Latest posts for the topic "+5's and triple dmg."

+5's and triple dmg.

Mystic — GMT

lately ive noticed people crazy for flak 5's. then begging for triples.. now im not one to complain much ..but its ridiculous to have 20 people with flak 5's and half of them with triples.. its like the mine layer was.. so im wondering if thiers a way to make plus 4's and 5's * non clonable.. or maybe the triple dmg not giveable.. :?

+5's and triple dmg.

super_sonic — GMT

Mystic wrote:

lately ive noticed people crazy for flak 5's. then begging for triples.. now im not one to complain much ..but its ridiculous to have 20 people with flak 5's and half of them with triples.. its like the mine layer was.. so im wondering if thiers a way to make plus 4's and 5's * non clonable.. or maybe the triple dmg not giveable.. :?

well since u want to get rid of bieng ble to drop the triple damage artifact why not get rid of the globe since thats very popular too or maybe the boots of flight? lol

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Okinesu — GMT

I thought you were kidding, but I just played a map, and EVERYONE was after it... mostly because Ooo was there. I've noticed that no one cares unless Ooo drops by, he's like the Flak +5 Santa.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Pyramidion — GMT

I'd agree with that it's almost like the minelayer was.... I think that limiting the 4's and 5's is a good idea, but I have a different idea about the triple... whenever i get a triple I always use it twice, once on wave 6 and again on wave 14, and maybe if I'm lucky on 16. I think that instead of draining faster(because It's pretty fast already) maybe it could have a chance of breaking like the mwm, or it just breaks after 1 to 2 uses? I'd rather see this than have it go faster... just my thoughts though :?

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

FodderFigure — GMT

I don't care what you do with the flak, but don't mess with my triple. Yes, I ask for it if I don't see one in the first 4 waves, and when I get one it gets used when I'm backed into a corner or on a titan wave. As for lasting continuously with a flack 5, you must be a terrific shot, because it lasts about 30 seconds when I have 250 adrenalin and a flak 5.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

ck — GMT

Flak +5 is way too strong compared to other magic weps. at any given point, more than half the players will want to have a flak +5 over infinity (ppl have resupply), reflecting, sturdy, poison, piercing or rage. I mean think of the vast difference between a flak +5 and a rage 6-7. I even think some LW players will take flak +5 over lower vampiric flaks because they have vampirisim and flak +5 deals hell of a damage (and we all know how rare vampiric weps are). now, i'm not saying flak +5 is unbalanced or anything, it's just that such a strong wep shouldn't be distributed. i do like the fact that the group makes it thru more rounds with a flak +5, but i would enjoy a balanced game more than an easy one (also, i do help as much as and whenever i can as a LA player so don't blame for sounding selfish, i'd just like a better game)

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

BotFodder — GMT

As much as I love the flak +5 (and link and mini 5), perhaps the % of extra damage could be adjusted to be more in line with the other weapons ... Most are 1 or 2% more damage per plus (with maybe one or two types of weapons doing +3% - energy and inifinity, I think). The exceptions, of course, are the "damage", vorpal, and rage weapons, which all do 10% extra per plus. Now from what I understand, all the other weapons were once higher in what they did per plus. Perhaps, (rather than any raising of monster level), the damage, rage, and vorpal extra damage per plus should be reduced to 5% (and with rage, the damage you take should be reduced to 5% as well). Or, if monster levels are upped, the other weapons should be increased in what they do per plus. However, if the damage weapons are made * weapons (whether the damage they might do is dropped or not), then there are a few * weapons (poison and maybe vampiric, most notably) that are * that should probably not be. I have noted that it's more of a thing now, wanting a flak 5; it's the best weapon that can be cloned (and admittedly a damn good weapon) and all it really takes is for someone to have any plus flak and a LA player on for the flak 5 factories to start producting. But that's also part of the teamwork thing that Dru is trying to foster, I'd say. It's possible that the chance of a triple popping out of a monster should be reduced (I saw two pop out of a bunny once - it was funny enough, but that I was using a vorpal shock would have been ultra funny if I had actually vorpaled the bunny). But personally I already consider myself lucky to find one, and it's usually only every three or four maps, and usually well into the map.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

v0rTeX — GMT

I personally dont feel the need to nerf the last good damage gun there is. I can understand Druids intentions with lowering the per + damage on all the other weapons considering they had powerful magic effects, but a vanilla + weapon has nothing other than damage. If he wants to make it a one drop fine, but don't mess with the damage values. *Actually the first point won't affect me at any rate because on our server we would continue to just use the regular damage weapons.* And this is not the same as the mine layer issue. The mine layer was an issue because it was powerful AND it was a fire and forget weapon. At least with the Flak you have to aim and hit the target. The only reason people are begging for the Flak +5 and Triple is because its the only thing they can do massive damage with. If they get changed and people start begging for the next most powerful combo are you all going to ask that that be changed as well? I realize the +5 weapons can be cloned but the triple cant so it seems plenty fair the way it is.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Spacey — GMT

Ya know...I find this thread sort of funny...up to a point. First, it is not just the flak+5. I know folks who go after link+5, rocket+5 (my favorite), etc. Secondly, I know it is not just Ooo which triggers this. I know when I am playing, lots of folks are asking if there is a +5 floating around out there. Yes, it does at times seem insane to think of 15 people all dealing 500+ pts for a well placed shot. But in reality, how many have the triple, the adren, have it running and can keep it running. After all, it will tend to be self limiting since if 15 folks were doing this, bugs would be in short supply, adren would start running out, etc. I also know that when I have handed out a bunch of +5 flaks, my scores tend to be lower as everyone pounds away at the bugs. But overall, survivability goes up as well. So in these cases, I just try to come up with a +5 RL, as that seems to be the only way I will manage to halfway keep up with the likes of Ooo, Chy, 320, and even you Mystic. Should the +5's be made non-copyable? Should the triple be made more rare and perhaps non-handable? I am of mixed feeling about both of these. Part of me thinks that perhaps making the triple arer for monsters to drop and making them more something of a LA player artifact (e.g. we don't drop them when we die) would be good. But then, it could also exacerbate a imballance I have been seeing growing. The same could also be said for making the +5's non-copyable. And who knows what this would do with team play. But I do think that making the triple drain faster would once again add to the disadvantages faced by the LA player, who is already burdened by the lack of regen and vamp, complicated by other factors. BTW...just to throw something back at folks which has been thrown at me a number of times... Myst, if you find it so non-challenging to have a Flak +5 and a triple, then why do it?? Or why don't you try playing a lower level player for a change, such as a LA class player.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

[KitFox] — GMT

Maybe add *, but worst thing to do would be to nerf the only damage weapon in the game. Has anyone tough that sometime theres only 5-6 poeple playing, and its impossible to win without good weapons?

BotFodder wrote:

It's possible that the chance of a triple popping out of a monster should be reduced.

Definatelly, i always see at least 4-5 tripples pop / Maps. Im pretty sure a good killer have a tripple by wave 5.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Hobo_Joe — GMT

Mystic wrote:

...and i dont play to get to the top score board ..ive been thier ..done that.. i play for the fun.. :wink: and yes it possible for low lvls to win maps without a flak 5 lol..

