FLAK +5!?!?!?!

Skilled LA players:

I'm not saying for 100% sure that this is the case. Take it as anecdotal evidence of the feeling I have ...

I went from halfway through 30th level last night to well into 34th with BotBooster in a *very* short period of time. Yes, I know, there's double XP. I know that leveling requirements are relaxed. But I know that, while I was going up pretty fast with my Medic, I wasn't going up *that* fast (though there's some debate about whether healing xp has been doubled or not, and you could argue that I didn't spend an entire afternoon as my medic, but rotated characters regularly). And I doubt I would have gone up that fast with my WM (mind you he's 104th and if I wanted I could probably get him up a full level in less than 6 hours of solid play with the double XP).

For an average map as my 100+ WM I'm probably clearing 2500 XP duing this double XP extravaganza (on a good map I'm hitting 3000, 3500). Didn't pay that much attention, so don't take it as definite.

Maybe I had a good couple of maps (it didn't feel that way, I died a lot - but someone did mention that the player base was a bit smaller than usual for most of the afternoon), but I was probably getting close to 2500 XP a map as my barely in his 30s AM, and I spent *a lot* of the time while I was doing that good maxing and making weapons (the triple was less than secondary - think more like tertiary to my play during this day). I'd say within 5-6 maps I went up those four levels.

And maybe, I'll admit, I was in a "zone," and both my play and my sense of time were altered.

If the server had the ability to do so without struggling, though, it would be interesting to see logs of xp rates for the players that play a full map (logs including player name, class, and xp earned).

320 - another bit of anecdotal info - remember when you were asking people to Deemer me when I was about to beat your score?

You are currently an AM at 87th. I am a WM around 104th. I could only keep pace with you (IIRC, you had at least 200 points on me at the end of wave 14) because I was lucky enough to get a Triple. The only way I beat you was that you died early on 16, and I managed to stay alive.

I'd argue that I may not be as good a player as you, but I'm not that bad of a player, and I had to get lucky to beat you. Conversely, you had to suffer some bad luck in the process.

But then better to be lucky than good.

I'm not mad. I'm not saying there's definitely an imbalance. I haven't seen clear evidence either way - but I have seen plenty of anecdotal evidence.

If you want to ignore "skill" and go for amount of play, I think most would agree I spend a lot of time (depending on the weekday, anywhere from 3-6 hours minimum, and almost all day on the weekends) on DC. I think that rates me among the notables ...

Now, playing Devil's Advocate, I will say that Monday, the couple of times I tried to play my AM, I just couldn't catch a break - gave up and switch to my Medic, IIRC (and I have the memory of a gnat sometimes). Coming in at any wave past 11 sucks (particularly when you start nowhere near a Medic and die trying to get to one), where a WM can hit the ground running easy.

For me, my experiences show:

As a (level 100+) WM, I can salvage almost any game. Call that balance, if you want. Don't always top the list, but I've consistently (since like level 50) found myself in the top 5, usually around 3rd.

As an AM, when I'm on, I'm on. Denial 2 keeping my preferred weapon helps mitigate the negative impact of death. For a full map, I'm usually in the top half.

As a Medic, death isn't a big deal as long as I have 10 adren when I die and I spawn near a decent weapon (and preferrably within quick reach of another medic). Usually. Score wise, I don't pay too much attention, except that as of late I've been breaking into the 300's.

And my final thought:

It would be really nice if the score table didn't (only?) show "score", but showed XP gained (and possibly character level).

It would be really nice if the score table didn't (only?) show "score", but showed XP gained (and possibly character level).

