Engineers and Turrets

As I mentioned in a different thread, I have concerns about Engineers linking to turrets.

To me, I have the feeling it is too easy for the linkers. The boosted turret gets a really high score, and the xp gets shared amoungst the linkers. One example posted showed 3 players getting over 12000xp between them - and two of the players were under level 50.
It is easy xp for little effort and little risk. And it means low level engineers are levelling much too fast.

So, I think I need to do something. But what?

Possibilities:

At the moment, a linker doubles the damage done by the turret, and gets half the xp. We could make this just +60% extra, and give the linker 6/16ths of the xp. So the guy in the turret still gets his full xp, which has to happen as he is not able to stop people linking. This way will make it not quite so profitable for linkers.

Instead of a static 60%, adjust the bonus according to the engineer linking. So an engineer with weapon speed 0 DB 0 will not boost as much as an engineer with maxed weapon speed and DB. This way, low levels will get less benefit from linking. However, it doesn't take many levels to max DB and WS, and it drastically increases the complexity of the calculations

Adjust the benefit independently as above, but this time base on level of Loaded Engineer. So a linker with Loaded Engineer 15 will provide more benefit than a linker with LE 1

When a turret gets hit, there is a short period of time when the linkers do not get xp as they are healing the turret. We could increase this dead time. However, the person in the turret still gets xp even though the linkers are not, even though they are helping him, which seems a little unfair.

Perhaps some of the turret damage ought to be passed to the linkers?

Perhaps we put a max of 2 linkers per turret?

Perhaps we say an engineers sentinels do not fire while his engineer link beam is active?

Other thoughts?
Am I alone in this concern?

thats a good point, howeverthere are some observations.

linkers gain exp according DB.

but im unsure if the turret gain damage according to DB or by linkers.

# Instead of a static 60%, adjust the bonus according to the engineer linking. So an engineer with weapon speed 0 DB 0 will not boost as much as an engineer with maxed weapon speed and DB. This way, low levels will get less benefit from linking. However, it doesn't take many levels to max DB and WS, and it drastically increases the complexity of the calculations
# Adjust the benefit independently as above, but this time base on level of Loaded Engineer. So a linker with Loaded Engineer 15 will provide more benefit than a linker with LE 1

i like this idea

Perhaps we put a max of 2 linkers per turret?

that idea, well i dont share it.. just picture the ammount of fight for linking turret.. how is decided who link and who dosent?

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

linkers gain exp according DB.

but im unsure if the turret gain damage according to DB or by linkers.

Turrets currently gain damage by linkers. All linkers are equal provided they are engineers.

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

Perhaps we put a max of 2 linkers per turret?

that idea, well i dont share it.. just picture the ammount of fight for linking turret.. how is decided who link and who dosent?

Good point.

•At the moment, a linker doubles the damage done by the turret, and gets half the xp. We could make this just +60% extra, and give the linker 6/16ths of the xp. So the guy in the turret still gets his full xp, which has to happen as he is not able to stop people linking. This way will make it not quite so profitable for linkers

An alternative would be to let the first linker add +75% damage, the second linker add +50% and the third linker adding +25%, with all subsequent linkers not adding to the damage. Max damage for the turret would thus be 100%+75%+50%+25% = 2.5 times damage.

Another thing I am not keen on is the use of offensive vs defensive sentinels relating to turret linking.

Consider the situation where we have a base with a turret and some engineers linking.
Now some of the engineers will spawn defensive sentinels near the turret, so save the turret getting hit so much - everyone benefits.
Other engineers - sometimes the one in the turret, sometimes one of the linkers - spawns an offensive sentinel elsewhere. He gets the benefit of the other players' defensive sentinels, but hogs his offensive points to himself.
So the selfish player gets a higher score than those deploying defensive sentinels.

It doesn't seem right to me. Suggestions anyone?

true, turret get power by linkers, but likers get XP by DB.

Szlat wrote:

Another thing I am not keen on is the use of offensive vs defensive sentinels relating to turret linking.

Consider the situation where we have a base with a turret and some engineers linking.
Now some of the engineers will spawn defensive sentinels near the turret, so save the turret getting hit so much - everyone benefits.
Other engineers - sometimes the one in the turret, sometimes one of the linkers - spawns an offensive sentinel elsewhere. He gets the benefit of the other players' defensive sentinels, but hogs his offensive points to himself.
So the selfish player gets a higher score than those deploying defensive sentinels.

It doesn't seem right to me. Suggestions anyone?

about that... well im so angry when someone just link and he dosent put at least 1 def sentinel.. i mean its ok if you put a light sent and a def sent. its ok.. but when they "share" no sentinel.. thats really selfish! that should be punished!

