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Loaded Weapson players need something, but what???  XML
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[BGE]Cha-Chi

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Joined: 02/06/2005 19:30:36
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Many of the old school DC'ers know me and I have been making more appearances as of late playing on DC. About the time I had to lay off of gaming a bit, the introduction of the classes such as LA's Medics, etc were just being put into play. Its really cool seeing all the things that have made this server even more dynamic and fun to play. But with the addition of all these classes, the Loaded Weapon players seem to be on the lower end of the "goodies bag."

Sure some can argue that they start with great weapons all the time. But the majnority of the time these weapons are handed out ASAP so that everyone can enjoy them, which in the long run makes them a little less special to have. Don't get me worng I am all for teamwork but it seems like other classes are given things that are proprietary towards them and benefit them more in the progression of EXP than the LW players. Good example, Medics. They help people in the server alot but they also get the reward of experience for there help. LW players don't get a reward of anything other than helping the rest of the players get great wepons.

I don'tk know, maybe I just feel the loaded weapon player has been left out of the progression of classes. It was basically there MANY RPG versions ago and hasn't really ever changed.

What do the rest of youthink. Could they get anything such as maybe the option to purchase a stat increase of some type. Example: Extra Damage Redcution. Have it were you purchase this ability that allows, lets say, 10 extra damage reduction to be able to add to your stats. Make it maybe 15 points to purchase. Then after you have the ability save up 10 points to throw into it. This still makes it so that the player can still get something extra but still cost 25 points, in this example atleast, to get 10 more reduction points.

Food for thought, anyone else?

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Szlat

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I agree, LWs have been left behind a bit.
Since they are supposed to be front line fighters, I think extra damage and extra damage reduction would be good.
I also think it's strange that LAs typically have better weapons than LWs. So, personally, I would improve the LWs weapons by allowing their weapons to have more than one magic type.
Drago'Nish

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Szlat wrote:
I agree, LWs have been left behind a bit.
Since they are supposed to be front line fighters, I think extra damage and extra damage reduction would be good.
I also think it's strange that LAs typically have better weapons than LWs. So, personally, I would improve the LWs weapons by allowing their weapons to have more than one magic type. 

that idea has been made before, but letting them have 2 magic types would make the weapons greatly more powerfull, and i mean to powerfull.
and it would take a lot of aditional code to make all those magic weapons as you cant just put in the code damage+infinity for example, and it will still always be fixed combinations.

it would be nice with random combinations, but i dont think thats possible.
and then they should not be capable of dropping, else they would give em away anyway..

Zenas: Weapons Master - lvl 26
Szlat

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Drago'Nish wrote:
it would be nice with random combinations, but i dont think thats possible. 
It is possible, but it is quite a bit of work. Look at the Weapons of Power mod as an example http://users.adelphia.net/~rpowers96/Wop/index.html
I am not saying DC should use that, just showing that it is possible.

Drago'Nish wrote:
and then they should not be capable of dropping, else they would give em away anyway. 
Agreed. Although it would also be possible to make it so they could pass them to other LWs but not to LAs/medics.

Drago'Nish wrote:
letting them have 2 magic types would make the weapons greatly more powerfull, and i mean to powerfull. 
Not really. Remember, if LAs cannot get them, then they cannot be maxed or PlusOne'd, so on average they would have lower modifiers. It could easily be made so that the more magic types a weapon had, the less raw damage it did, or even had a lower max modifier.
RadicalROM

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Now my 2 cents which is not worth much. I agree healers get an added bonus of experience when they heal so why not do something like that for loaded weapons.

The idea is why not for that game or for a certain time frame if a player gives a weapon to another player the giving player gets some sort of bonus (more damage, exp per hand out) to add even more complexity it could take in account for what type of weapon you hand out such as a vorpal would give you the highest bonus value were a standard weapon would give you the least. Or you could just have 2 bonuses which would be if you were handing out a copy would be less bonus and a * would be more bonus. I agree the bonuses must be very small, especially for a copied weapon because potentially you could copy it 19 times + DC players.

What this would do is improve on teamwork. Yes I like handing out weapons but on another hand I know it will hurt me in the long run because of a smaller score If there was some bonus for handing out I would think that you would see people hand out more.

I am not a programmer so I have no clue how tough this would even be to make the changes. Also my ideas may just stink (it would not be the first time). Also it could inbalance the game to much. That is why I say whatever bonus it should be small.

