

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the flak 5,. requires no aiming realy
 


Lol i hear that argument since UT99. A full blast flak requires as good aiming as sniper. Unless you are satisfied with that single shell that will do 5 damage....


if thier was a way to make it break once activated but drain your adrenalin.So you couldnt turn it off and on.. that would be a good fix...
 


Completelly disagree on this. Make it break once deactivated/out of adren maybe. So at least people could use it at least once.


getting rid of the triple is the best solution thoe..
 


Get rid of my Tripple as a LA, And you better remove Super Weapon, Mines and Avril from LW.


i mean cmon ..you dont realy need it lol. thiers many doubles and u can spawn them with lucky's.
 


Yes i need tripple. As much as LW needs the fore mentionned weapons.

Mystic it looks like youre asking for a LA nerf of some sort, the class that is the hardest to play. I dont understand. If theres 10 player on the server, there is like one LA for 7 LW and 2 medics on average. Its not for nothing.
You dont hear us whine on Avril... yesterday there must have been 15-16 LW online, there was so much avrils in the air seeking that it was almost impossible to kill mobs.

But thats the game. And i like it as it is.

Edit: I removed complete. Always exagerate. sorry
BotFodder

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KitFox wrote:

Mystic wrote:

the flak 5,. requires no aiming realy
 

Lol i hear that argument since UT99. A full blast flak requires as good aiming as sniper. Unless you are satisfied with that single shell that will it with 5 damage....
 


I agree with Kit here. And when you stop and think about it, on wave 16, on an open map, one-on-one with a monster (most notably queens and warlords), the Flak can become quite useless - even with good aim.

KitFox wrote:

Mystic wrote:

if thier was a way to make it break once activated but drain your adrenalin.So you couldnt turn it off and on.. that would be a good fix...
 

Completelly disagree on this. Make it break once deactivated/out of adren maybe. So at least people could use it at least once.
 


Disagree with both - as at LA 3, you get unbreakable artifacts, and this limitation goes away to a large extent. Maybe that's the reward for spending all the points, but I like things fine enough the way they are.

KitFox wrote:

Mystic wrote:

getting rid of the triple is the best solution thoe..
 

Get rid of my Tripple as a LA, And you better remove Super Weapon, Mines and Avril from LW.
 


While not advocating removal of the triple, I disagree with your parallel.

The triple is useful no matter the map, and even on open maps, the slower fire rate of the Avril (In My Experience So Far, as my WS is not maxed yet), and the fact that it only locks on to about half of the monsters (admittedly all of the big ones), makes it only decent, and only good for distance shots. On tight maps, only the mine layer is the more useful of the LW weapons you pick on, and I still think it's usefulness, while not completely useless, is often overrated.

I think right now that things are fairly balanced both ways, though at any level (assuming LW 5 and LA 3 in competition), I think an LA will usually outpace an LW (especially in later waves) if the LW hasn't stumbled upon a triple. I haven't done the math yet, but give one of you guys LW 3 with Ad. Drip and 150 Adren, and you're doing pretty good ... you get to magic even normal weapons and then max them. I'd be curious as to how an LA would do with a Vamp Flak maxed out and the Triple. Probably better than an LW without a Triple, to be sure. Our ability to buy Vamp and Regen don't really match up with your always having a Triple, I think.

KitFox wrote:

Mystic wrote:

i mean cmon ..you dont realy need it lol. thiers many doubles and u can spawn them with lucky's.
 

Yes i need tripple. As much as LW needs the fore mentionned weapons.
 


Yes well I don't see doubles spawn with lucky weapons nearly as much as everything else (vials and pills, particularly) seem to spawn. And I have to be wielding said lucky weapon at the time.

To be honest, I don't have a great need for my mine layer (although I use it when I think of it), my avril (which I make use of on some later waves, on open maps, and occasionally). And as for super weapons, yes, they are nice to start out with - but much like the LW's ability to eventually stumble across a Triple, there are usually super weapon spawn points on maps where a super weapon would be very useful.

KitFox wrote:

Mystic it looks like youre asking for a complete LA nerf of some sort, the class that is the hardest to play. I dont understand. If theres 10 player on the server, there is like one LA for 7 LW and 2 medics on average. Its not for nothing.
You dont hear us whine on Avril... yesterday there must have been 15-16 LW online, there was so much avrils in the air seeking that it was almost impossible to kill mobs.

