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320

Wicked Sick!

Joined: 10/11/2005 21:28:38
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BotFodder wrote:
Given this post ...

I'm almost ready to agree with Mystic on the Triple issue (not Flak 5 though) - but not like he originally specified. It is of no surprise to me that you're outscoring WMs - as you say, you can run the triple a lot more than pretty much any WM ever could.

The triple can throw off the balance quite a bit - but not in favor of a WM, but in favor of the AM. Add the usual 3+ Medics that are on and you're good to go (for at least the first 12-14 waves) - any benefit a WM might get from vamp is nullified.

Really, it's been my experience so far that the only time a WM can really run a triple constantly is against Warlords, Queens, and Titans ... and with Warlords, you probably loose out a bit on adren. Queens can throw things off if they throw up a shield. 


Well, Bot, I got a little braggy in my post. WMs have other advantages, though. It's a grass is always greener kind of thing. I described those advantages in detail in the strat thread. The big one is that LW have a lot more options when it comes to combo-kills. The vast majority of players don't understand the concept of 'agro' or the importance of concentrating as much dmg as possible into the smallest time window, so they don't bother with combo'ing.

Another one is that vamp allows you to play super-aggresive. You need around vamp 6 or 7 but then you can really stay in the monster's face.

Edit: Also, take a look at the current high score table and look how close the scores are. It may be that a few hundred points really do seperate the classes but that would still only be about 10%, really nothing worth worrying about. Player skill is still king by far.
Fro13

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yeah, I wouldn't worry about it bot. If you start seeing LA players regularly scoring outragous scores, then I would start to worry. I have't seen that happening yet. So, I have no worries. Although, get a good comboing LA player with all the weapons on a good map with a good medic following and you got some room for destruction. I don't see that happening very often though.

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TheElectrician

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Being a (mid-level) LA player, let me throw in my .02

First, I agree 150% that player skill is indeed king. Having a plethera of skills at high levels helps tremendously, but I regularly see lower level players putting up some respectable scores.

I have chosen a somewhat unusual path for spending my skill points. I focused first on the basic bonuses (damage red., health, etc.) with the exception of max ammo and adren. I maxed out the other bonuses while picking up LA lvl. 1 and Energy Leech 1 along the way.

A player of decent skill can fill up his adren meter pretty quickly, and it hasn't been a problem for me yet, so I haven't bothered with increasing Leech. Maxing weapon speed helps with this too.

Next, I went straight to getting Denial 3. This is the LA player's next best thing to LW.
Since the flak is my best friend most of the time, I'm going to split my future skill points between getting cautiousness and adren max.

I think I do pretty well on putting up decent scores considering my current skills (or lack thereof).

I enjoy this class quite a bit, and it still holds tons of potential.

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BotFodder

Wicked Sick!
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Couple of things - so get ready for a long BotFodder post:

First, having played a little bit of BB (BotBooster) and gotten him established, I took 320's advice for starting points, perhaps with some modification ...

Started off getting the LA 2, Drip 1, Leech 2. Then my goal was to get my MaxAmmo up to 50 and get Resupply, as well as get MaxAd up to 150 ... I've gotten those by 23. I'm saving for Denial 2 (which I will purchase at 26 - the requirement being that you be level 25). The long term goals involve, in roughly this order:

  • WS maxed, with some points into HB. Once both are at 50, Denial 3 (lvl 40).
  • Next it's mainly a road to max HB, with some points thrown into DB (but only to 10) and other points saved for LA 3 (lvl 51).
  • 5 points will be dropped into DR during the continued maxing of HB (done at 55), and then Awareness (which I don't have on any characters yet but that everyone who I've talked to who does have it says is the bomb) (lvl 57).

    I should be getting Resupply 2 in there somewhere - perhaps while working on DB. I think it would be less of a need if I've gotten two or three weapons I can work with rather than relying on just the flak like I tend to with my WM.

    Whoa! Now with that out of the way, one of the things I wanted to start a debate about is the Double Magic Modifier and the Triple Damage. When would you use the DMM over the Triple? Kit found a possibly worthy case when playing with a QuickFoot weapon. I once argued (but realized others were right) that you could get a 17% chance to instajib if you used it with a Maxed+1 Vorp (but you'd want the damage for XP rather than just outright gibbing the target). Maybe if you had an Avril of Force, to get the shots to go faster ... but nahh, how often does a AM get an Avril?