Ok there is my 2 cents.

Radicalrom
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LW is fine the way it is. If anything is added make it expensive, 50 stat points per added level of whatever. Adding abilities is OK, but they should be hard to come by.

The most realistic idea and the easiest for the programmer would be add a level or two to all the present skills. Here are some ideas I've seen over the past few months I would like to see.

1. The ability to keep all our weapons in case we die.
2. The ability to purchase a weapon of choice and keep it between maps. These weapons could be upgradable with a slight devaluation of the "used" weapon. i.e. I buy a shock 4 for 20 stat points and then decide I'd rather have the infinite 3 link which sells for 30 stat points. I trade back my shock for a credit of 17 stat points and then I get my link for 30. There should be an initial cost for this ablity. A vorpol should cost 100 stat points
3. A faster ghost.
4. Ability to combine weapons of choice.

Just my 3 cents worth (which I know is worth more then if I just gave you my 2 cents worth and I know you wouldn't want that.)






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I am commonly wrong, but I find that I make more experiance, more points and survive better with LW than the other classes. Medics may get experiance for healing. LW characters may get to make lots of magic weapons.

Loaded Weapons characters have (eventualy) all of the weapons and skills to keep them alive.

Thats not to say that I do not want more for my LW character, but if you are giving away all of your weapons, you are volintarily giving up one of your primary advantages, A weapon for every situation.

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Continuum

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FodderFigure wrote:
LW is fine the way it is. If anything is added make it expensive, 50 stat points per added level of whatever. Adding abilities is OK, but they should be hard to come by.

The most realistic idea and the easiest for the programmer would be add a level or two to all the present skills. Here are some ideas I've seen over the past few months I would like to see.

1. The ability to keep all our weapons in case we die.
2. The ability to purchase a weapon of choice and keep it between maps. These weapons could be upgradable with a slight devaluation of the "used" weapon. i.e. I buy a shock 4 for 20 stat points and then decide I'd rather have the infinite 3 link which sells for 30 stat points. I trade back my shock for a credit of 17 stat points and then I get my link for 30. There should be an initial cost for this ablity. A vorpol should cost 100 stat points
3. A faster ghost.
4. Ability to combine weapons of choice.

Just my 3 cents worth (which I know is worth more then if I just gave you my 2 cents worth and I know you wouldn't want that.) 


I like this idea but maybe keep it from being maxed.

lvl 1: you get the base uncursed weapon
lvl 2: you get to choose from a few magic types and get +1
lvl 3: you can up the + for your weapon
lvl 4: you can choose from a few better magic types and get +1

With loaded weapons(lvl 5?)not sure if lvl 1 would work since you start with all magic weapons but this way you could choose the magic type for 1 weapon and get +1 or +2 for it while maybe still being able to have a LA max it for you.




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edomingox

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I think LW is fine. It's up to the player to choose to give away any weapons he/she may have. Same goes for LA players. There are pluses and minuses to being LW or LA. LW gets regeneration. LA gets adrenal drip. I would say it's still balanced and again, it's up to the player to decide if they want to give away weapons. I personally don't ask for weapons, but I will take anything that is handed out.

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320

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edomingox wrote:
I think LW is fine. It's up to the player to choose to give away any weapons he/she may have. Same goes for LA players. There are pluses and minuses to being LW or LA. LW gets regeneration. LA gets adrenal drip. I would say it's still balanced and again, it's up to the player to decide if they want to give away weapons. I personally don't ask for weapons, but I will take anything that is handed out. 


I don't see a huge shortfall, personally. In playing both LW and LA since 190, LW definately took a hit with the increased appetite of the triple (10/sec vs 7 per sec is a 43% increase in consumed adren). Even my LA char feels this hit and I have to much more selective with my use. Triple + Globe is a sure adren killer, whereas before, it was possible to run this combo much more effectively before.




dip42

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320 wrote:
I don't see a huge shortfall, personally. In playing both LW and LA since 190, LW definately took a hit with the increased appetite of the triple (10/sec vs 7 per sec is a 43% increase in consumed adren). Even my LA char feels this hit and I have to much more selective with my use. Triple + Globe is a sure adren killer, whereas before, it was possible to run this combo much more effectively before. 