I don't play with the flak 5 much..I'll grab them sometimes but I think it's more of a challenge with a regular...Besides, if you have a regular, wouldn't that mean those titans chuckin' rocks at you would last longer, which means you get to shoot them more, which means more experience? I always thought so, could be wrong but I'm sure you can see how it COULD make sense.... as for getting to the top of the score board..I try but if I don't then oh well.... And it's true..you can win maps if your a low level..I've done it...once... /:)

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Mac_Knife — GMT

In my opinion, a flak of energy +3 with triple dmg is better than a flak +5 with triple. With a flak of energy +3 and a triple, on the titan waves, my adrenaline never dips below 80, and my adrenaline stat is at the basic 100. As for this problem of everybody wanting a flak +5 with triple? I havent noticed this, but that may be because i havent been playing much lately.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

TheDruidXpawX — GMT

Maybe the flak needs to not be allowed the +x damage modifier... I'll think on it.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

ck — GMT

Maybe the flak needs to not be allowed the +x damage modifier... I'll think on it.

i personally just suggest making +4 and +5 non-clonable, this way la players wouldn't max + flaks (they can give it back, but not give one to everyone) and if somebody is lucky enough to get a flak +3, then hey, they can pass that around, still a good wep and better damage than other magical weps damage-wise. this really is the simplest thing i can think of. i have a few (more radical) ideas about the triple, but i think the focus is flak at this point, triple seems to be doing fine for now. it will also force people to use a variety of weps, which i assume is a good thing... the question as someone already said I think, is what will be the next flak +5... flak of energy +3 is a probable candidate yet it probably wouldnt be as big of an issue as flak 5...

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Szlat — GMT

An alternative would be to add more flying monsters. Flaks are not as good against those, especially on open maps. Or up the monster difficulty so they dodge more. In both cases, it's the instant hit guns which fare best.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Szlat — GMT

I think if large open maps were chosen, then the flak wouldn't be in such demand. It would be the avrils or shocks people would want. So, since that to some extent is map dependent, it is perhaps relatively balanced. It just happens that small maps are frequently chosen. Is the real problem that the triple is too good? Like everyone else, I like a triple. But there have been numerous posts on other threads saying that triples are the only way to get really high scores, and how it's possible to keep a triple running through a titan way. That doesn't sound balanced to me. I agree with the others who say make it a double not a triple, or make it eat adrenaline faster, or make it occassionally break.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

320 — GMT

I'll throw my two cents in (cha-ching) Vortex wroted:

I personally dont feel the need to nerf the last good damage gun there is. I can understand Druids intentions with lowering the per + damage on all the other weapons considering they had powerful magic effects, but a vanilla + weapon has nothing other than damage. If he wants to make it a one drop fine, but don't mess with the damage values.

I agree. I stated in another thread other ways to balance out the overall situation but this is the simplest way to go. Make them non-clonable and the problem is solved. Another thing is that lately, people are playing better and with a greater emphasis on strategy. I think it's really cool. People are getting a better idea of play strategy and what tools are best for different scenarios. When you put them together, you have a more effective player. Some people are getting on the bus and others are not, and the gap is definately showing between the two. A lot of people, in particular, have jumped on the triple damage because now they understand how to use it. I think this is good. I don't think it should be a "secret" that only a few are able to capitalize on. But, it's important to recognize that while it isn't tremendously difficult to use the triple, it does take some skill and practice. So those extra kills people are getting are not "free". They had to work a bit. This is why this particular combination is not quite like the old mine layer. I also see a lot more people using the avril, as well. People hunt for piercing weps for later waves. Lower level players are planting their transloc more. etc. I point this out because "guns don't kill monsters, people kill monsters". :D With more people playing at a higher level, there will always be a gap and it shouldn't be blamed on weapons or the triple. It's a natural product of people just getting plain better. Give a no bonus flak to one of these players and they are still going to vastly outscore and outplay a joe average with a flak +5 and triple.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

320 — GMT

Mac_Knife wrote:

In my opinion, a flak of energy +3 with triple dmg is better than a flak +5 with triple. With a flak of energy +3 and a triple, on the titan waves, my adrenaline never dips below 80, and my adrenaline stat is at the basic 100. As for this problem of everybody wanting a flak +5 with triple? I havent noticed this, but that may be because i havent been playing much lately.

I agree, Flak Energy +2 or +3 is just as effective as a +5, with the only exception being when the server is extremely crowded and you get at most one shot before a big monster goes down.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

320 — GMT

Szlat wrote:

I think if large open maps were chosen, then the flak wouldn't be in such demand. It would be the avrils or shocks people would want. So, since that to some extent is map dependent, it is perhaps relatively balanced. It just happens that small maps are frequently chosen. Is the real problem that the triple is too good? Like everyone else, I like a triple. But there have been numerous posts on other threads saying that triples are the only way to get really high scores, and how it's possible to keep a triple running through a titan way. That doesn't sound balanced to me. I agree with the others who say make it a double not a triple, or make it eat adrenaline faster, or make it occassionally break.

Personally, I think a double that eats adren and a triple that runs on a timer would be better. But, if that were the case, we'd have nice camping problem on our hands. :-)

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

BotFodder — GMT

320 wrote:

Szlat wrote:

I agree with the others who say make it a double not a triple, or make it eat adrenaline faster, or make it occassionally break.
Personally, I think a double that eats adren and a triple that runs on a timer would be better. But, if that were the case, we'd have nice camping problem on our hands. :-)

If you're gonna choose to have the triple break, you'd have to make it a one use - no turning it off (which, if you haven't figured it out yet, is the trick everyone's talking about). Now maybe I'm just not as good as the others (or as good at it as others) but I actually do run out of adren even on titan waves. And to be honest, even though I get more adren from titans, I tend to use my triple more on Warlords, who I still find slightly more of a problem than queens or titans. Yes, titans do a lot of damage in one shot ... but the warlords tend to fire off quite a few rockets that tend to track me quite well. Put a couple of them together and I'm toast if I don't have some decent weapon(s) to deal with them with. Titans, on the other hand, don't move much, and the rocks (if you see them) tend to be more easily dodged, IMO. Someone mentioned (probably in another thread - this topic has been mobile) dropping the damage weapon + to 7%. Even 8% wouldn't be bad, and when you think about it, might be enough for someone to go with a +6 rage at 10%*+ over the +5 damage at 8%*+. I'm not so sure making them non-clonable is the answer. In another thread (as well as other discussions), Dru has indicated he wants to foster team play, particularly between classes. The fewer the number of clonable weapons you have, team play would suffer, IMHO. I can tell you from my days as a Mud Admin, balance isn't an easy thing, particularly when you introduce new, very wild variables to a game - the wildest of which can be the players themselves. People *usually* get better at the game as they progress. The question can become: When is it an issue of imbalance, and when is it an issue of just having a bunch of good players on? And do you adjust monster strength for those good players at the expense of new players (or even new characters)? I can also tell you that simple math, while occasionally the starting point, isn't always the solution. Cudos to Dru for not getting too burnt out. As far as the double/triple thing is concerned, I'm guessing the idea would be to make the things that spawn triples that time out (and probably give them a shorter time than the doubles are now) and make the doubles the things that pop out of monsters? That might be an option ... Dru, as much as I might get drawn and quartered for this suggestion, now that I think about it, the trick to making the triple rarer might not be so much to make it to where it doesn't appear as much, but make it to where when someone dies, it doesn't drop out of them (this suggestion goes doubly so for the Loaded Artifact people). I mean, the vultures that decend every time someone (particularly someone with LArt) dies ... the horror! Basically, I think that might be the option for *all* non-breakable, multi-use artifacts, for both regular and LA players. If they can remain throwable but not DoD (Drop on Death), that would make them the commodity that they probably should be, while not horribly impacting any team play they might foster (since you could still give it away). Oh - is there another than the Triple that fits that description (no-break multiuse)? So, to summarize:

Yeah, things could be changed. But not drastically! And probably not all at once, either.

Mystic may be making a mountain out of a mole hill - but everyone has an opinion.

so *that's* how the list code works in the forums!