But thats the game. And i like it as it is. 


I don't know about complete nerf - the ability (eventually) to have an unbreakable MWM and then max whatever is made can easily give you an advantage over even LW 5.

As an avril user I have the same problem with other avrils. And as an LW in general, I have about the same problem with someone having a Triple when I don't have one - they come up and mow down monsters often before I get a chance to even see said monster.

I'm not saying that the Triple should go. I'm just trying to put the LA vs LW thing into perspective. I think they are fairly balanced now, with what one can find vs what one starts out with. At different levels, on different maps, and on different waves even, the edge between the LA and LW shifts frequently, I'd say.

Of course, they always say "The Grass Is Always Greener ... "

I will agree that there are, usually, fewer LA's than Medics. Maybe it's because LA takes a bit of thought though; a bit of experience playing RPG in general before you undertake the challenge. I'll be starting my LA before I start my Medic, but I won't be doing either until I reach a happy point with my LW, and it will take a while before BotFodder is where I'd like him to be ... maybe somewhere around level 110.

But it's been said enough - leave well enough alone! So far, I think the only person that wants to change anything (right this second) is still Mystic.

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I think they are fairly balanced now
 


I wholeheartedly agree. And its very very hard to come up with balanced class.

Its also why i fear so much that things will change. Changing something will unbalance things and everyone knows what happens in those cases... *shivers thinking of the old Everquest Days*
Szlat

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KitFox wrote:

I think they are fairly balanced now
 

I wholeheartedly agree. And its very very hard to come up with balanced class.
 

I also agree.

In general terms, if a LW player has maxed out Vampire, then he gets 50% damage back as health. This means that a LW player can live for longer in the thick of the action. I think this is what Druid intended, with the LAs hanging back a bit. This leads to the following:
  • a LW player is more likely to pick up a triple than a LA player, as on average they will be closer to the dying monsters.
  • A triple provides more benefit to a LW than a LA, as it gives back extra health as well as the damage and xp. If Adrenaline surge and energy leech were not inhibited whilst an artifact is running, that would be different. As it is, LWs get more out of a triple.
  • LAs get more adrenaline, so can use a triple more.
  • If LAs are generally further away, they will need to use shocks and LGs more than flaks. So the base weapon damage is less for a LA than a LW. (I know LAs are more likely to have maxed weapons, but typically everyone can have a flak+5)

    So LAs having more adrenaline to use the triple balances out the additional benefit that LWs get from one. And LAs having a triple from the start balances that typically they will be further away from the monsters.

    Obviously this is in general terms, and I know lots of people will say 'but I dont play that way', but I think Druid has done a good job of balancing the two. LAs are not the same as LWs, and play differently. But the triple helps both of them.

    In fact, the class least helped by the triple is the medic. They don't have one from the start, they have less chance of picking one up than a LW, and don't get any extra benefit from one. But so be it.

    Whether or not the triple is too powerful is a separate question. And likewise the flak+5. Personally, I would like to see the other magic weapon types going up a % (with the exception of infinity), and then adding more monsters, especially of different, harder types. But that is off thread.
  • Mystic

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    The Classes Are not balanced... Loaded weapons players have a significant lead over other classes... Mind you i am loaded weapons..

    now,when a loaded weapons player gets a triple. activates it,and starts going crazy killing everything in his/her path it's overall going to affect the healers n loaded artifact players.not in a good way,./

    when i hear people speak of balance n team play.and yet i see huge diffrences in the scoring ranks.. means somethings not balanced...after just watching people for 16 waves .its the triple...

    Make the triple non useable to loaded weapon players..and i guarentee you, the classes will even out.. lw players dont need the triple ..the double works fine.and luckys spawn them more than u think and u spawn with all weapons anyway ..,
    if you cant win with all weapons no triple then u need to practice more..without the triple..or maybe lw isnt the class for you.. but being a lw player i know you dont need it.. so why not just prohibit lw players from even getting a triple ..?
    if yall want balance do something with the triple .make it so loaded weapons cant get one..leave the triple for the healers n loaded artifacts people ONLY, and leave the other weapons alone...its already been discused the flak 5 itself isnt an issue.. only the triple. think of it like this ..
    ive been around for a long time ... im not here to just get rid of the triple cause i dont like it ..which through some pm's seems the case.. im trying to make it so loaded artifacts and healers get the same chances to score as the loaded weapons players.. once again leave the triple for the la ,and healers and make it so lw players cant get it... and i bet you ..the point gaps and the balanceing will come closer together makeing it a more fun ride for all not just a select few...
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    [KitFox]

