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Grizzled_Imposter

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Joined: 02/20/2006 15:59:35
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TheDruidXpawX
For players above level 40, how do you feel about this change? 


I like the change pretty well now. Some of the tactics that I have used previously are pretty null now tho. The most difficult things to adapt to have been the way that some of the bad guys use their teleportation in an agressive fashon, and the accuracy of lightning gun using guys.

The difficulty does not seem to be as big of a deal on A Saturday when there are a good number of experianced players on, but on Wednesday night when there are 3 of you the bet is on the bad guys.

Vehicle invasion on master difficulty is insane. I tried several times and could not survive more than a wave, and thats with my LW character. I was able to survive 1 or 2 with my medic when there were a lot of people on.

All in All, it is more challenging, and honestly it is more of a rush when you succesfully complete a map.

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Mach

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Joined: 09/04/2006 16:00:21
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My AM at level 39 currently is having problems staying alive, but that was also the case before the difficulty change. It's a pain to level the AM for me regardless of the difficulty level.

My level 46 medic is doing just fine, some waves I have to trans more than kill monsters, but that is to be expected. It doesn't hurt that I was working on health bonus and DR when new difficulty came into effect.

With my level 104 WM I love the new challenge. I had just gotten into doing combos so the new difficulty has not affected me negatively, if anything I am scoring more thanks to more monsters being around and less players alive on some of the high scoring waves. I can definitly feel the challenge though now, usually I could go until wave 16 or a brain fart on 6 or 14 before ghosting, now I can get bombarded and ghost from wave 11 on.
(DC)DEMONSLAYER

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Ditto--I like the more challenging level of play and I'm only a level 95. However, masterful level on the ons maps is crazy--rarely survive more than a couple of waves.

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Moof

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The masterful VINV is unreal (no pun intended). I was the last one left on wave 9 or 10 or somesuch yesterday, flying around in a Raptor and trying to blast some of the Gasbags out of the way. They blew me up and before I started to fall - instantly - three lightning Sniper Skaarj hit me simultaneously and killed me.

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TIMMY

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Joined: 05/30/2006 15:07:54
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hmmm.......i'm gonna hav to play the new VINV on the new difficulty setting..........the regular VINV dat i used to play was quite boring and i didn't rly need ghost or teammates at all on regular vehicle invasion as long as i have my trusty manta........dat might change with the new difficulty......i'm looking forward to it since i love VINV.

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Piper

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I have to admit, I'm finding this increased difficulty much more challenging than I would like. There are several things I liked about this server in the lower (normal) difficulty level.

Firstly, I could always have fun, while never being so challenged that the game felt like I was taking a pounding just to stay alive. I actually liked that I could see/hear some people chatting a bit as I played, lending itself to a "community" kind of gaming feel... like someone could actually have enough of a conversation (over time) with someone to strike up a friendship or two... or some kind of camaraderie. Jokes even! I noticed that now, there is so much "challenge" in the game that people don't have time to type anything in chat, or to joke or comment with each other. Even the voice chatting has declined so much I sometimes wonder if I've accidentally turned my sound too far down to hear it. The sound or sight of REAL people talking with each other in the game makes it more fun, like you're not just playing with a bunch of bots. I think the server has lost a bit of that "feel" it had in that respect. I've actually decided to allow my character to get killed a few times just so I could have enough time to spout off a funny comment or something just to break the silence. We used to be able to duck into a long corridor and get a few words off without getting killed for it. ;-)

Secondly, I'll have to admit, that I'm not the best player of the bunch here, or even average for all I know, but the difficulty is making me seriously think of visiting some other servers, or just not playing anymore at all. When I have to struggle to stay alive more than 30 seconds on any wave over 7, I have found myself getting discouraged with it. I'm not one to quit easily, but I don't really crave getting beat down into oblivion by my entertainment in the late evenings... I can get that from my job! (-; Because of the increased difficulty, I've noticed there are fewer players online too, always, than there used to be... adding to the difficulty level by itself. Seems that raising the difficulty level can work exponentially, as the difficulty increases, much of the help decreases at the same time, making the added difficulty even more pronounced. Lately, I never see more than about 9 players on late at night, and sometimes it gets to be only a few of us on at once. It used to be full all the time, and more fun because of it.

Lastly, I've been paying for a reserved slot, which I only use about 40 minutes every few days. With the added difficulty, the fewer people on, and my perceived "less fun" time I'm having here, I can't justify paying for a reserved slot after my time here expires again. Maybe if I get better, faster, or younger, I might have more fun at this level of difficulty. But, I'm sorry to say, I'm really not enjoying this (server) as much as I used to. Call me a wimp, call me lazy, call me unskilled, or whatever... the bottom line is money and time are at a premium for me now with another (#2) baby on the way, so last August may end up being the last time I pay into the server, unless things change. Don't consider this a threat or anything, I'm just telling it like it is. The main reason I stuck with this server in the first place was it's dedication to keeping it "kid friendly," but now it appears I need more like "unskilled friendly" to make it worth it. :-)

So, I'll be around off and on, but I'll have to see what happens when my reserved slot runs out to decide whether I'll re-up or not at this level. Anyway, thanks for listening to me ramble. Hopefully I haven't offended anyone who likes it more difficult.