I sayed that in my edited post. It would be very cool to have XP as score. Dont know if its possible but it would be definatelly cool and reflect the Game better since XP is directly linked to Damage done.

after 320's nicely written post and pretty much everything that has been talked about lately, i think it kinda comes down to "who do you make the changes for, hardcore player or the casual one?" this is also related to the flak +5 so i feel like it fits here.

basically, i'm kind of stuck between the two sidese when it comes to making decisions/changes on druid's RPG (i mean of course i dont make the last decision, but we talk about it here, dru seems to listen, too) do you remove the flak +5 because that top LA player was kliling everything in sight? wouldn't that palyer do the same with piercing, then protect, then whatever is next? do you remove the flak 5 and take the 100 extra points away from the casual gamer who won't score more than 500 anyways? for the hardcore type, it is a challenge that will be overcome in a day or two with different strats, for the casual one it's less fun knowing you'll be stuck with 500 points and not get 600 anytime soon?

anyone is welcome to comment, you might think it's the wrong PoV in the first place. i'll try to get some answers of mine when i come back.

ck wrote:

after 320's nicely written post and pretty much everything that has been talked about lately, i think it kinda comes down to "who do you make the changes for, hardcore player or the casual one?" this is also related to the flak +5 so i feel like it fits here.

basically, i'm kind of stuck between the two sidese when it comes to making decisions/changes on druid's RPG (i mean of course i dont make the last decision, but we talk about it here, dru seems to listen, too) do you remove the flak +5 because that top LA player was kliling everything in sight? wouldn't that palyer do the same with piercing, then protect, then whatever is next? do you remove the flak 5 and take the 100 extra points away from the casual gamer who won't score more than 500 anyways? for the hardcore type, it is a challenge that will be overcome in a day or two with different strats, for the casual one it's less fun knowing you'll be stuck with 500 points and not get 600 anytime soon?

anyone is welcome to comment, you might think it's the wrong PoV in the first place. i'll try to get some answers of mine when i come back.

There's a place for everyone, casual and competitive. But as casual is the majority, I think the decision making should lean toward that. The good players will adapt to whatever the next best thing is.

(read -my- previous post first, 320 replied between, but it's also about the same topic)
ok, here's what i personally think;

apart from few cases (mentioned later), making changes because of hardcore players doesn't seem too logical to me. the basic idea is that there will always be something the better player will exploit (not the best way to put it but you know what i mean). when flak 5 is gone, it will be piercing, when when piercing is nerfed protection and posion will dominate - and the scores probably won't be much different than before either. not just weapons; when triple consumes more adren, the hardcore player will adjust, making sure they use triple more efficiently (better on/off for example) and still run it through the whole wave like nothing happened. i think most would agree that the advanced player will adjust to pretty much change. (so what are those few cases? - for example the one druid mentioned beofre: this one player had LW and LA skills before they were sepeate classes, scored like crazy so the two classes were seperated.)

i talked about how the hardcore player will adjust, however those changes are (most prbably) still taking palce: triple might be costlier, flak 5s are out and somebody's getting affected by these. the casual gamer (and i don't mean a bad player) will still have his triple running thru wave 14, but, for example, wave 10 will be adren waste for fewer kills now. they will try to get better, yet the idea is that they won't adjust as well/quickly. the flak 5 - which helped a lot to those who can't aim well - will be missed this "casual gamer". however, now the hardcore player will quickly learn to speedswitch between his two fav weps and still get the kill in the same time as a flak 5 - not missed as much.

i can make more examples but i think ppl have got it.
now, just to be clear, i'm not saying anything bad/negative about hardcore or casual gamers.
however, i'm saying that i'm not sure if the changes being made (or possible changes in the future for that matter) necessarily serve their initial purpose. we know flak 5 is going away because people were dominating with it, now the same people will dominate with something else. so the problem isn't actually solved, and the game is even a little harder for the casual gamer. same with triple, good players (and yes, i'm not really referring to lvl here, but more gaming skill) will manage to keep it running even if it consumed +2 adren, they were doing pretty good before anyways. so these changes don't serve their purpose in the end, some might even have opposite effects.

so do we make decisions just for the casual gamers? no. do we ignore the hardcore players and "let them be"? no, but we should also be aware that they will -by definition - find a way around most of the changes directed at them, so one might as well just accept that.

i'm still curious what ppl think about this. i feel like the removal of flak 5 and increasing TD cost will be living proof of good intentions that fail to solve the problem, if not create some.