I can also write a lot when I put my mind to it.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Fraggerman — GMT

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

320 — GMT

BotFodder wrote:

Dru, as much as I might get drawn and quartered for this suggestion, now that I think about it, the trick to making the triple rarer might not be so much to make it to where it doesn't appear as much, but make it to where when someone dies, it doesn't drop out of them (this suggestion goes doubly so for the Loaded Artifact people). I mean, the vultures that decend every time someone (particularly someone with LArt) dies ... the horror!

You have some really good points everyone should consider about game balance. It's not an easy thing to achieve. I also have to praise Druid in this regard. I think making the triple more rare and/or making it no-drop would cause tremendous balance issues. The triple is a really major pivot point between the LA and LW classes. I know this is a team server and points aren't supposed to matter, etc. However, I think teamwork is difficult to achieve unless people feel their class is being treated fairly and balanced with the other classes. Although it's not a particularly popular notion, the LA and LW classes are very well-balanced at present when played at the more advanced levels. Yes, it is easier to "stay alive" with the LW class, but most high-level players have goals beyond just surviving the waves. If anyone just wants to "stay alive" their choice is clear: LW. But if you want to push yourself, give a good showing on the scoreboard or explore the depth of strategy and tactics the game has to offer, the choice is more complicated. Rest assured, however, that if you take either class to their extremes, you will be able to stay competitive. Seeing the top LA and LW players trade top spots on the scoreboard as the rounds progress is very cool and I think the entire DC community benefits from the healthy competition in the form of deeper gameplay and strategy. I'm just saying that regulation of the triple for the sake of the overall play experience introduces the distinct possibility of unbalancing the classes.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Fro13 — GMT

I don't think it makes as big as a difference as you think. Every 3 shots(exactly) it takes to kill a monster, it would take 2 w/ a a +5(exacly). 3:2 ratio. If it takes less than that it really doesn't make that big of a difference becuase you going to kill it in 1-2 shots anyway. It makes more of a difference whether you actually hit it and how far the next monster is to you. Lets say somthing takes exactly 3 shots to kill w/ a regular weapon. Thats 2 shots w/ a +5. w/ a triple thats 1 shot each. 9 shots w/ a regular would take 6 shots with a +5, but it 3 to 2 with a triple. So, your saving 3 shots normally(alot, probaly where people see the problem), but your only saving one shot with the triple. 20 shots w/ a regular flak, 14 shots with a +5. w/ a triple it's 7 to 5. So, the more shots it takes, the bigger the difference there is, but if it takes that many shots, you're either a low level player or a high level player fighting high level monsters. By that time, it would be much better to have a piercing weapon than a +5. So, +5 are probably helping the people w/ low attack bonus more than anybody else. By modifying it, your only hurting the little guy. I (and others) will still be able be score big points whether there are +5 flaks/triples or not. I do it all the time. :wink: I do see where the problem seems to be though, in that 9 shot range. That is usually about how much a titan or a queen takes to kill. So, it does help there, but if you have a triple your only saving 1 shot. just my 2 cents

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

BotFodder — GMT

320 wrote:

I think making the triple more rare and/or making it no-drop would cause tremendous balance issues. The triple is a really major pivot point between the LA and LW classes.

You know, thinking about it, you're right - without the number of triples in the game that there are now, any LAdren player that has the LArt required to get one automatically has a huge advantage over a similarly armed LW player. Ignore what I said about making it rare in previous posts; there's very little that an LW person gets that would make up for not having a triple when a LA player has them. Vamp and Regen? Hmmm ... maybe if you have a lot of it. But the LA player will finish off the monster faster than you will - you'll just have more of a chance to survive being pounded on in the process ... but then LAd characters also have the opportunity to get Adrenal Drip and Adrenal Surge - neither of which are available to LW and both of which would greatly aid in an LAd character's use of the triple. Combined with their ability at LArt 2 to max a magic weapon ... even if it starts out negative ... See - this is a balance thing. Gave me a headache when I actively admined the mud I host. Now, it's someone else's problem (sorry Dru).

Fro13 wrote:

9 shots w/ a regular would take 6 shots with a +5, but it 3 to 2 with a triple. So, your saving 3 shots normally(alot, probaly where people see the problem), but your only saving one shot with the triple.

It took me a bit to figure out what you were trying to say here - I'll see if I can stated it more plainly - given the same monster:

9 shots with a regular flak comes to 3 shots with a triple

6 shots with a flak 5 comes to 2 shots with a triple So the issue isn't so much the flak 5 with the triple as it is the triple, period. But then we get into the whole LAd vs LW balance thing that is likely to keep Dru up nights. Someone once suggested that an LAd character might have more issues at lower levels than an LW char. I can't say either way really ... I haven't played anything other than LW yet. I can tell you it took me some banking of points starting at level 44 to get LW 3-5 at 55 (and due to a mysterious mouse flub, 56 for LW 5, actually), as well as some creative stat management to get either Regen or Vamp, and a LAd can get Lart right off the bat (according to the write up - however, some Artifacts they get require significantly more than 100 adren to use, so they have to put points in that) ... and we're back into figuring out balance again. LAds get the toys to take the monsters out, but LWs tend to be the fodder (no pun on my or FodderFigure's names intended, really) that get up in the monster's face. We use Regen and Vamp to stay alive while keeping the monster busy, allowing everyone else to pound on it from a safer position. At least that's the theory, I guess. What I think I can say is that LAds appear to be very kick-ass at higher levels, when they have LArt with the triple and probably AD and AS. As for my success with my LW char ... well, at 59 I only have vamp 3, regen 2, and LW 5 ... and I usually ditch like 5 weapons when I spawn. I'm never in first place at the end, usually 3rd or below, and IIRC, second only once. And I usually die at least twice if not 3 times between levels 13 through 16, even with Flak 5/Triple. Ghost might change that, but I won't be seeing level 1 of ghost until 72, according to my currently calculations (yes, I have a 23 level plan written out already - by 84, I should have Ghost 3 and Denial 2 - don't even get me started about not being able to get D3, as you LAds can). Dunno what I'm trying to say here - except that really I guess I agree with 320 - now, the high level LAds appear to be competative with the LWs. And thinking about it, making the triple rarer is only likely to hurt the LWs and Medics (I haven't forgotten about you guys yet - just don't think any of you are high enough level right now to be considered "high level" - besides, it no longer becomes an issue of "score vs score" but more of "xp rate vs xp rate" when you start talking about MM). And the damage differential between the flak and the flak 5 - perhaps it's not the problem people think it is. Summary for this post:

Again, someone might be making something out of nothing.

At this very moment, I don't want to see the triple be more rare than it is now, as it is the great equalizer between LAs and LWs. It was a snap idea and under further review, probably not a very good one. Sorry - just threw it out there. It was right of you to step on it.

I wouldn't gripe too much if the %/+ on damage weapons were reduced by a % point or two, all other things being equal. But I also think in the grand scheme of things, it wouldn't make a humongous difference, so I don't really see a reason to do it.

