Extreme WM Report

As I do believe the Extreme AM class is now balanced, just needing a few extra artifacts which will not alter the balance I decided to start one on the WM. So I was reading some old posts on the forums, how better else to learn than to study the past. And I came across a post made by a player called Vortex whom no longer plays. I think his idea in this new subclass could balance things out.

He mentioned a double magic weapon, which in case the name doesn't give the hint, it means a weapon with two magical properties added simultaneously. This could be loaded Weapons 7, where all weapons have this ability added. Of course the Advanced damage bonus the current WM posses might need to be cut at least either to level 5 or perhaps not even have that ability due to this new skill.

Also to increase this classes uniqueness, as I am stubborn and like how the subclasses are rare in their own ways, why not add a third super weapon? Like the vortex which was originally suggested for the AM's. This could be loaded Weapons 8.

I would say this is enough to make the subclass balanced at least where it should be since it does not have a rod of any type, but why not increase the number of mines the mine layer can deploy from 2 perhaps to 4 or 6? And also to compensate for the changes, reduce the vamparism a level or two. Level 15 is not really necessary as we do not have a vast amount of health which requires that much vamparism.

would giving the XWM (extremeWM) a triple throw off the balance ?
or the ability to +1 one weapon
The berserker is a fun class as even a protection Flak is powerful with it
but the XWM doesn't seem to be Extreme
What if all your weapons were vanilla as they do the highest damage (excluding piercing bonus)

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

would giving the XWM (extremeWM) a triple throw off the balance ?

Not necessarily, if You nerf the advanced damage bonus the WM normally get, the added bonus from the triple should be fair. The magical properties would give just about the same damage that the current advanced damage bonus gives, except with 1 more magical property in it.

if memory serves correct it has been suggested before to incress the number of mines but their set to the map and that controls the number of mines

Elite wrote:

He mentioned a double magic weapon, which in case the name doesn't give the hint, it means a weapon with two magical properties added simultaneously. This could be loaded Weapons 7, where all weapons have this ability added. Of course the Advanced damage bonus the current WM posses might need to be cut at least either to level 5 or perhaps not even have that ability due to this new skill.

I like the idea, null, energy, vamp, piercing, freezing weps. When do we implement this?

dom60 wrote:

if memory serves correct it has been suggested before to incress the number of mines but their set to the map and that controls the number of mines

I plan to have this finished soon. Been pretty busy. I don't get a lot of UT time to mess with it. Don't think I will this valentines day either.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have a feeling this is going to be a difficult one to get right - for a variety of reasons.

Elite wrote:

....a double magic weapon, which in case the name doesn't give the hint, it means a weapon with two magical properties added simultaneously. ...

The idea of weapons with multiple magical properties has a lot of history. I have suggested it before to Druid, and he has rejected the idea. In the context of the Extreme WM, he may accept it - but it needs his clearance before continuing. As an aside, I am not sure that an extreme fighter class should be looking for more magic to improve the class - in the past, the double magic weapons have been suggested for the AM not the WM.

Elite wrote:

Also to increase this classes uniqueness, as I am stubborn and like how the subclasses are rare in their own ways, why not add a third super weapon? Like the vortex which was originally suggested for the AM's. This could be loaded Weapons 8.

It is possible. However, super weapons are of limited benefit - exactly how often do WMs use both their existing ones in each wave? For the duration of the fire it will help, but it will not help for the rest of the wave - so apart from say 5 kills, it will not improve the score - how many kills are Extreme WMs getting from superweapons at the moment? Add half again. I might be more in favour of giving them resupply on their superweapons instead.

Elite wrote:

......why not increase the number of mines the mine layer can deploy from 2 perhaps to 4 or 6?

I know greg11 is working on that. However, you have to remember that Druid limited the mines from 8 down to 2 as some players were hiding and spamming mines. I understand the use of mines to protect the WMs back, but the risk will be that it will tempt some players to hide, dropping mines from a safe spot. Level 200s might not, but once it is opened up to level 100s, I am sure somebody will. So, again, only if Druid explicitly says yes - and I wouldn't hold my breath.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

would giving the XWM (extremeWM) a triple throw off the balance ?