PS: MAYBE a good way to help the lower level people, or the people who just don't play well, to do better with the high difficulty would be to remove or reduce the anti-camper mutator to allow people to hide a little better. Nothing like telling new or bad swimmers that you've decided to make the whole pool 5 feet deeper, and still not letting them stand on the deck to boot. (-; (Sorry this post is so long BTW)

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Wonko The Sane

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Joined: 08/09/2006 00:58:38
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I am around lvl 60 WM now.

VINV was my favourite, but now i dont like it at all (was a manta freak, but now with all the dodging it is getting very hard). This isnt so important, since people rarely vote for VINV.

I have a lot more problems with plain invasion too, as I usually play at times where there are 4 to 6 people on. But it is still plenty of fun, so its ok for me. I noticed that since the skaar and the like are dodging like crazy I am using mine layer A LOT more now. I always had the most kills with the flak or shield and close to none with mines. Now my mine layer is always on top. Lay the mines and let the spiders chase the dodging skaars. Looking at the statistics of other players, I found a lot of them use ML as a primary weapon too. This puts players skill to less importance than it was before. Another problem is that medics for majority of time have to heal themselves -> less healing for others, although we would actually need more now.

And I strongly agree with the first part of pipers post. Less chat, feels less friendly. Fewer weapons and artifact giveaways too.

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ECHO

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I definitely agree with Wonko's observation of mine layer usage. I'm level 67 and I think my shot with the shock is ok, but yesterday I had to waste at least 12 shots with a vorpal 10 on this single skaarj because it was jumping and rolling all over the place. Like many others, I just give up and start using the mine layer because it's often the only effective weapon. And personally, sometimes I don't bother to give out good weapons because hardly anyone has time to respond. Everyone is too busy killing to do much else.

Piper's minimalized anti-camper solution sounds great for low level players.

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Shantara

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I hear that several of you feel that the new difficulty level is taking away from the social aspects of the game. Here is my struggle with this:

The new difficulty level was implemented because so many people complained how easy the game was, and that there was no challenge to it. In addition, the poll clearly shows the vast majority of people prefer the new difficulty level.

I personally play this game entirely for the social aspects, so I would certainly like to achieve a good balance between challenging and socially fun. I have not noticed a marked decrease in social banter, but if many others see this as a problem we are willing to look into it.

However, changing the anti-camper is not something we are willing to consider at this point. The anti-camper only triggers when you cannot see or be seen by monsters, and are either out of bounds, or near a super weapon. This means that people can go hide and not be hit by monsters, in essence, like a semi-permanent Globe of Invulnerability.

Other thoughts on achieving this balance are welcome.

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supertoast

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Joined: 05/26/2006 17:06:36
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While that's all well and good that the anti-camper is supposed to work like that, it quite often doesn't.

It's kicked in before when I've just been standing in a normal part of a map healing people. A possible solution might be to make the countdown longer then 10 seconds if possible? That could be a useful thing. It would still move you if you are there far too long, but would give that few extra seconds to hide that might make a big difference.
Piper

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supertoast wrote:
While that's all well and good that the anti-camper is supposed to work like that, it quite often doesn't.
It's kicked in before when I've just been standing in a normal part of a map... 


That has been my experience with it quite often as well. I've even been threatened with the out-of-bounds message as I was shooting and being hit by monsters! :) The out-of-bounds message pops up many times while in plain view (and under fire) from monsters on many maps.

Does the anti-camper kick in when you are in a place monsters can't go or where they can't fire? I would think being able to run away or jump to a place where they can't necessarily go should be fine if they can still fire their projectiles to you. Many of the monsters can fly where we can't go, but they aren't forced to the ground where we can get them easier like we are forced out of more defendable areas. (-;

Also, monsters can trans to you ANYwhere as well, giving them an even more unfair advantage IMHO. I've seen Queens falling from the sky after transing over-and-over to someone flying high in a vehicle -- and they neve seemt o get falling damage either. I think monsters should have to find us by walking/running/flying rather than trans-ing directly beside us when they are in the advantage, and trans-ing away from us when they are being shot at.

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TheDruidXpawX

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Piper wrote:
I've even been threatened with the out-of-bounds message as I was shooting and being hit by monsters! :)  
This is not my experience. It's been though extensive testing, and I've yet to see a situation at any time where it appeared and was not valid. If you have discovered a bug, please start a separate post about it.