I also don't want to see +4 or +5 damage weapons be non-clonable. Again, as per Fro13's post, that's not really where the great issue lies, if you think it through. And I still think it would hurt team spirit, if nothing else.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Okinesu — GMT

I think using a flak +5 and a triple is just as cheap as using anything else, Mys... I don't think it's really relevant here. As with any other weapon, the novelty will die down eventually or people will get tired of using a hyper-powerful weapon, or Dru might even make it less powerful so it won't even be a problem anymore. Things always work out in the end. As it was with spider mines, so shall it be with flak +5s and triples. It's just a flak cannon, after all.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Mach10 — GMT

I don't think the 5's and triple are a big issue. Even if almost every person in the server has one, which does happen on occasion, coupled with a few having triples, generally speaking the best players are still the ones left on the latter waves. Even without the triple or a 5 they are still the ones left fighting. Although, the triple is the one I see as more "unfair" as it allows some to mow down monsters with 2-3 shots while others are left running in circles. Although, in later waves I'm just happy to get a few XP and to stay alive. As others have said people are just getting better, and even with a full server I haven't seen a massive change in the difficulty/ease of maps. We are still relying on the better players to bail us out on the harder waves. The 5's simply allow lower level players to be more competitive and garner more XP. I wouldn't be against making the 5's non-clonable and/or triples more rare (I'd prefer the latter), but I would be completely against reducing the damage of any weapons. I don't think I was playing when the other weapons were more powerful, but the main reason I use 5's is the damage. I like the magic weapons, but they simply aren't powerful enough in most cases. I like the protection, but if the damge bonus was say 2-3% I'd be willing to sacrifice the extra damage bonus of a 5 for the protection bonus. The same is true for guns like the lucky, sturdy, etc. Furthermore, guns like the lucky father teamplay, as shields and ammo are provided for others. Even though I'm LW and have vampirism I also like using vamp guns as it gives you that much more health back (I'm hoping the vamp it gives compounds any you have bought). But, I prefer the 5 on 15 of 16 waves.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

ck — GMT

i just had a revelation and i think i'll change my opinion in the future but right now it sounds like the perfect solution (although the coding might be harder than i think) keep everything the same - dead LA players drop every item, monsters drop at the same rate - but make the DROPS double damage. so the LA player will always have the triple but he will drop a double damage - just like the monsters - for the other two classes. Thus, the LA player has something `special` to a degree and LW players will pick a strong damage modifier after the dead. And it won't make a lot of difference too; what you would normally kill in 4 triple damage shots, you would kill in 6 DD shots. and i know that high level LA players have high scores but if there's one thing more dangerous than a high lvl LA with TD, it's a high lvl LW with a TD and most have the TD by the last waves. for this to make sense of course, the adrenalins/second should be kept the same, giving a slight (yet not huge) advantege to LA. I thought about monsters still dropping triple damage, but i see 2-3 triple damages pop out of monsters every map and i don't do whole lot of killing and then of course there are low lvl not-so-talented LA players who give them away after lvl 12 (like moi). so i still feel like DD instead of TD for the other two classes make sense... let's see how i feel about this in 1 hour...

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Chyster — GMT

From the noob perspective: Been there. I can guarantee that if I were a noob covered hip deep in monsters, and someone showed up chunkin ground up beer cans at them critters with a purple flack cannon of what ever to save my hide, I'd be grateful. Also, as a noob, I would like it very much if someone shared an equalizer that gave me a chance to stay alive and make some points. From the LW perspective: Played it. When you come in, your stuck with what you got, period. Unless you hear about the boosted weapon across the map and go get it - or ask a LA to max one for you. By making these weapons non-cloneable, your stopping those in YOUR class from helping YOU, not to mention the LA player who is burning thousands of points in adrenalin to contribute to the team. From the LA perspective: Playing it. I almost never ever used a trip with a maxed vanilla flack. I love the lightening gun and would turn it into a Vorpal 10. I would play with that purpose only in mind. The LG kills nali with one shot and most skaarj die with one shot from a +10 vorpal LG. I don't know if it is the changes to code or not but lately the vorpals (both LG and SR) are rare as hens teeth and the LG seems to do a whole lot less damage and give fewer points, both on the board and in experience. So I have had to change strategy. My fave combo is the flack +5 with the trip not by choice, but by necessity. It is the only way I can stay alive without the vampirism ability. LW's can take the punishment, I have to deal out the damage and the more folks doing damage, the longer I can stay away from the "face down in the mud" syndrome. From the Healers perspective: Haven't played it yet. However, I can bear witness to the fact that I have seen healers finish waves, alone, because someone shared a good weapon with them. Saw it myself. The nutshell: I don't think any change is necessary. I look at it this way, when the final waves hit, and I am one of the few survivors, that flack +5 w/ the trip running up the damage makes very little difference. I can barely dent a titan or queen with it, but the more peepz making dents, the better off we all will be. Solution: Stop voting for those dang death match maps. Spread the monsters out on a BR or ONS map so the flack becomes the up close weapon of choice it was meant to be. It isn't the code man, its the maps everyone seems hung up on playing.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

320 — GMT

Mystic wrote:

and 320 .uhm ..takeing the most powerful weapon in the game and tripling its dmg is not a strategy...its lack of strategy .... :wink:

Right. Well, I'm not gonna go down this road with ya bro.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Spacey — GMT

Chyster wrote:

From the noob perspective: Been there. I can guarantee that if I were a noob covered hip deep in monsters, and someone showed up chunkin ground up beer cans at them critters with a purple flack cannon of what ever to save my hide, I'd be grateful. Also, as a noob, I would like it very much if someone shared an equalizer that gave me a chance to stay alive and make some points. From the LW perspective: Played it. When you come in, your stuck with what you got, period. Unless you hear about the boosted weapon across the map and go get it - or ask a LA to max one for you. By making these weapons non-cloneable, your stopping those in YOUR class from helping YOU, not to mention the LA player who is burning thousands of points in adrenalin to contribute to the team. From the LA perspective: Playing it. I almost never ever used a trip with a maxed vanilla flack. I love the lightening gun and would turn it into a Vorpal 10. I would play with that purpose only in mind. The LG kills nali with one shot and most skaarj die with one shot from a +10 vorpal LG. I don't know if it is the changes to code or not but lately the vorpals (both LG and SR) are rare as hens teeth and the LG seems to do a whole lot less damage and give fewer points, both on the board and in experience. So I have had to change strategy. My fave combo is the flack +5 with the trip not by choice, but by necessity. It is the only way I can stay alive without the vampirism ability. LW's can take the punishment, I have to deal out the damage and the more folks doing damage, the longer I can stay away from the "face down in the mud" syndrome. From the Healers perspective: Haven't played it yet. However, I can bear witness to the fact that I have seen healers finish waves, alone, because someone shared a good weapon with them. Saw it myself. The nutshell: I don't think any change is necessary. I look at it this way, when the final waves hit, and I am one of the few survivors, that flack +5 w/ the trip running up the damage makes very little difference. I can barely dent a titan or queen with it, but the more peepz making dents, the better off we all will be. Solution: Stop voting for those dang death match maps. Spread the monsters out on a BR or ONS map so the flack becomes the up close weapon of choice it was meant to be. It isn't the code man, its the maps everyone seems hung up on playing.

I agreee 1M%!! Well... less one or two percent. I don't think it is so much the DM maps themselves, but rather the specific maps. Too many of these maps which are voted in are too small, regardless of whether we are talking DM or BR maps. With 20 players, maps like Helmzdeep are probably getting a bit small, and maps like SpaceNoxx and the one Anubis map (with the water in the middle) are too small. As for the stupid 1-on-1 maps...SHEESH! That is one reason why I tend to try to vote maps like HallOfGiants, BoomBoom and others in. Not saying that we should be playing the maps like Red, or VINV maps, but we should be playing larger maps than we normally do. BTW... I know about the rare vorps and vamps. Right now, I am probably averaging 20-30K adren to get just one of these lovelys.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Chyster — GMT

Spacey wrote:

BTW... I know about the rare vorps and vamps. Right now, I am probably averaging 20-30K adren to get just one of these lovelys.

Haven't been on as frequently as I used to, work and school calls. And i have not tracked it by the adren count, but I can tell ya its been a week or so since I had one.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Smokes — GMT

Spacey wrote:

Not saying that we should be playing the maps like Red, or VINV maps, but we should be playing larger maps than we normally do.

