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Loaded Weapson players need something, but what???  XML
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RadicalROM

Rampage

Joined: 06/06/2006 05:43:49
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I agree balance is a tricky thing. Once you start playing with one class, you almost have to somehow adjust the other classes.

Of course everyone wants their class improved.
Deunan

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Joined: 06/07/2005 21:19:19
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FodderFigure wrote:

2. The ability to purchase a weapon of choice and keep it between maps. These weapons could be upgradable with a slight devaluation of the "used" weapon. i.e. I buy a shock 4 for 20 stat points and then decide I'd rather have the infinite 3 link which sells for 30 stat points. I trade back my shock for a credit of 17 stat points and then I get my link for 30. There should be an initial cost for this ablity. A vorpol should cost 100 stat points 

I like this idea but sort of modified. Because using the same weapon over and over can get boring, it would give a chance to change to a new one. However ultimately some LW players could quickly max out to Vorpal and in the long run, too many vorpals on one map isn't fun for everyone. Maybe do somthing like have LW's that are maxed spawn with a special MWM that breaks after the first use, but have the percentage/chance of getting a maxed weapon at say 30%
just an idea to add on..

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320

Wicked Sick!

Joined: 10/11/2005 21:28:38
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Wildfire wrote:
I tend to think it has become a bit unbalanced in favor of the LA players, but that may just be the LW in me playing. My logic is as follows:

 


Wildfire... LA certainly "rules the roost", right now. There are many advantages...
Spacey

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As 320 said (and several folks have said otherwise)... drip and leach are off according to everything I can figure up by the math, etc. when an artifact such as the triple or globe are activated. So things are not as Wildfire or dip42 indicated, and I hope they now realize this. The only thing that gains a LA player adren which is not there for any other class is the surge skill, or that extra plus in a energy+4 (or any MAX+1) weapon. And while I am speaking of energy+4, made with that MAX+1 artifact and 250 adren...even when you are shooting and killing stuff, you have to be really careful. Even with an energy+4 or damage+5, I have to switch it on/off, and can seldom go for more than 25 sec even during a titan round on a map where I can do sprees. And globe+triple...sorry dip42, 320 is right, it is an adren killer. Total adren usage now is 26/sec, if I am remembering the numbers correctly, meaning roughly 9.5s max just standing there. Anything short of lots of titans generally does not help appreciably there, and things go so fast, I have pretty much figured most of the time, it is not worth it. Reason being, even turning it off and on in a single key, or selectively turning off/on either the globe or triple, you pretty much are constantly doing so, and there never is enough to really kill. But then again, I am still trying to judge what works best for my playing style with the changes in 1.9x.

Now, wildfire suggests that a LA player can make a more powerful weapon. Wish it were so, but unfortunately, that is not a given, as it assumes that it is worth our adren and the time it takes to get it to max that sturdy, healing or penetrating weapon. And so, we spend countless hundreds of adren for all the times we use the MWM trying to get something, just to get that stupid sturdy+1 weapon. Or the even larger amounts to get the damage or energy weapon. And getting a vorpal is pure luck. As Bot said, this is one reason we get denial 3. And then there is the cooperation factor. I get a weapon LW players might like, I will max it and pass it out. Inf+4...does me no good, so I hand it out to some low level player, be they LW or LA, that does not have resupply. And a LW player wants that vorp or rage maxed...I spend the 150 adren to max it for them, wishing the vorp were mine, and hoping they might toss me something in return sometime (like the flak when we are on Face, or sniper or shock on some others, or a deemer on some other maps).

Now, a couple of questions to think about, and perhaps even answer in your future posts... First, how many of you are looking at the LA players without having the experience of having played one, especially to the higher levels where things like the MAX+1, huge adren levels, etc. come into play? Say to at least level 62, which is going to cost you around 500pts for maxing just drip, leach, surge, adren, getting LW3 and denial 3, and any DB/DR needed to get the skills). That ignores health, ghost, and all the other stuff which would also prove helpful. My main character was around level 75 and a LW5 player when Dru created the LA class and allowed some of us to switch over...something which in retrospect probably was not a good thing. The only one I can think of at the moment who has played an LA player from scratch to a level higher than mine is 320. Fro is still down near 81 and does not have his adren adren skills maxed. And neither of these two players are what I would call a typical player, even on DC. Everyone else is a convert to my recollection. So I would ask you to please at least try playing a LA player to these higher levels before suggesting that there is an imballance. And if you have, please post your levels and how recently you have played the classes, so all of us know your experience with things. But I will tell you, when 320 says something comparing the two, even I give what he says some thoughts, even with my player being level 124, and #40 on the list of players.

Secondly, can you point to data showing this imballance? I will tell you right now, if you are looking at players like 320 or some of the other higher level players and their scores relative to others, consider how they score when they play LW or even medic. They are probably still up there. And even for an individual, sometimes there can be a bias in their style which favors their LA or LW player. I will even say this could be true between my lvl 24 LW player and my LA player when I was around lvl 90. My lvl 24 LW player average score is probably nearly that which I got with my lvl 90 LA player, and at times, even my lvl 1240 LA player. My point here is that even with a few individuals showing the imballance between their LW, LA and medic players, the statistical sample may be too small.

Also, when it comes to something like a permanent additional DB, how much should something like that cost??? When you think about it, that is really the equivilent of a LA player using the MAX+1 on a weapon worth doing that to. So should it cost the same as it cost the LA player to be able to do that? That would be 250pts, ignoring the requirement to be LA2, and the fact that without denial3, a death makes that perment. That would add on more points. So, I hope you realize that it would be very easy to tip things too far the other way.