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    The Classes Are not balanced... Loaded weapons players have a significant lead over other classes... Mind you i am loaded weapons..

    now,when a loaded weapons player gets a triple. activates it,and starts going crazy killing everything in his/her path it's overall going to affect the healers n loaded artifact players.not in a good way,./

    when i hear people speak of balance n team play.and yet i see huge diffrences in the scoring ranks.. means somethings not balanced...after just watching people for 16 waves .its the triple...

    Make the triple non useable to loaded weapon players..and i guarentee you, the classes will even out.. lw players dont need the triple ..the double works fine.and luckys spawn them more than u think and u spawn with all weapons anyway ..,
    if you cant win with all weapons no triple then u need to practice more..without the triple..or maybe lw isnt the class for you.. but being a lw player i know you dont need it.. so why not just prohibit lw players from even getting a triple ..?
    if yall want balance do something with the triple .make it so loaded weapons cant get one..leave the triple for the healers n loaded artifacts people ONLY, and leave the other weapons alone...its already been discused the flak 5 itself isnt an issue.. only the triple. think of it like this ..
    ive been around for a long time ... im not here to just get rid of the triple cause i dont like it ..which through some pm's seems the case.. im trying to make it so loaded artifacts and healers get the same chances to score as the loaded weapons players.. once again leave the triple for the la ,and healers and make it so lw players cant get it... and i bet you ..the point gaps and the balanceing will come closer together makeing it a more fun ride for all not just a select few...
     


    Ahh, that is different then what i understood first Mystic. I always tough you wanted to remove Tripple all the way for everyone!

    I did think about it a lot. Especially with what Szlat said:

    a LW player is more likely to pick up a triple than a LA player, as on average they will be closer to the dying monsters.

    A triple provides more benefit to a LW than a LA, as it gives back extra health as well as the damage and xp. If Adrenaline surge and energy leech were not inhibited whilst an artifact is running, that would be different. As it is, LWs get more out of a triple.
     


    Convinced me that Tripple unbalance LW over LA and Medics.
    BotFodder

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    I don't wholly agree - at a given point, an LA player starts with a Triple, can magic a weapon (if it isn't already), and max a weapon. They also get adrenaline continually to power all of those. Granted it's stopped while they are using the Triple, but if an LW doesn't get a Triple, the LA player can run the map.

    If you need proof, look at Ooo, and even Kitfox to some extent. I'd bet that if Ooo and FodderFigure are on together (and I'd guess them to be similarly skilled players, though FodderFigure is clearly a higher level), Fodder won't be able to keep pace Ooo (or if Fodder does, it's probably by the benefit of his levels over Ooo) until Fodder finds a Triple. At that point, as a higher level player, you'd expect Fodder to do better.

    The additional benefit LWs get via vamp I think is offset somewhat by Adrenal Drip and similar stats that feed you adrenaline. And if you want to look at raw stats, you are more likely to have a higher max adrenaline than any LW (because really, we don't need it for regular use, and you even have a higher cap to max adrenaline).

    Give you guys a vamp weapon, and the playing field is *very* level between LA and LW.

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    I don't wish to enter this debate but I will add a couple of things to keep in mind.

    1) If you remove the triple damage or change it in any way, it will affect all 3 classes equally. (The fact that LA players get one at spawn is a different issue, Im speaking strictly in terms of how its balanced when its actually used.) Altering the Triple Damage artifact will not change the balanced between the LW and LA players in any way.

    2) I'll let you all debate this, but rather than remove it, how about just making it drain adrenaline faster?
    Kohan

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    Here's an idea that hasn't been mentioned that may work well. Make the triple damage identical to the double damage, except for the triple part. 30 seconds upon contact of triple damage. This would remove it from the Loaded Artifact dudes, which may tick them off a little, but it will also remove the whole break-after-a-while-when-deactivated issue and all that stuff. I dunno. Would people be complaining about it if it started out that way?