Speaking of VINV maps, has anyone ever tried these maps besides myself? Looks interesting to anyone? http://www.ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=413820 Warning! Looks like the guys threw them together, and it does write over some exiting files.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Okinesu — GMT

Forgot this post, I'm dumb

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Ducatisto — GMT

Smokes wrote:

Spacey wrote:

Not saying that we should be playing the maps like Red, or VINV maps, but we should be playing larger maps than we normally do.
Speaking of VINV maps, has anyone ever tried these maps besides myself? Looks interesting to anyone? http://www.ina-community.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=413820 Warning! Looks like the guys threw them together, and it does write over some exiting files.

Um that was me "throwing the maps together"! Really, all that was done was to add more random spawn points and to locate weapons and ammo pick-ups more evenly around the maps so as to enable players spawning away from cores or nodes. Apart from the maps all the other files were left intact with only maybe one custom texture file. I have to admit they are not really up to scratch but I have adapted quite a few more for use on Gameservers Vehicle Invasion server (am the admin) and all are available if requested. Ok, sorry for getting off subject there. Some may recognise me as a more recent newcomer to your server (and a great one it is) and my angle on this subject is why advertise the actual strength of the weapon? Ok, once gotten why not just say Flak+ and leave the guessing to the player, that way there will be no (or little) hassling for that weapon. It MAY be a +5 but it could also only be a +1 so the gamble would be is it or isnt it. A more experienced player might recognise it doing that little more damage but generally most wont. Is this a bit off the mark? Duca (Dr. in the making!)

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Kohan — GMT

Oh that is an AWESOME idea! I love it! 110% support! Seriously! Here I am trying to figure out a way to have weapons be rationed and you just hand it out... Awesome, dude. Oh man... Okay, all weapons should have no label, but ones with special effects will be shinier than not. By identifying once (artifact), you see the bonus type (the shader also is visible). By identifying again, you see the actual bonus amount. This will keep people from identifying normal weapons, and perhaps have people experiment with the weapon to see its effects, for lack of an identifier. Anyone like this idea? Another random idea is to change the potency of shaders and other effects based on the strength of the effect. For example, a Vorpal +6 shader would be much less substantial than a +10. Such will also go for transparency; a weak vampiric weapon will be only slightly transparent, and slightly red, et cetera. I leave you with one sentence to remind you of each topic; Awesome, Ducatisto, Identifying weapons, shader/trasparency potency.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Shadow-X — GMT

I have played 4 of them maps one of them is very small

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

v0rTeX — GMT

The idea of not knowing what the modifier your gun holds is interesting. But it wont do much aside from ticking off Adrenaline Masters who will no doubt use the max modifier artifact on every weapon to be sure its the highest. Plus all the Weapon Masters will just start asking for all weapons maxed instead of just the ones that are low modifiers.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Ducatisto — GMT

v0rTeX wrote:

The idea of not knowing what the modifier your gun holds is interesting. But it wont do much aside from ticking off Adrenaline Masters who will no doubt use the max modifier artifact on every weapon to be sure its the highest. Plus all the Weapon Masters will just start asking for all weapons maxed instead of just the ones that are low modifiers.

v0rTeX, I was aware of that but I was thinking of a simple general solution, any Joe or Jenny joining would be in the dark about how strong the weapon was. If you start looking at how to stop it you would have to take away all the modifiers and just have stock vanilla weapons and delete the Adrenaline Master so as to stop any maxing out and that would take away the whole perspective of what this RPG is all about. Ok, my take on RPG. In a majority of games you have to do it all yourself, you mould your character and guide it to its goal. Here in Druids I see it as a little more relaxed, yes you do have to choose yourself in which direction you go but it it is more of a "team" RPG where everyone is helping each other to defeat the oncoming masses. The only way you are going to stop the trend of maxxing out others weapons is to make them undroppable until death. I personally love this RPG the way it is because it promotes gamesmanship and team spirit, as long as no cheating or exploiting goes on, I stand by my simple solution as we can only go so far before we end up back where we started with a simple RPG mod and that is not where Dru was aiming to go (I assume :wink: )

Shadow-X wrote:

have played 4 of them maps one of them is very small

Probably Icybo, but they are all ONS maps. You will find they do cross the spectrum regarding size :wink: Duca

+5's and triple dmg.

fujoubou — GMT

My 2¢... LW = choice of weapons LA = Makes there weapons Flak +5 = deadly close combat. flak +3 energy = many many possibilities TRiple = verrry good artifact but that gives adventage to hight lv player and to any LA player. Solution i would bring: make the flak 5 not clonable once you use a triple artifact. reduce the capability of the weapon by -1. ex: use a flak 5 that can't be clone and a triple will result at the end to a flak 4 that can't be cloned and you keep the triple dmg artifact. that would bring the bug: starts the triple with a assault rifle or end it with a assault rifle so that weapon get's the bonus reduction. Solution to the bug: any weapon you will use that interact with the triple dmg artifact will get the minus dmg bonus.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

[KitFox] — GMT

make the flak 5 not clonable once you use a triple artifact. reduce the capability of the weapon by -1.

Too complicated for nothing. Why even allow +5 on flak then? Why do a tripple when its changed to a "half tripple" if you have a +5 and zillions of other reasons. 2 solutions: 1) +4 and +5 non clonable. 2) Tripple breaks when you stop it. Its simple..

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

crabman2 — GMT

Leave these things alone. Eventually you guys will become high level players, and then you'll be complaining that the "high score" table was populated by players who used the flak 5 and triple and you'll :

want them to rescore in order to prove themselves.

want their exp reduced

complain because flak 4s are too powerfull

complain because flak 3s are too powerfull

complain because flak 2s are too powerfull

complain because flak 1s are too powerfull

complain because any weapon is too powerfull

complain because people are giving away stared weapons to other high level players

complain because vanilla weapons are being shared

complain because players weapon damage is too high

complain because you started on level 5 of a map while others started on level 1 and you want a map to start over whenever a new player enters or you want x number of points for every level you missed I could go on and on, but I think we should just play the game, because this thread is played out. Now back to my caraf of coffee.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

320 — GMT

crabman2 wrote:

Leave these things alone. Eventually you guys will become high level players, and then you'll be complaining that the "high score" table was populated by players who used the flak 5 and triple and you'll :
want them to rescore in order to prove themselves.
want their exp reduced
complain because flak 4s are too powerfull
complain because flak 3s are too powerfull
complain because flak 2s are too powerfull
complain because flak 1s are too powerfull
complain because any weapon is too powerfull
complain because people are giving away stared weapons to other high level players
complain because vanilla weapons are being shared
complain because players weapon damage is too high
complain because you started on level 5 of a map while others started on level 1 and you want a map to start over whenever a new player enters or you want x number of points for every level you missed I could go on and on, but I think we should just play the game, because this thread is played out. Now back to my caraf of coffee.

WISDOM. ^:)^ What's interesting to me is a few months back we still had "super weapons" like +6 Freezing and +6 Vamp that were much more powerful than their current incarnations. These weapons were almost exclusively traded around the high-level players. No one complained. A flak 5, at that time, was considered strictly "decent". NO ONE went out of their way to hand one out because nobody wanted one. In addition, at that time, I believe the monsters were easier to kill. In the last few months, the level of player knowledge has improved a lot and people just plain play harder and faster. People are more aware of the good weapon combinations and understand how to use the artifacts. Now that people are using this knowledge to great effect, certain weapons are supposedly "crutches."

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

emetakleze — GMT

crabman2 wrote:

I think we should just play the game Now back to my caraf of coffee.

Sage advice, and well put. Make it so...