320 wrote:

There's a place for everyone, casual and competitive. But as casual is the majority, I think the decision making should lean toward that. The good players will adapt to whatever the next best thing is.

don't mean to post the similar things 10 times but 320 posted as i was writing my explanation, so i'll reply;

so my final/ultimate questoin is - 320 and everyone else -, looking at things from this perspective, do you think removing flak 5 will solve the problem? (the problem of the over-powered weapon that made things easier and helped ppl dominate)
will increasing the TD cost really change things around?

well my answer is obvious in the previous post so no more comments.

[KitFox wrote:

]

But, I'm still winning. LOL yes I still win.

Ahem.. not always

Okay, okay.

But not always. And it's probably only cause you're canadian.

A Frite-eatin' Canadian. I bet you wear a beret and you work as a mime and go "oui oui" all the time and drive a Peugeot and watch Amelie over and over and have ten posters of Gerard Depardieu.

Canada needs to get nerfed.

bet you wear a beret and you work as a mime and go "oui oui" all the time and drive a Peugeot and watch Amelie over and over and have ten posters of Gerard Depardieu.

Ohhh My! You just described a French from France... The insult!

[KitFox wrote:

]

bet you wear a beret and you work as a mime and go "oui oui" all the time and drive a Peugeot and watch Amelie over and over and have ten posters of Gerard Depardieu.

Ohhh My! You just described a French from France... The insult!

Canadian, French, they're pretty much the same...

CK, now that medics are on the rise and they are healing people more, players are lasting longer. Therefore the power weapons had to be lowered, or else every map will be won and the game will get stale.

I put myself in the power player catagory, and I have adapted both my LW character (level 339) and my medic character (level 56) to this. Survival of the fitest refers to both skill and adaptability.

I say big deal if we don't get the high scores anymore, as long as we survive the waves I'll be happy (more so if I survive the waves).

I would hope my statement that because we are lasting longer thanks to those fantastic medics the weapons had to be trotteled back a bit will put an end to the questions of why they were thottled back. I hope this addressed your concern, I had a hard time understanding which way you were going.

These changes effect everyone, no one should feel like someone else is gettting the long end of the stick. I would like nothing better than a flak +50, we all would. But things change and we have to accept them with grace. I realize you're just concerned and want to voice your opinion, but the horse is dead and we should bury it. Now let's all get used to the new horse and enjoy the game.

ck wrote:

320 wrote:

There's a place for everyone, casual and competitive. But as casual is the majority, I think the decision making should lean toward that. The good players will adapt to whatever the next best thing is.

don't mean to post the similar things 10 times but 320 posted as i was writing my explanation, so i'll reply;

so my final/ultimate questoin is - 320 and everyone else -, looking at things from this perspective, do you think removing flak 5 will solve the problem? (the problem of the over-powered weapon that made things easier and helped ppl dominate)
will increasing the TD cost really change things around?

well my answer is obvious in the previous post so no more comments.

It's tough to say. But since I have a LW and LA player now, I've reduced my risk exposure through diversification! Hey, it works with mutual funds...

BotFodder wrote:

Skilled LA players:

320 - another bit of anecdotal info - remember when you were asking people to Deemer me when I was about to beat your score?

Okay Bot, I give you props. That deemer thing was obviously just joking, though. You were playing really good that level. And I wasn't playing bad. With LA, I haven't really invested much thought in staying alive on wave 16, so getting smacked down is the norm atm for my LA char on that wave. I had about a 200 point lead, I think, going into 16 and you caught up. Not a bad feeling, eh?

I thought to myself, what's happened? Is this... the end? The end of 320??