    A random note about the classes. Allow me to define balanced. Or more, give an example of how it would be measured. Balance means equality, that where one may be weak, another is strong, and vice versa. This would mean that in a random single player invasion game, every class would average out dying at the same wave. That's not what we have, and not what we want.
    Think of war. At least, stereotypical war. The front-line soldiers are much better than every other unit. Soldiers behind them may help resupply their ammunition, and there also may be medics around healing the wounded. That will give you an example of 'Balance is not the key.'
    It's teamwork. (pen names follow: mercenary, merchant ['sells' artifacts, etc], medic; respectively, weaponmaster, adrenalinemaster, monstermaster) The Mercenary relies on the Merchant to back him up, taking care of the slightly easier monsters. Both of those rely on Medics to keep them in good health, for if they are dead, the chances of survival are limited. Medics rely on the other two for the same reason.
    Do you see? Say 'pikapika' in any replying posts. Just to see if people listen to me. I also remind you of the first paragraph. Replies tend to direct towards the last thing read, as it is fresh in the replyer's mind.
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    What would be the point to being a LA player if you don't have the triple.

    I don't think this topic is really going anywhere.

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    Mystic

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    .it should be loaded weapons players who shouldnt get the triple ...
    take today for example.. i played a map .20 people on small map..some high lvl players made medics or la players. ect.. so i took that oportunity to use the triple.., guess what happend.

    i took the lead with 1500 points. second place 940 third place..530...and the whole time ..everyone asked.wheres all the creatures.. i replied i killed them all with my triple.. look at the points. and not a single response..
    thus proveing my point.. when high lvl LW players take hold of that triple..
    its over ..no one can keep up unless you have a triple yourself...

    also next map ..i didnt use a triple .same people ..and the point scale was so close i saw new names in the top slots..cause they werent limited to a certain number of points because of people useing triples competeing against eachother. .. and they had a chance to go and get those points..i mean the points were so close i wish i had a screen shot .to show yall it just looked right.. and thats how it should be ..
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    Mach10

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    I don't think the triple makes a huge difference. It's the quality of player, not the class restrictions. Look at 320, at level 15 (his new character) he is still outscoring most people. I just started a medic character and I was able to put up a score that was similar to my LW character. The triple doesn't vault me over anyone else, it simply makes my score better. I like getting hige score, but for now I care more about XP, and while the triple helps with that aspect, it isn't a godsend. I've gotten more multi kills etc. on titan waves with no triple than with it.
    Smokes

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    I think it is pretty well balanced, except the pinata of artifacts when a LA person dies. Trust me I go running when I see a triple drop. Other than that I don't get one every map. I would like to though but that would be an unfair advantage, once you are lucky enough to get one, you basically dominate especially if you have a high + weapon, it doesn't have to be the flak.
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    Wicked Sick!

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    I miss Ooo. Wish he played more. He's my kind of guy. We had a bit of a rivalry going and he worked like crazy to get better. In the end it was always neck and neck. I had to learn a few new tricks to keep up and pump up my adren considerably (at the time it was like 115 and I never needed more). He and Soupman took the LA class to the next level. He will make a believer out of anyone that doubts the ability of the LA class.

    I'll tell a little story and then sit on the sidelines for the rest of this thread. Ooo tried and tried to beat me for a good six weeks or so. He is somewhat competitive. I could tell he really wanted it but I never thought much about it because I always had a healthy margin, triple or no. At some point he started leveling up like crazy and learning the game. He would get close in our games but I'd pull ahead.

    Then one day we were playing grassyknoll (big, open map). He maxed a flak and handed it out and then shortly after I got a triple. flak 5 and triple? Time to clean house. Then came wave 6, after which, I hit F1 to see how many hundreds of points ahead I was (LOL).

    I was behind by 200 points. Made all the more humiliating by the fact that Ooo is in England and has like 140 ping. It was funny because I kept running out of adren and wondering why. It was because he was beating me out of every other kill with his shock 5 and triple and forcing me to run out my adren. By wave 14 the nails were in the coffin. He was 400 points ahead of me even though I was going full out.

    Outplayed, outskilled. Flat out KILLED.

    I don't think I'm the best LW player, no way. But I'm pretty good. I got plain stomped and it was no accident. He just stepped up. I give him all the props in the world for it.
     
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