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

[KitFox] — GMT

I think we should just play the game

Completelly agree on that one. BTW im not complaining, i just hope nothing will change, because right now this server is incredibly fun.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Kohan — GMT

My take on things is why are people complaining about +5 Flaks? If they're complaning about those, why not complain about +5 Rocket Launchers, or +5 Shock Rifles? If it's more powerful than all the other weapons at +5, wouldn't it be more powerful than all the other weapons at +0? Yet no one is complaining about +0's. It's how the game was made, people. I restate: If it's cheaper than others at +5, it's cheaper than others at +0. Balance shall remain until the Malcolm Effect comes into play.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Mystic — GMT

the flak 5,. requires no aiming realy..except mosqitos.. its a spread shot,that bounces off walls.. as the other weapons actualy require some aim. the flak itself isnt bad... im actualy more concerned about this triple.. if thier was a way to make it break once activated but drain your adrenalin.So you couldnt turn it off and on.. that would be a good fix... and even out the classes, getting rid of the triple is the best solution thoe.. i mean cmon ..you dont realy need it lol. thiers many doubles and u can spawn them with lucky's. :wink:

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

[KitFox] — GMT

the flak 5,. requires no aiming realy

Lol i hear that argument since UT99. A full blast flak requires as good aiming as sniper. Unless you are satisfied with that single shell that will do 5 damage....

if thier was a way to make it break once activated but drain your adrenalin.So you couldnt turn it off and on.. that would be a good fix...

Completelly disagree on this. Make it break once deactivated/out of adren maybe. So at least people could use it at least once.

getting rid of the triple is the best solution thoe..

Get rid of my Tripple as a LA, And you better remove Super Weapon, Mines and Avril from LW.

i mean cmon ..you dont realy need it lol. thiers many doubles and u can spawn them with lucky's.

Yes i need tripple. As much as LW needs the fore mentionned weapons. Mystic it looks like youre asking for a LA nerf of some sort, the class that is the hardest to play. I dont understand. If theres 10 player on the server, there is like one LA for 7 LW and 2 medics on average. Its not for nothing. You dont hear us whine on Avril... yesterday there must have been 15-16 LW online, there was so much avrils in the air seeking that it was almost impossible to kill mobs. But thats the game. And i like it as it is. Edit: I removed complete. Always exagerate. sorry :)

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

BotFodder — GMT

KitFox wrote:

Mystic wrote:

the flak 5,. requires no aiming realy
Lol i hear that argument since UT99. A full blast flak requires as good aiming as sniper. Unless you are satisfied with that single shell that will it with 5 damage....

I agree with Kit here. And when you stop and think about it, on wave 16, on an open map, one-on-one with a monster (most notably queens and warlords), the Flak can become quite useless - even with good aim.

KitFox wrote:

Mystic wrote:

if thier was a way to make it break once activated but drain your adrenalin.So you couldnt turn it off and on.. that would be a good fix...
Completelly disagree on this. Make it break once deactivated/out of adren maybe. So at least people could use it at least once.

Disagree with both - as at LA 3, you get unbreakable artifacts, and this limitation goes away to a large extent. Maybe that's the reward for spending all the points, but I like things fine enough the way they are.

KitFox wrote:

Mystic wrote:

getting rid of the triple is the best solution thoe..
Get rid of my Tripple as a LA, And you better remove Super Weapon, Mines and Avril from LW.

While not advocating removal of the triple, I disagree with your parallel. The triple is useful no matter the map, and even on open maps, the slower fire rate of the Avril (In My Experience So Far, as my WS is not maxed yet), and the fact that it only locks on to about half of the monsters (admittedly all of the big ones), makes it only decent, and only good for distance shots. On tight maps, only the mine layer is the more useful of the LW weapons you pick on, and I still think it's usefulness, while not completely useless, is often overrated. I think right now that things are fairly balanced both ways, though at any level (assuming LW 5 and LA 3 in competition), I think an LA will usually outpace an LW (especially in later waves) if the LW hasn't stumbled upon a triple. I haven't done the math yet, but give one of you guys LW 3 with Ad. Drip and 150 Adren, and you're doing pretty good ... you get to magic even normal weapons and then max them. I'd be curious as to how an LA would do with a Vamp Flak maxed out and the Triple. Probably better than an LW without a Triple, to be sure. Our ability to buy Vamp and Regen don't really match up with your always having a Triple, I think.

KitFox wrote:

Mystic wrote:

i mean cmon ..you dont realy need it lol. thiers many doubles and u can spawn them with lucky's.
Yes i need tripple. As much as LW needs the fore mentionned weapons.

Yes well I don't see doubles spawn with lucky weapons nearly as much as everything else (vials and pills, particularly) seem to spawn. And I have to be wielding said lucky weapon at the time. To be honest, I don't have a great need for my mine layer (although I use it when I think of it), my avril (which I make use of on some later waves, on open maps, and occasionally). And as for super weapons, yes, they are nice to start out with - but much like the LW's ability to eventually stumble across a Triple, there are usually super weapon spawn points on maps where a super weapon would be very useful.

KitFox wrote:

Mystic it looks like youre asking for a complete LA nerf of some sort, the class that is the hardest to play. I dont understand. If theres 10 player on the server, there is like one LA for 7 LW and 2 medics on average. Its not for nothing. You dont hear us whine on Avril... yesterday there must have been 15-16 LW online, there was so much avrils in the air seeking that it was almost impossible to kill mobs. But thats the game. And i like it as it is.

I don't know about complete nerf - the ability (eventually) to have an unbreakable MWM and then max whatever is made can easily give you an advantage over even LW 5. As an avril user I have the same problem with other avrils. And as an LW in general, I have about the same problem with someone having a Triple when I don't have one - they come up and mow down monsters often before I get a chance to even see said monster. I'm not saying that the Triple should go. I'm just trying to put the LA vs LW thing into perspective. I think they are fairly balanced now, with what one can find vs what one starts out with. At different levels, on different maps, and on different waves even, the edge between the LA and LW shifts frequently, I'd say. Of course, they always say "The Grass Is Always Greener ... " I will agree that there are, usually, fewer LA's than Medics. Maybe it's because LA takes a bit of thought though; a bit of experience playing RPG in general before you undertake the challenge. I'll be starting my LA before I start my Medic, but I won't be doing either until I reach a happy point with my LW, and it will take a while before BotFodder is where I'd like him to be ... maybe somewhere around level 110. ;) But it's been said enough - leave well enough alone! So far, I think the only person that wants to change anything (right this second) is still Mystic.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

[KitFox] — GMT

I think they are fairly balanced now

I wholeheartedly agree. And its very very hard to come up with balanced class. Its also why i fear so much that things will change. Changing something will unbalance things and everyone knows what happens in those cases... *shivers thinking of the old Everquest Days*

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Szlat — GMT

KitFox wrote:

I think they are fairly balanced now
I wholeheartedly agree. And its very very hard to come up with balanced class.

I also agree. In general terms, if a LW player has maxed out Vampire, then he gets 50% damage back as health. This means that a LW player can live for longer in the thick of the action. I think this is what Druid intended, with the LAs hanging back a bit. This leads to the following:

a LW player is more likely to pick up a triple than a LA player, as on average they will be closer to the dying monsters.

A triple provides more benefit to a LW than a LA, as it gives back extra health as well as the damage and xp. If Adrenaline surge and energy leech were not inhibited whilst an artifact is running, that would be different. As it is, LWs get more out of a triple.

LAs get more adrenaline, so can use a triple more.