Doesn't Energy Leech and Adrenal Drip give you ADL. everytime you hit somthing. So You would be able to run a global + triple for a long period of time if you just have somthing to hit. Also if you have a flak 3 energy than I think it would be hard for you to drain your ADL. if your shooting and killing stuff..

For the LW players. I think that being able to buy more of somthing would be great. Lets say for 20 stat points you would be able to buy another mine for your mine layer reaching the max of 8. If you where able to buy a weapon and keep it for a map or more as Fodder had said, then it would kill for whoever has that vorpal for the whole entire time that they play. It would just make things unfair again for the other classes.
OR
If LW players had an added skills that no other class had that would be great. I mean yea we get the weapons an all but, LA gets ALL artifact plus some. Medics get monsters and healing which give you xp. That just leaves LW players with vamp. Medics could easily make a healing RL and shoot down and heal themselves. LA players could use Energy Leech and Adrenal Drip to active booster or such which would give them health also.
I personally think that LW players get less for their money

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I tend to think it has become a bit unbalanced in favor of the LA players, but that may just be the LW in me playing. My logic is as follows:

The LW players are supposed to be the frontline Warriors. Yes, they get all weapons right at the beginning. Yes, they have Vampirism. The problem is, LA players are capable of dealing more damage/killing more mosnters faster due to two things: Every one of them gets a Triple Damage, and every one of them can make a more powerful weapon than the LW players. I'll explain the slash in damage/killing later, but I'd like to address the other two things first.

I know the idea behind the LA players is to have them be the mages of the server, but giving them every artifact available, plus some specialized ones, seems a bit unfair. At full skill, they can create the most powerful, unsharable weapons in very little time. Not only that, they can now add an additional point to that weapon to make it even more powerful, which doesn't even take into account the Double Magic Modifier, which I actually like for the LA players. So a LW dream combo is instantly available to LA players, whereas LW players get random luck upon their weapon sets, and have to hope that they get a MWM in order to try for something different, which may or may not be a better weapon, a fact the LA players don't have to fear, since they can just max the + on whatever weapon they desire. The Mages/LA players can actually do more damage overall, and can get the weapons to do so much easier than the Warriors/LW players.

Now on to the much debated Triple Damage. The fact that the mages get this from the start seems a bit unfair to me, but again, I'm stuck fighting every other player that isn't LA to get one, of which there are a limited number. So many of the Warrior class that can't get ahold of a TD are stuck relying on whatever weapons they happen to spawn with, or they made if they managed to get hold of a MWM which, as stated above, is no guarantee of a better weapon than what they have. The fact that the LA players can keep the TD going for much longer due to the Energy Drain/Leech abilities makes the TD even more powerful in their favor.

Now, all this is taking into account that you are talking about damage output, and not simply talking about who has an easier time getting a higher score. Since I'm looking at damage over score, I'm leaving the Vorpal weapons out of the argument. Yes, they can be high damage, but if you run around with a +11 Vorpal Shock, you're more likely to get the one hit kill, which reduces your experience compared to someone killing the monster the old fashioned way.

Now, some suggestions on how to fix these particular issues. Granted, these are my opinions, and I am woefully inept when it comes to programming languages, and ease of implementation. Please take them as such when formulating opinions about them.

The Triple Damage: I propose removing it from the artifacts that the LA players spawn with, and replacing it with a 1.5 or Double damage that drains adrenaline at the same rate as it does with the recent upgrade. Then create a new ability for the LW players were they spawn with the TD and the Globe of Invincibility (or a damge reducing item), both of which would drain slower for the LW players. Since the LW players are meant to be the Warriors, they would be more adept at using damage or defensive increasing items (the reason for the slower drain), and would be able to use a higher level of each (the reason for the TD, instead of a Double).

The Weapons: Perhaps giving LW players access the the Max Magic Modifier or Weapon +1 modifier would help, or even giving them the ability to get/create the (now reduced) vanilla weapons at their old values, or even a higher one. You could set it up so that the minimum for the weapons the LW spawn with is higher than what the actual minimum of the weapon is (example: LW can't spawn with anything less than a Vamp +5, instead of a possible +4, which I believe is the minimum). Maybe even setting it up so that the LW players get weapons that other classes can't access, even with a MWM.

This isn't something I expect, or even consider fair, but having the LW players spawning with a Vorpal Sheild of some kind would make close to the Warrior types their supposed to be, since they would then be much stronger than the other classes when it comes to melee fighting.