I looked over at my lifesize cardboard cutout of Ric Flair and said, "Nature Boy! Tell me what to do!"

So the very next map:

WOOOOOO!

Techwarrior also played fantastically to win the map for us.

Boy, 320 definitely mirrored my feelings. I had debated about stating that some folks are probably being spoiled sports and whining, but I decided not to do so at the time. I know that there are better players out there, and some of them hang out on DC. I also know that there are players who can play much more than the couple of hours each night that I can. So, I have no real problems if Ooo, Fro, Ceps or anybody else for that matter gets a higher score or more XP than me. It all goes down to skill, luck (sometimes you just cannot find the bugs, get the weapon, etc.), playing time (more hours -> more XP -> more levels), levels, etc. to determine the score and XP gained. And I am really playing for the fun. Part of the fun is trying to do the best I can, and improve myself (and hence my scores/xp). But when someone whines/b******/complains about how LA players have such an advantage and how X, Y or Z should be done to nerf them, I think you know by now how much it frobs me off (no twiddle or tweek here). Likewise, I must admit that when Dru talks about LA players being like D&D magic users or what ever, and how using high damage weaps with artifacts to stand toe-to-toe with the bugs just like the LW players is not what he thinks LA players should be doing, I get pretty much the same way, and perhaps more so since there is no other way that the LA player such as myself can get that 10K XP to level up to get the skills we have been looking at getting since starting to play LA.

Now I mentioned whining and folks being spoiled sports, and no doubt some of you are thinking the same of me. But before you do, think about this. If you have been playing a game for months on end, and then the rules are changed, is it being a spoiled sport to speak out, and if need be to do so quite loudly? And if you do still think so, who is more of a spoiled sport, the person who complains about "ohh gee, I am loosing, let's change the rules to make it so that I can win" or the person who complains about the rules being changed??

As for BotFodder getting 2500+ XP for his level 100 LW...I wish I were getting that much. My really good maps may be aproaching that, but my norm is probably near 1500 right now. Have to check to see what it has been, since I have screen shots for almost every game over the past few months, both the F1 and F3 screens, along with a screen showing XP. But I will also note that between levels 98 and my current 107, I am seeing a transition point. My scores are nearly double what they were back around level 95 or so, and approaching what they were as a LW player back around level 60 or so.

As for my thoughts on will this nerfing change or fix things...Nope. Regardless of whether the triple and flak/rl are nerfed or entirely removed, it will at best just make it so that some other trick/gimmick is the "over-powered" choice, then people will whine about it, it will get nerfed and we repeat the process. But I expect this will get about as much attention as my warnings about this very thing and a few others back on day 1 of RPG on the DC server. And if the problem is that we are always winning the maps, well, we could add more waves and kick the level up until we do not do so.

BTW...why am I not a contributor, given that I started playing on this server on day 1, after BDB's server went belly up? Well, first is the fact that we are still trying to recover economically, even after 18 months of emplyment, after having been laid off for a year. Then there is the fact that there are times that we end up with perhaps too many folks on the server. And lastly, these repeated nerfings, among other things, have been taking away from my fun.

But hey, it is Dru and Shan's server, and they do what they want, and if I don't like it, I will go play elsewhere.

I'm not wanting to get in the middle of an argument but if anyone is scoring 1000 + I don't see how they could complain about getting a low score. I know 10k is a lot to level up (it takes me about a month at 8800 or so) but I average 300 - 400 per game depending who is on

Anyways with a score of 1000 on a map your probably getting more like 1200 - 1500 XP at least once bonuses and damage points are factored in. I don't know maybe I'll be scoring that high someday but at level 61 scores like that are a ways off for me.

Anyways with a score of 1000 on a map your probably getting more like 1200 - 1500 XP

Quickfoot 5 makes an incredible difference with this double XP thing.

Right now a Score of 1000+ is around 3000 xp, because of Multikills