    I think the only other case where it's truly useful (and again, Kit found it) was with a Protection Maxed+1. While your DMM is running it's a +10, and you've got the equivalent of a Globe running but with the extra damage (not quite at the Triple level) that a Prot 10 would do (but it's only really 10% more, as Prots only do 1% more damage per +). If you've mastered running two artifacts at a time, the easier way to beat it would be to run both the Triple and Globe ... my current keybindings make it an Olympic event to do so. I run an MX1000 mouse, and have the 3 thumb buttons set up for paging backwards and forwards through my artifacts and throwing (space activates). Thing is, the easy button to hit is the one set for "forward". "Throw" can be a bit dicey, and "back" is so far forward that I practically have to take my hand off my mouse ...

    I know folks suggest the other keys around the direction keys (I'm an SEDF man, with A for jump, C for crouch, V for voice, and then weapons/translocator around those). But since I play my LW, being able to move through weapons more easily is just as important as navigating my artifacts ...

    I might take another look at my layout ... maybe I can relocate a few things to reposition "forward" and "back" around the movement keys (like R and W, which are currently "flak" and "sniper") and not have it negatively impact my ability to switch weapons ...

    Okay, enough babbling!

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    [KitFox]

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    Joined: 11/25/2005 07:59:59
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    WS maxed, with some points into HB. Once both are at 50, Denial 3 (lvl 40).
     


    Maybe i will shock people by saying this, but i dont think Denial 3 is a good idea.

    It takes 15+20+20 = 55 skill points!

    I did not buy Denial and now i dont regret it. Yes its harder, but those 55 skill points = 110 more Health. Wich gets you closer to Ghost.
    Once you have Ghost 2, you most likelly gonna find your Denial worthless because you wont die (well not very often).
    And right now with Medic class, 110 Health REALLY worth it!!

    Plus: When you die, your weapon can be taken by someone. You cannot even imagine how cool it is to get 2 Flaks when someone die

    Edit:
    As for my Key Bindings
    Space: Jump
    Z-X : Navigates artifact
    WSAD : Movement
    Q : Translocator
    E : Activate Artifact
    \ : Throw weapon
    ' : Throw artifact
    R : Best Weapon (Flak, Mini, Shock, Link)
    Additionnal Mouse buttons for instant access to : Sniper, Super Weapon, Enter Vehicule.

    My current problem you guessed it, The Navigate Artifact. Boy do i hate this. I may reconfigure them to use: Previous [2], Next [3].

    I still dream of being able to have a Insta Artifact activation button. Would it be possible to bind a script that rotate to the specified artifact and activate it? VorTeX?
    BotFodder

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    I've thought about this ... but then you gotta max your DR before you can get to Ghost! And I won't be shooting for that until a bit later.

    Still ... I will think about it some. I got a while to go before it really becomes an issue; I've become a convert to the "Mini School of Medics" and should be able to move my Medic up a bit faster than he was going.

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    Szlat

    Wicked Sick!

    Joined: 05/18/2005 18:32:41
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    BotFodder wrote:
    ..... When would you use the DMM over the Triple?  

    I like to double up a poison mini, especially on Titan waves. Convert it to a +8, spray all the titans you can see, then convert back to a +4. Doesn't use a lot of adrenaline, as it is only doubled for a few seconds, but does some serious damage.

    1.3^(8-1)*0.05 = 30% current health damage, for 4 seconds - getting towards 700 damage per titan.
    BotFodder

    Wicked Sick!
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    Coolness! I have a fondness for poison weapons.

    If it actually does set the poison up to do double, that's too cool. Can anyone (Dru, Vortex, KohanX) who's had experience with the code verify?

    I've gotten the most recent version of the mod decompiled in order to look at a few things (really just stat costs, mainly). I might be able to verify it myself ...

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    320

    Wicked Sick!

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    55 extra stat points would be nice, definately. I guess you could go both ways. Part of it is definately your skill and play style. If you tend to die a lot, denial 3 is much more valuable. Even with 100 health bonus I tend to die 2 or 3 times per 16 waves. For my style of play, if I don't die once in awhile, I'm not playing hard enough.

    As for useful double magic stuff, there's quickfoot of course. Also, Kit discovered the protection use. There's also Poison. I posted the math that a poison 10 would do. Such a beast would come in handy on ONS maps (with tons of titans) and when the server isn't killing stuff in fractions of a second (i.e. non-peak times).