•At the moment, a linker doubles the damage done by the turret, and gets half the xp. We could make this just +60% extra, and give the linker 6/16ths of the xp. So the guy in the turret still gets his full xp, which has to happen as he is not able to stop people linking. This way will make it not quite so profitable for linkers

An alternative would be to let the first linker add +75% damage, the second linker add +50% and the third linker adding +25%, with all subsequent linkers not adding to the damage. Max damage for the turret would thus be 100%+75%+50%+25% = 2.5 times damage.

then again. who is the first linker? and who is the last? im seeing people using links to unlink the first person and put them selves in the "exp" situation

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

true, turret get power by linkers, but linkers get XP by DB.

Not at the moment.
The damage done by the turret depends on the DB of the turret driver, and the number of linkers. The xp is then split equally between all involved.

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

then again. who is the first linker? and who is the last? im seeing people using links to unlink the first person and put them selves in the "exp" situation

No sorry, I am not suggesting we have a first linker and a second linker. I am suggesting

turret alone - 100% damage done. All xp to turret driver

turret plus one linker. 175% damage done. Turret driver gets 4/7 of the xp, linker gets 3/7 of the xp

turret plus 2 linkers. 225% damage done. Turret driver gets 4/9 of the xp, both linkers get 5/18 of the xp

turret plus 3 linkers. 250% damage. Turret driver gets 4/10 of the xp. Each linker gets 2/10 of the xp.

turret plus 4 linkers. 250% damage. Turret driver gets 4/10 of the xp. Each linker gets 3/20 of the xp.

turret plus 5 linkers. 250% damage. Turret driver gets 4/10 of the xp. Each linker gets 3/25 of the xp.
... and so on.

Szlat wrote:

turret alone - 100% damage done. All xp to turret driver

turret plus one linker. 175% damage done. Turret driver gets 4/7 of the xp, linker gets 3/7 of the xp

turret plus 2 linkers. 225% damage done. Turret driver gets 4/9 of the xp, both linkers get 5/18 of the xp

turret plus 3 linkers. 250% damage. Turret driver gets 4/10 of the xp. Each linker gets 2/10 of the xp.

turret plus 4 linkers. 250% damage. Turret driver gets 4/10 of the xp. Each linker gets 3/20 of the xp.

turret plus 5 linkers. 250% damage. Turret driver gets 4/10 of the xp. Each linker gets 3/25 of the xp.
... and so on.

i REALLY like this idea! it might hurt my style since well 250% its not great ( ball does 55? if i recall right, meaning.. not that good damage), however you know what if thats underpower. you can reverse the nerf..

i just hope druid gets more often

now.. as you said. there should be reward for def sentinels.. i still dont know what the reward could be.. but thats a must.

The xp is then split equally between all involved.

sorry to say it. but thats wrong.. and if you want we can try one day, so you can see with your own eyes that XP its not equally divided.

Szlat wrote:

Another thing I am not keen on is the use of offensive vs defensive sentinels relating to turret linking.

Consider the situation where we have a base with a turret and some engineers linking.
Now some of the engineers will spawn defensive sentinels near the turret, so save the turret getting hit so much - everyone benefits.
Other engineers - sometimes the one in the turret, sometimes one of the linkers - spawns an offensive sentinel elsewhere. He gets the benefit of the other players' defensive sentinels, but hogs his offensive points to himself.
So the selfish player gets a higher score than those deploying defensive sentinels.

It doesn't seem right to me. Suggestions anyone?

Eh, I'm one of those that will spawn an offensive sent first, then when I have time, I'll spawn a defensive sent. True, I get the "benefit" of the kills by the the offensive sent (what little they are), but the turret operator and the linkers still get some benefit from the offensive sent as it protects them from the small monsters, i.e. pupae/red flies/etc. while they are linking. At the same time, I'm also building (when I have time) fortifications to help protect linkers, expecially when we are on a "fall-off" map.

As to the number of linkers, I would limit the number to 3 linkers, all gaining XP accordingly to their respective levels. Thus a level 5 would get less than a level 15 who would get less than a level 25. Please do not tie the abilities to the linking.

Well I dont like to depend too much on people and I prefer to solo,Sometimes I have linked to turrets and the exp is not bad but is divided between engineers, with this new nerf people will stop linking to turrets and will be soloing as most of the classes.
What I would like to add is to create new skills IF u like to depend on turrets or IF u like to fix things.

Example I´ve seen people that fix my vehicles or sents when they are low on health, they dont get any reward by doing that but they really help me in the hard times and I really apretiate that.

So If the concern is getting lots of exp for low levels while they are linking, would be nice to create a skill that allows to get exp from linking turrets.

Example:

Turret damage helper: Help your turret comrade boosting his power and get exp while doing so, each level adds 10% of exp gained from the turret comrade, max lvl 10, you have to be lv 60 to max it out.

Engineer Fixer : Help your comrades healing their sents, vehicles and turrets when they are damaged. Each level gives 10% of exp for healing turrets, sents and vehicles. Level max is 10. (This skill is like the Monster/Medic exp skill but applied to vehicles this will encourage engineers to help other engineers and getting a reward doing so.