I personally do not envy Dru with the headaches he may have created for himself when he created classes, even if it is fun. And that is ignoring the griping that a number of us (including myself) have done. My hat is off to ya man!

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Spacey

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320 wrote:

Wildfire wrote:
I tend to think it has become a bit unbalanced in favor of the LA players, but that may just be the LW in me playing. My logic is as follows:

 


Wildfire... LA certainly "rules the roost", right now. There are many advantages... 


Is it that LA rules the roost, or that many of the persons currently playing LA rule the roost, particularly when playing LA??

*BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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320

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Joined: 10/11/2005 21:28:38
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Spacey wrote:

320 wrote:

Wildfire wrote:
I tend to think it has become a bit unbalanced in favor of the LA players, but that may just be the LW in me playing. My logic is as follows:

 


Wildfire... LA certainly "rules the roost", right now. There are many advantages... 


Is it that LA rules the roost, or that many of the persons currently playing LA rule the roost, particularly when playing LA?? 


Secondly, can you point to data showing this imballance? I will tell you right now, if you are looking at players like 320 or some of the other higher level players and their scores relative to others, consider how they score when they play LW or even medic. They are probably still up there. And even for an individual, sometimes there can be a bias in their style which favors their LA or LW player. I will even say this could be true between my lvl 24 LW player and my LA player when I was around lvl 90. My lvl 24 LW player average score is probably nearly that which I got with my lvl 90 LA player, and at times, even my lvl 1240 LA player. My point here is that even with a few individuals showing the imballance between their LW, LA and medic players, the statistical sample may be too small.  


Player skill/knowledge/practice versus class advantages can be difficult to discern, however, I think LA has the advantage right now. Not in all scenarios, not on all maps, etc, but in the majority of cases, particularly when medics are playing and when the server is crowded.

When the server is not crowded, (say 10 people or less) the versatility and survivability of LW probably makes it the strongest. Two weeks ago when the triple-double was still available, this wasn't true, however.

I overstated the case in my reply to wildfire, it's not a *huge* imbalance as I sort of implied.

In terms of a head-to-head comparison, the differences are only really evident when both players are high level and very skilled. In other words, I don't think the majority of players need be concerned that they might be playing a "weaker" class. They can improve their scores most through practice and trying new strategies, not by switching classes.






320

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RadicalROM wrote:
I agree balance is a tricky thing. Once you start playing with one class, you almost have to somehow adjust the other classes.

Of course everyone wants their class improved.  


Very tricky. And by accident, design or both the situation is much better than most people realize on DC.

When I used to play Street Fighter fanatically there were often huge character balance issues. Serious players even seperate the different characters into tiers. So if you're playing someone who's really good, you better pull out your top-tier character or you'll get owned.
Fraggerman

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Spacey wrote:
...So I would ask you to please at least try playing a LA player to these higher levels before suggesting that there is an imballance. ...

 


320 wrote:
Wildfire... LA certainly "rules the roost", right now. There are many advantages... 


Spacey wrote:
Is it that LA rules the roost, or that many of the persons currently playing LA rule the roost, particularly when playing LA?? 



320 is a high level player, so I will trust his statement. Although.... there are a few LW players around which may challenge the "LAs rule the roost" statement.

Spacey wrote:
First, how many of you are looking at the LA players without having the experience of having played one 

It's a bit unfair to ask someone to dedicate many hours to the LA character before allowing them to comment on it.

Spacey wrote:
My lvl 24 LW player average score is probably nearly that which I got with my lvl 90 LA player 


Not that I doubt you but this is hard to believe. I wouldn't mind seeing a recent score from your LW player compared to a recent score from your LA player. It looks like you like numbers and comparing, so I think you might enjoy it. I only ask this because I think the classes are pretty equal, no one seems to be running away with the scores when there is a player of equal level from another class playing against them.

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320

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I think the classes are close enough right now that nothing really needs to be done. Player skill is still king. One class or another may have different potential, but it's not worth losing sleep over.

LW is still the most well-rounded class - a very smooth progression as you level up and predictable returns on your stat points. I recommend everyone try both and play the one they enjoy the most. I like both so I switch back and forth alot. I even have different user.ini files for each with different keybinds to cater to the different play styles.
Hobo_Joe

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Fraggerman wrote:

Spacey wrote:
First, how many of you are looking at the LA players without having the experience of having played one 

It's a bit unfair to ask someone to dedicate many hours to the LA character before allowing them to comment on it.

 


He never said they couldn't comment on it before they tried it..but you need to remember that a lot of time people come up with their own ideas from what they've heard from other people..then if they do try it they find out something else.

320 wrote:
I think the classes are close enough right now that nothing really needs to be done. Player skill is still king. One class or another may have different potential, but it's not worth losing sleep over.

 


I agree...I have one of each class. I've played them all and they seem extremely well balanced to me. I personally don't see how Dru can get them any more balanced then they already are

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kyraeu

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I personally do not have a LW character for the reason that 1) there are enough of them already and 2) if I wanted to play one I would just go to another server that doesn't do classes. Which is why I am mostly LA.

If we didn't pinata, I am pretty sure that LA would get a huge boost. I think that LA beats LW at my level (40-50), if I can keep alive like they can. High-level LWs still own my score, but I'm a lot closer than I would think. Dip and I had a vorpal 10 shock contest a few days ago, and I was really lucky to win - he got stepped on a few times.

I probably should not comment so much, seeing as I don't know how LWs work on this server - so I'll end this post here. Suffice to say my opinion is that LA > LW.

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