    With all the exp stuff going on, I was playing on morpheos recently and doubled a poison 4 shock. On the money waves I was just tagging as much as I could see, and then doing a second round when I ran out of stuff to shoot at. If there's ever an exp scoreboard, this will probably be a more popular combo.

    For keybindings, I always describe mine as WASD, since people know what that is. But it's actually RSDF. I injured my back a long time ago and RSDF is much more "ergonomic". It doesn't require torquing your wrist, and therefore pinching the muscles in your upper-middle back between your shoulder blades.

    It's also right on the home keys (if you know how to type properly). No sliding the keyboard around for the arrow keys or anything like that.
    [KitFox]

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    If it actually does set the poison up to do double, that's too cool. Can anyone (Dru, Vortex, KohanX) who's had experience with the code verify?
     


    Check Druid RPG section, we had a very big discussion on this.
    BotFodder

    Wicked Sick!
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    320 wrote:
    For keybindings, I always describe mine as WASD, since people know what that is. But it's actually RSDF. 

    I guess mine would more accurately be called ESDF then. I'm on the home keys like you ... just that I'm so used to having my wrist to where my index finger hits the E (and it's how I was taught to type) that R would be ... unnatural for me.

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    320

    Wicked Sick!

    Joined: 10/11/2005 21:28:38
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    Szlat wrote:

    BotFodder wrote:
    ..... When would you use the DMM over the Triple?  

    I like to double up a poison mini, especially on Titan waves. Convert it to a +8, spray all the titans you can see, then convert back to a +4. Doesn't use a lot of adrenaline, as it is only doubled for a few seconds, but does some serious damage.

    1.3^(8-1)*0.05 = 30% current health damage, for 4 seconds - getting towards 700 damage per titan.
     


    I believe it was tested and determined that the double-poison effect will only be present if you keep the DMM going. I haven't tested this myself, though.
    [KitFox]

    Dominating
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    I believe it was tested and determined that the double-poison effect will only be present if you keep the DMM going. I haven't tested this myself, though.
     


    The effect will be the one you have hit the mob with.

    So even if you stop the DMM, effect will still be +10.

    V0rTeX confirmed here:
    http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/0/1838.page
    ck

    Killing Spree

    Joined: 01/20/2006 17:28:27
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    i will take a different perspective than a lot of people on DMM. i still think it's just not useful looking at it generally, and i'll try to explain that. i know DMM gets useful when you have that 20-22 instagib shock rifle, or when you have an +8 poison with 3(5-8?) titans around you (btw, i'm not convinced with the protection +10 argument, you could just run globe, or use triple +75% reduction you would get with max DR). but i'll go ahead and say that overall triple damage is superior to DMM in pretty much every way. first off, anyone can pick up a triple if they are lucky, with good players this happens nearly every map. so it's available to anyone. now think of a piercing +6 flak, a weapon with no stars, you can hand it out. with max damage bonus and a triple, you will deal very close to 500 damage per shot. now i did some calculations, basically trying to compare the total damage you would do over a given period of time and if i'm not mistaken with RoFs, the values for the damage of +20 vorpal shock, triple piercing and +8 posion mini are pretty close (say, when you are facing 3-4 titans, correct me if i'm wrong). So you're comparing an availble-to-everyone weapon plus an artifact that is most likely available to high level players at level 14, to a vorpal weapon (rare) or a poison weapon (not so rare, but can't share) plus a fast-adrenalin draining artifact and they end up with similar damages. Also, about half of the other magic weapons are still useless with DMM (infinity, piercing etc) whereas Triple Damage turns anything into a beast.

    i wrote this because i can see how people are trying to figure out (and figuring out) situations where you could use DMM but it feels like a waste of time. DMM is not as useful as it should be right now, Triple damage beats it pretty much at everything. And i know that it was meant to help with only few things, but it doesn't do that so well either, the overall damages seem to be close.

    soon the triple will be more costly and less available, but I still don't see DMM getting more important. maybe making it considerably cheaper (cheaper than the current triple) and then it might be an option to consider. Right now as it is, i wouldn't mind if it wasn't available at all.
    320

    Wicked Sick!

    Joined: 10/11/2005 21:28:38
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    [KitFox wrote:
    ]

    I believe it was tested and determined that the double-poison effect will only be present if you keep the DMM going. I haven't tested this myself, though.
     


    The effect will be the one you have hit the mob with.

    So even if you stop the DMM, effect will still be +10.

    V0rTeX confirmed here:
    http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/0/1838.page

     


    Good to know. Hurray discussion board!
     
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