Piper wrote:
Does the anti-camper kick in when you are in a place monsters can't go or where they can't fire? I would think being able to run away or jump to a place where they can't necessarily go should be fine if they can still fire their projectiles to you. 
It triggers when you're somewhere they can't go, unless you can see them, and more importantly, they can see you, in which case the countdown is suspended.


Piper wrote:
Many of the monsters can fly where we can't go, but they aren't forced to the ground where we can get them easier like we are forced out of more defendable areas. (-; 
I suggest you vote in maps where there are defendable areas in bounds BR-Bifrost is a prime example.

Piper wrote:
Also, monsters can trans to you ANYwhere as well 
This is incorrect. If you're out of bounds, no monster will attempt to fly to you and no monster will be move there by the monster mover. The queens teleport will also not work to that location. Sometimes when you're out of bounds, if a monster can see you, it will make an attempt to go to you.

Piper wrote:
I think monsters should have to find us by walking/running/flying rather than trans-ing directly beside us when they are in the advantage, and trans-ing away from us when they are being shot at. 
With the exception of queens, the monster mover is responsible for moving the monsters within a reasonable distance of the players. This is in direct response to players combing huge maps in an attempt to find the last razor fly, or missing pupae. That reasonable distance is neither directly near, nor too far. just a safe visible distance away.

If we were to remove this mod, we will have to delete all large maps of any kind. If you would like, we can start a poll about whether people would rather have the monster mover or large maps.

If you would like us to remove the anticamper, we can start another poll about removing it, but be warned. Removal of the anticamper means that we will likely remove all non-standard maps. I know you weren't around for the last time this discussion came up, so I will give you the abbreviated version. Before we instigated the anticamper, Shantara and I were unable to play much because we had to constantly police the people who would go out of bounds for extended periods of time. That's not fun for us, and we are unwilling to do so again in the future.

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TheDruidXpawX

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I do have the intention of providing some basic skills to new players to help keep them alive up through level 35 or 40. Things like additional damage reduction, or ghost, etc... depending on their level. I just haven't had time to code it.

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The fundamental problem is this: The first word we learn as children is NO. From that point forward society teaches women that saying no isn't polite, and society teaches men to respect those who wont take no for an answer.

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Piper

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TheDruidXpawX wrote:
With the exception of queens, the monster mover is responsible for moving the monsters within a reasonable distance of the players. This is in direct response to players combing huge maps in an attempt to find the last razor fly, or missing pupae. That reasonable distance is neither directly near, nor too far. just a safe visible distance away.

If we were to remove this mod, we will have to delete all large maps of any kind. If you would like, we can start a poll about whether people would rather have the monster mover or large maps. 


I guess maybe the "safe visible distance away" might need to be further away due to the increased ability of the monsters to immediately run you down with this new difficulty level. Seems logical that increasing the monsters' abilities would also cause a needed adjustment in this distance? Nali and Skaarg seem to be the most noticable offenders in this area due to their speed.

It also seems like the monster-mover kicks in whenever the mosters are far enough away from the nearest player. If this is true, maybe it would be better if the monster-mover kicked in only when there was only a few monsters left in the wave?

I do think the anti-camper and the monster-mover are useful mods, and shouldn't be removed. I just think maybe there are some (simple?) tweaks that possibly could be applied to make them more friendly in light of the new difficulty level.

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InsaneManiac

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Joined: 04/27/2006 07:23:22
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I appreciate and openly welcome the higher difficulty. A higher difficulty adds a new degree to playing, allowing players to try and develop new techniques/strategies to improve their overall skill. The learning curve is nothing to laugh at, I'll admit when I first started playing that I wanted a less difficult experience. But I decided to stick with it. Whether a person be a WM, AM, or Medic. Each person has unique challenges and obstacles that their going to have to overcome. In my opinion, with the higher difficulty curve, your going to be that better of a player overall in the long run. Rather than trying to think I could go head to head with a Titan and a flak each and every match. The idea that I can take down a titan as simple as 1, 2, 3 is not very appealing. After a certain period of time, it will start going to my head.

Thinking that I am some invincible player that can take anything and everything down with the flak. What happens when I go onto another server and I am not as good as I thought I was? I'd rather have that new degree of difficult and game play rather than continuously fire away with my flak each and every wave. It becomes repetitive. Having the difficulty stay one step ahead of a person is going to keep their mind sharp and learn to develop newer techniques/strategies that they never thought of before.

Being able to survive all 16 waves would be a blessing, but knowing that you have the ability to adapt, develop, and overall survive is a better game play experience rather than just knowing and being able to predict what each monster is going to do wave after wave. I admit I have some gripes about the higher difficulty, but I know I have become a better overall player because of the difficulty.

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