You would, of course, have balance issues and such to take into consideration with all of these. I don't know how the numbers would work out when it comes to overall damage output and such, but setting up the classes so that they are closer to the roles they were meant to represent seems like it would help players choose how they want to play. I'll admit right now that I prefer full-frontal brute force, which is why I stick primarily with LW. I'm sure that these opinions are biased, but I'd like to think that I thought this through objectively enough to come up with some decent ideas with my limited knowledge of what can be done. As always though, constructive criticism is always welcome.

I do appologize to the medic players, though, for not including them in these arguments. I tend to think that the way they are set up is very, very well thought out for their intended role. Perhaps a thread by a more experienced Medic player about some of the issues you've run into?
320

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dip42 wrote:


Doesn't Energy Leech and Adrenal Drip give you ADL. everytime you hit somthing. So You would be able to run a global + triple for a long period of time if you just have somthing to hit. Also if you have a flak 3 energy than I think it would be hard for you to drain your ADL. if your shooting and killing stuff..

 


Dip, fortunately, it doesn't. It would be crazy. When you activate globe, triple, DMM or LR, Drip stops and Leach doesn't work. Surge does work, though. So for the stuff you do kill you get 2x the adren award.

With an energy 3, a lot of stuff is possible though. The increased cost of the triple makes an energy flak very valuable to a LW player...
Szlat

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Wildfire wrote:
..... Then create a new ability for the LW players were they spawn with the TD and the Globe of Invincibility (or a damge reducing item), both of which would drain slower for the LW players.
......
Perhaps giving LW players access the the Max Magic Modifier or Weapon +1 modifier would help..... 

I am not convinced that the way to improve LWs is to give them more artifacts. I much prefer your other suggestions about

Wildfire wrote:
You could set it up so that the minimum for the weapons the LW spawn with is higher than what the actual minimum of the weapon is (example: LW can't spawn with anything less than a Vamp +5, instead of a possible +4, which I believe is the minimum). Maybe even setting it up so that the LW players get weapons that other classes can't access, even with a MWM 

But also, the initial suggestion of extra DR and DB (or protection and weapon proficiency) as suggested at the top of the thread and by others previously would significantly help LWs.
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I've been reading this thread on and off. Not to rain on everyone's parades, but:

Class limits to stats (like DB/DR/HB, etc): Dru and/or Shan have stated elsewhere that they were considering, at one time, giving AM's a max of 250 adren, and all other classes only 200. It turns out that attempting to set this up is a code nightmare. I can only guess that doing that for any class and any stat would be similarly difficult.

I to agree that adding starting artifacts to WM's are *not* the way to go. Ixnay, bad idea, blurs the line between WM and AM ...

Similarly, extending Denial 3 to WMs has been expressed by Dru (I think - Dru will smoosh me properly if I'm wrong) as something that Won't Happen (much like extending Vamp or Regen to AMs). LW5 starts with all positive magic items, so they don't need Denial 3. AMs, on the other hand, can spend a good portion of the map time just making a set of weapons. Hence that's why they get Denial 3.

I once suggested a LW6 where all the magical items would be maxed. Dru shot it down with a well thought out reason (nullifies the teamwork that exists with AMs). A modification of that, as expressed elsewhere, may not be out of the question, though ... if it were possible to ensure that all the magical items got + values greater than half of their max, I'd suggest that as LW6. Doesn't totally nullify the need for the occasional maxing, and would stop the wonderful "+0 Sturdy!" thing. God I hate getting one of those as a "positive" magic item - 0 is not positive!

Dru and I have discussed the Pinata thing a bit - the end goal eventually is to allow classes other than AM to drop artifacts on death. While the coding of this has it's share of issues (which is why the limitation is not in yet), it's better than stopping the Pinata effect for every class - other classes will have to rely solely on "monster kill obtained" artifacts, whether they get it directly or through some non-AM's death.

Dru at one time was also considering a WM only skill that would give them a permanent additional DB. Not sure what happened to that idea.

Finally, the point that has been expressed about balance is of course a valid one - things are fairly balanced now as it is. New benefits for a single class must be considered very carefully. Besides, the beauty of the WM class is it's relative simplicity ... no artifacts to scroll through; at midbie to high levels, you just hit the ground running ...

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