If LAs are generally further away, they will need to use shocks and LGs more than flaks. So the base weapon damage is less for a LA than a LW. (I know LAs are more likely to have maxed weapons, but typically everyone can have a flak+5) So LAs having more adrenaline to use the triple balances out the additional benefit that LWs get from one. And LAs having a triple from the start balances that typically they will be further away from the monsters. Obviously this is in general terms, and I know lots of people will say 'but I dont play that way', but I think Druid has done a good job of balancing the two. LAs are not the same as LWs, and play differently. But the triple helps both of them. In fact, the class least helped by the triple is the medic. They don't have one from the start, they have less chance of picking one up than a LW, and don't get any extra benefit from one. But so be it. Whether or not the triple is too powerful is a separate question. And likewise the flak+5. Personally, I would like to see the other magic weapon types going up a % (with the exception of infinity), and then adding more monsters, especially of different, harder types. But that is off thread.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Mystic — GMT

The Classes Are not balanced... Loaded weapons players have a significant lead over other classes... Mind you i am loaded weapons.. now,when a loaded weapons player gets a triple. activates it,and starts going crazy killing everything in his/her path it's overall going to affect the healers n loaded artifact players.not in a good way,./ when i hear people speak of balance n team play.and yet i see huge diffrences in the scoring ranks.. means somethings not balanced...after just watching people for 16 waves .its the triple... Make the triple non useable to loaded weapon players..and i guarentee you, the classes will even out.. lw players dont need the triple ..the double works fine.and luckys spawn them more than u think and u spawn with all weapons anyway .., if you cant win with all weapons no triple then u need to practice more..without the triple..or maybe lw isnt the class for you.. but being a lw player i know you dont need it.. so why not just prohibit lw players from even getting a triple ..? if yall want balance do something with the triple .make it so loaded weapons cant get one..leave the triple for the healers n loaded artifacts people ONLY, and leave the other weapons alone...its already been discused the flak 5 itself isnt an issue.. only the triple. think of it like this .. ive been around for a long time ... im not here to just get rid of the triple cause i dont like it ..which through some pm's seems the case.. im trying to make it so loaded artifacts and healers get the same chances to score as the loaded weapons players.. once again leave the triple for the la ,and healers and make it so lw players cant get it... and i bet you ..the point gaps and the balanceing will come closer together makeing it a more fun ride for all not just a select few... :)

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

[KitFox] — GMT

The Classes Are not balanced... Loaded weapons players have a significant lead over other classes... Mind you i am loaded weapons.. now,when a loaded weapons player gets a triple. activates it,and starts going crazy killing everything in his/her path it's overall going to affect the healers n loaded artifact players.not in a good way,./ when i hear people speak of balance n team play.and yet i see huge diffrences in the scoring ranks.. means somethings not balanced...after just watching people for 16 waves .its the triple... Make the triple non useable to loaded weapon players..and i guarentee you, the classes will even out.. lw players dont need the triple ..the double works fine.and luckys spawn them more than u think and u spawn with all weapons anyway .., if you cant win with all weapons no triple then u need to practice more..without the triple..or maybe lw isnt the class for you.. but being a lw player i know you dont need it.. so why not just prohibit lw players from even getting a triple ..? if yall want balance do something with the triple .make it so loaded weapons cant get one..leave the triple for the healers n loaded artifacts people ONLY, and leave the other weapons alone...its already been discused the flak 5 itself isnt an issue.. only the triple. think of it like this .. ive been around for a long time ... im not here to just get rid of the triple cause i dont like it ..which through some pm's seems the case.. im trying to make it so loaded artifacts and healers get the same chances to score as the loaded weapons players.. once again leave the triple for the la ,and healers and make it so lw players cant get it... and i bet you ..the point gaps and the balanceing will come closer together makeing it a more fun ride for all not just a select few...

Ahh, that is different then what i understood first Mystic. I always tough you wanted to remove Tripple all the way for everyone! I did think about it a lot. Especially with what Szlat said:

a LW player is more likely to pick up a triple than a LA player, as on average they will be closer to the dying monsters. A triple provides more benefit to a LW than a LA, as it gives back extra health as well as the damage and xp. If Adrenaline surge and energy leech were not inhibited whilst an artifact is running, that would be different. As it is, LWs get more out of a triple.

Convinced me that Tripple unbalance LW over LA and Medics.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

BotFodder — GMT

I don't wholly agree - at a given point, an LA player starts with a Triple, can magic a weapon (if it isn't already), and max a weapon. They also get adrenaline continually to power all of those. Granted it's stopped while they are using the Triple, but if an LW doesn't get a Triple, the LA player can run the map. If you need proof, look at Ooo, and even Kitfox to some extent. I'd bet that if Ooo and FodderFigure are on together (and I'd guess them to be similarly skilled players, though FodderFigure is clearly a higher level), Fodder won't be able to keep pace Ooo (or if Fodder does, it's probably by the benefit of his levels over Ooo) until Fodder finds a Triple. At that point, as a higher level player, you'd expect Fodder to do better. The additional benefit LWs get via vamp I think is offset somewhat by Adrenal Drip and similar stats that feed you adrenaline. And if you want to look at raw stats, you are more likely to have a higher max adrenaline than any LW (because really, we don't need it for regular use, and you even have a higher cap to max adrenaline). Give you guys a vamp weapon, and the playing field is *very* level between LA and LW.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

v0rTeX — GMT

I don't wish to enter this debate but I will add a couple of things to keep in mind. 1) If you remove the triple damage or change it in any way, it will affect all 3 classes equally. (The fact that LA players get one at spawn is a different issue, Im speaking strictly in terms of how its balanced when its actually used.) Altering the Triple Damage artifact will not change the balanced between the LW and LA players in any way. 2) I'll let you all debate this, but rather than remove it, how about just making it drain adrenaline faster?

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Kohan — GMT

Here's an idea that hasn't been mentioned that may work well. Make the triple damage identical to the double damage, except for the triple part. 30 seconds upon contact of triple damage. This would remove it from the Loaded Artifact dudes, which may tick them off a little, but it will also remove the whole break-after-a-while-when-deactivated issue and all that stuff. I dunno. Would people be complaining about it if it started out that way? A random note about the classes. Allow me to define balanced. Or more, give an example of how it would be measured. Balance means equality, that where one may be weak, another is strong, and vice versa. This would mean that in a random single player invasion game, every class would average out dying at the same wave. That's not what we have, and not what we want. Think of war. At least, stereotypical war. The front-line soldiers are much better than every other unit. Soldiers behind them may help resupply their ammunition, and there also may be medics around healing the wounded. That will give you an example of 'Balance is not the key.' It's teamwork. (pen names follow: mercenary, merchant ['sells' artifacts, etc], medic; respectively, weaponmaster, adrenalinemaster, monstermaster) The Mercenary relies on the Merchant to back him up, taking care of the slightly easier monsters. Both of those rely on Medics to keep them in good health, for if they are dead, the chances of survival are limited. Medics rely on the other two for the same reason. Do you see? Say 'pikapika' in any replying posts. Just to see if people listen to me. I also remind you of the first paragraph. Replies tend to direct towards the last thing read, as it is fresh in the replyer's mind.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Fro13 — GMT

What would be the point to being a LA player if you don't have the triple. I don't think this topic is really going anywhere. :roll:

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Mystic — GMT

.it should be loaded weapons players who shouldnt get the triple ... take today for example.. i played a map .20 people on small map..some high lvl players made medics or la players. ect.. so i took that oportunity to use the triple.., guess what happend. i took the lead with 1500 points. second place 940 third place..530...and the whole time ..everyone asked.wheres all the creatures.. i replied i killed them all with my triple.. look at the points. and not a single response.. thus proveing my point.. when high lvl LW players take hold of that triple.. its over ..no one can keep up unless you have a triple yourself... also next map ..i didnt use a triple .same people ..and the point scale was so close i saw new names in the top slots..cause they werent limited to a certain number of points because of people useing triples competeing against eachother. .. and they had a chance to go and get those points..i mean the points were so close i wish i had a screen shot .to show yall it just looked right.. and thats how it should be ..