MAybe this will help, I dunno just my 2 cents =)

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

The xp is then split equally between all involved.

sorry to say it. but thats wrong.. and if you want we can try one day, so you can see with your own eyes that XP its not equally divided.

In my understanding, the turret driver will get the most xp. But all the linkers should get the same xp as each other.
DB of the linkers will not affect it. Weapon speed may slightly, due to the timing of working out who is linking - but any engineer over level 20 ought to have maxed weapon speed.

How do you see the xp divided?

by DB.. and in this i really know for sure thats how is divided.. DB does affect your EXP when linking.. i know because i used to link a lot..(if you ask, everytime i saw elite i used to change to my eng. thats why i know) WS im not sure if it affect, since that was the first thing i maxed. (back in those days, i didnt knew that link gave EXP..)but my DB was really low, then one day i put some points in DB and i got more exp, then i maxed DB..

if not, try to look up for some elite or joe's highscores, in romra, where many engs came in... you will se that EXP was not divided equally

here is paycheck stadistics
Paycheck_Take2's RPG Statistics
Level 46
Total Exp 97279
Next Level 6010/6731
Weapon Speed 50
Health Bonus 20
Max Adrenaline 100
Attack Bonus 75
Damage Reduction 0
AmmoMax 25
Points Available 20

here are adair stadistics

Level 51
Total Exp 130305
Next Level 4007/7432
Weapon Speed 50
Health Bonus 50
Max Adrenaline 100
Attack Bonus 80
Damage Reduction 0
AmmoMax 0
Points Available 5

both have WS at 50 (maxed), but adair have maxxed DB, while pay not.. thats why Adair got 292 more exp-- now kills were not a factor.. since both killed 59 and 5, and both used def sent..

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

both have WS at 50 (maxed), but adair have maxxed DB, while pay not.. thats why Adair got 292 more exp-- now kills were not a factor.. since both killed 59 and 5, and both used def sent..

I think the situation is not that straight forward.

Firstly, I looked at Adair's stats yesterday, and they were only level 49, now they are level 51 - has Adair spent any of the additional points on weapon speed since the screen shot?

If Paycheck2 and Adair did not have any sentinels deployed, did not kill anyone, and both constantly linked to the turret with not a half second pause, then the comparison is valid. However, in this case

it might be that Adairs defense sentinel was better positioned and so scored more xp

Adair scored more than Paycheck, but then got score deducted for dying. How much xp you get for your kills depends on if you get a multi-kill bonus etc.

We know Adair died at least once. Adair might have died 10 times, so in fact may have scored a lot more points from kills

It might be Paycheck spent more time healing the defense sentinels, and so losing out on the xp during that time

if a difference of 5 on DB gives a benefit of 292 xp, then a difference of 80 would give 292*16 = 4672. Are you suggesting an engineer with DB 80 will get 4672 xp more than an engineer DB 0? Unlikely, since Adair did not get 4672 xp.

The code in the Energy turret (the others are the same) is as follows:
Code:

 xp_each = xp_diff / (DruidEnergyTurret(Instigator).Healers.length+1);

and that xp_each is then added to each of the linkers ( and taken off the driver). xp_diff is the difference in xp for the driver between before the shot hits and after. The xp is not calculated for each linker. It is calculated once, then the same value added.

@Turret linking:
I think the simplest solution would be to limit the bonus to 2 additional linkers. I find it a problem when 1 turret and 5+ linkers can wipe out an entire wave of titans.
Make a queue to determine who provides/gets bonuses. eg:
player A and B link a turret and get xp. Player C comes along and links up, but doesn't boost the power, nor gets xp. Player A stops linking for a bit to heal his/her own spawns. Player C now gets xp, and boosts the turret. Player A links back up, but now has to wait for B or C to stop before he/she gets xp again.

A different approach would be to only give a normal boost/ exp sharing while healing the turret. A smaller boost/bonus when the turret is fully healed. The reasoning behind this is that an engineer that heals another teammate in a turret is not able to get xp from killing.

@ offensive/defensive sents:
1: This is why def sents give xp now.
2: Higher level players typically provide 1 of each.
3: How is having an offensive sent out any different than having a medic spawning monsters, and hiding in a base?
4: I find that greed is what makes the game interesting. The game should be difficult when players don't play as a team. If a player is crowding a base (attracting monsters) and not contributing to defense, they are only preventing the longevity of the base.
Whenever the last def sent is destroyed, the base will follow soon.

player A and B link a turret and get xp. Player C comes along and links up, but doesn't boost the power, nor gets xp. Player A stops linking for a bit to heal his/her own spawns. Player C now gets xp, and boosts the turret. Player A links back up, but now has to wait for B or C to stop before he/she gets xp again.

that might not be a good idea. since let say 3 players are linking, then player C get in the way of player A so he lose link.. and he gain link