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Mach10 — GMT

I don't think the triple makes a huge difference. It's the quality of player, not the class restrictions. Look at 320, at level 15 (his new character) he is still outscoring most people. I just started a medic character and I was able to put up a score that was similar to my LW character. The triple doesn't vault me over anyone else, it simply makes my score better. I like getting hige score, but for now I care more about XP, and while the triple helps with that aspect, it isn't a godsend. I've gotten more multi kills etc. on titan waves with no triple than with it.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Smokes — GMT

I think it is pretty well balanced, except the pinata of artifacts when a LA person dies. Trust me I go running when I see a triple drop. Other than that I don't get one every map. I would like to though :) but that would be an unfair advantage, once you are lucky enough to get one, you basically dominate especially if you have a high + weapon, it doesn't have to be the flak.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

320 — GMT

I miss Ooo. Wish he played more. He's my kind of guy. We had a bit of a rivalry going and he worked like crazy to get better. In the end it was always neck and neck. I had to learn a few new tricks to keep up and pump up my adren considerably (at the time it was like 115 and I never needed more). He and Soupman took the LA class to the next level. He will make a believer out of anyone that doubts the ability of the LA class. I'll tell a little story and then sit on the sidelines for the rest of this thread. Ooo tried and tried to beat me for a good six weeks or so. He is somewhat competitive. I could tell he really wanted it but I never thought much about it because I always had a healthy margin, triple or no. At some point he started leveling up like crazy and learning the game. He would get close in our games but I'd pull ahead. Then one day we were playing grassyknoll (big, open map). He maxed a flak and handed it out and then shortly after I got a triple. flak 5 and triple? Time to clean house. Then came wave 6, after which, I hit F1 to see how many hundreds of points ahead I was (LOL). I was behind by 200 points. Made all the more humiliating by the fact that Ooo is in England and has like 140 ping. It was funny because I kept running out of adren and wondering why. It was because he was beating me out of every other kill with his shock 5 and triple and forcing me to run out my adren. By wave 14 the nails were in the coffin. He was 400 points ahead of me even though I was going full out. Outplayed, outskilled. Flat out KILLED. I don't think I'm the best LW player, no way. But I'm pretty good. I got plain stomped and it was no accident. He just stepped up. I give him all the props in the world for it.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

BotFodder — GMT

320 wrote:

I miss Ooo. Wish he played more. He's my kind of guy. We had a bit of a rivalry going and he worked like crazy to get better. In the end it was always neck and neck. I had to learn a few new tricks to keep up and pump up my adren considerably (at the time it was like 115 and I never needed more). He and Soupman took the LA class to the next level. He will make a believer out of anyone that doubts the ability of the LA class. [snip] Then one day we were playing grassyknoll (big, open map). He maxed a flak and handed it out and then shortly after I got a triple. flak 5 and triple? Time to clean house. Then came wave 6, after which, I hit F1 to see how many hundreds of points ahead I was (LOL). I was behind by 200 points. Made all the more humiliating by the fact that Ooo is in England and has like 140 ping. It was funny because I kept running out of adren and wondering why. It was because he was beating me out of every other kill with his shock 5 and triple and forcing me to run out my adren. By wave 14 the nails were in the coffin. He was 400 points ahead of me even though I was going full out. Outplayed, outskilled. Flat out KILLED. I don't think I'm the best LW player, no way. But I'm pretty good. I got plain stomped and it was no accident. He just stepped up. I give him all the props in the world for it.

This is kinda my point, illustrated. If you didn't have the triple, not only would he have run you over ... it would have been by a much larger margin. On a tighter map, where he wouldn't get the benefit of pinging things at a distance with his shock, things *might* have been a bit more equal (he'd be more likely to take damage, have to hunt down health somehow). The balance between classes (and I've said it before) shifts with who has what weapon, who starts with what, what someone might pick up, the map being played, and even potentially the mix of players. I don't think the Triple is the "unbalancer" that Mystic thinks it is. And no, 320, you might not be the best. But you are damn good, I think. My point has always been that, at a certain point, if you take two similarly leveled LA and LW characters (say, around 60th or so, so the LW has LW 5 and the LA should by then have LA 3), the LA will actually run the map (even on tighter maps now, with Medics around), unless the LW gets a Triple. And from 320's post, we can see that then, the game is on. I'm going to have to review the thread ... has FodderFigure weighed in? I think between him and Fro, you've got the two strongest LW's. And Mystic - let's remember: you're fairly high level (IIRC - "Player Stats" is still busted) and not exactly the definition of "a bad player". Take the chance of getting a Triple away from an LW and then the LA players will run pretty much every map. I know - lower level LA is hard. But I think higher level LA gets an edge over similarly leveled LW's. Mystic: In your example you don't specify who was on, what level they were, or what class they were. If there wasn't an experienced LA player on that had mastered the triple usage, or wasn't similarly leveled with you, then your example wouldn't show just how powerful an LA can be. At most I would say stop the pinatage when a LA dies. But don't take the chance of getting a triple away from an LW totally ... As for the 30 second Triple idea - that would take away from the LA's. Ixnay. sorry guys - I have the heart of a writer, and you all know how much I can talk on the game sometimes. This post was almost longer!

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

MeanDevil — GMT

I think this thread needs blasting outta the forums with a triple'd flak 5! :P

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

BotFodder — GMT

Even though I'm one of the major (and the most long winded) contributors, I agree. Very few people agree with Mystic totally, it would seem, and it would also seem that even his opinion has changed (particularly once he saw the math RE: the Triple and Flak 5) as has mine, to an extent. However, I don't think any more discussion is really going to change anyone's mind any more, and the only thing that that will end the discussion totally is Dru saying "This is what I've decided, so SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN!". Anyways I'm done now.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

[KitFox] — GMT

Yeah im off this thread too i think we have said enough but just one more thing: 320, sooner or later, competition will be back for you :twisted:

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

crabman2 — GMT

Kohan wrote:

Say 'pikapika' in any replying posts.

PikaPika is a level 62 Raichu with Thunderbolt, Body Slam, Swift, and Agility!

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Fro13 — GMT

I think there are bigger factors than whether you have a triple or not. What the map is, who is on, what level they are. I think those are the big factors that contribute to your score. I've scored over 1500 several times without a triple. I use to do it alot when Ooo played(I know because he use to ask me). Usually alot of people are on when both of us are on, so I was never gauranteed a triple(usually don't when 20 are on). If I did get a triple, it was usually near the last few waves. The triple does help. I wouldn't have been able to get 2927 without it, but I would have easily got past 3000 if I had a piercing weapon(or some other minute factor swung my way). I can't get anywhere near 3000 if there are other high level players on, if there are alot a players on, if there are very few players on(less monsters), or even on many maps. On some maps, I struggle to even get close to 1000(with triple). I don't see a problem with the triple(maybe with LA players dropping artifacts when they die, but just becuase somebody might let them die to get their artifact). I just think there are bigger factors to a score than whether you have a triple or not.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Mystic — GMT

I dont post names ... but alot of regs were thier and in low lvl classes.. but. im done with this thread... if yall wanna continue dominatein the maps and leaving the lower levels high and dry ...fine ..i see now that yall are afraid of leaving the triple behind due to the fact it defines your playing style... whatever ... the case .this threads causeing complications and thats the last thing i wanted to happen.. ,Long story short.... its no longer just about the fun its about beating the other man.point wise.. wheres the team spirit in that ..? Erase this thread ...nuff said.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

Kohan — GMT

Outplayed, outskilled. Flat out KILLED.

You rhymed :D . If Triple Damage is the only reason anyone gets Loaded Artifacts, why not remove Loaded artifacts and replace it with a Loaded Triple Damage or something? I wouldn't be against removing the Triple Damage either. A bit of competition between players is good every once in a while, but when the players are put on two levels of strength based on one artifact, I think something's gone wrong. For quote: When the players are put on two levels of strength based on one artifact, I think something's gone wrong.

Re:+5's and triple dmg.

TheDruidXpawX — GMT

I'm starting a new thread. This one is too much... http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/1728.page