Again I am not sure making the XWMs more adrenaline reliant is the way to go.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

or the ability to +1 one weapon

There are 2 forms of +1. The artifact like the AM has for taking a weapon past it's normal maximum. This is AM territory, and is already available to the WM/AM hybrid.
Alternatively, we could add a +1 artifact (single use) that permanently adds +1 to a weapon, so one more than what it currently is. Have these spawned by luck weapons and monsters dying as other artifacts are. WMs by their nature get most opportunity to pick up monster droppings, so it would tend to help WMs most. We could spawn an XWM with say two of these so they can adjust their weapons. But again it is making the XWM better by improving their magic use, which I am not sure about.

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

What if all your weapons were vanilla as they do the highest damage (excluding piercing bonus)

Now I like this thought. Have LW7 starting with all weapons Damage+5, so doing 50% extra damage, and allow XWMs to purchase a piercing ability so it works with all weapons. Then if we allow the +1 artifact as well, it will let the XWMs do more damage, without making them more magic-dependent (as damage isnt quite the same as the other magics like vampire, null entropy etc.)

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

What if all your weapons were vanilla as they do the highest damage (excluding piercing bonus)

Now I like this thought. Have LW7 starting with all weapons Damage+5, so doing 50% extra damage, and allow XWMs to purchase a piercing ability so it works with all weapons. Then if we allow the +1 artifact as well, it will let the XWMs do more damage, without making them more magic-dependent (as damage isnt quite the same as the other magics like vampire, null entropy etc.)

NOW that sounds INTERESTING!!!

For what my opinion is worth, I like all of the ideas but the LW7 with +5 Damage etc sounds the most interesting.

I have yet to spend a lot of time with the EWM as I am currently addicted to Berzerker but I will give it a try soon.

I rarely use the super weapons, but that's just me.

The multi-magic weapons sounds intriguing as well (null+3/piercing+3 flak would be awesome) but as fun as that sounds, might be a little over the top, maybe combine that with some damage, like the rage weaps, just so players like me don't kill everything in sight with a single weap.

Szlat wrote:

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

What if all your weapons were vanilla as they do the highest damage (excluding piercing bonus)
Now I like this thought. Have LW7 starting with all weapons Damage+5, so doing 50% extra damage, and allow XWMs to purchase a piercing ability so it works with all weapons. Then if we allow the +1 artifact as well, it will let the XWMs do more damage, without making them more magic-dependent (as damage isnt quite the same as the other magics like vampire, null entropy etc.)

There are some issues with going down this route

If the weapons start at Damage+5, just how high are we going to let them go with the +1s? +5 is already probably overpowered, so what is the point of the +1s

I believe the piercing weapon to be overpowered at +30%. If piercing is implemented the same way, then at +50% these weapons will be overpowered

If everything is potentially maxed at the start, and all weapons are the same type, what has the XWM got to work for? Not artifacts or better weapons - its just play as you are all game, which could be a tad boring. (Except for the killing part)

So, some possible thoughts.

Have a new type of weapon just for the XWMs - essentially a damage weapon with a piercing sort of effect

The XWM starts with all weapons of this type, with the modifier set to +2. Each + gives 10% extra damage

Have +1 artifacts spawned by dying monsters. These can up any weapon by +1, until it reaches it maximum +1. So the XWMs could up these weapons to +6, if they get enough +1s

Being limited to just the one weapon type, it does need to have a piercing type effect otherwise they would stand no chance in later waves. At the moment the piercing code checks if more damage is done with or without the piercing effect, and takes that and adds on the 30%. I propose for these weapons they always ignore DB/DR, and so always do original damage +10%*modifier. This stops the weapons being excessively powerful in the early waves when low levels are on - at the moment the piercing in wave 1 gives +30% on top of the up to +35% from DB/DR

These weapons would obviously not be shareable, and would be limited to the XWMs

If we wanted, we could make the + artifacts a bit more random. So most do +1, some do +0, some do -1, some do +2 etc.? And you do not know until you use it

One alternative would be to link the piercing effect to the modifier as well. So a +1 weapon is a bit piercing, and a +6 is completely piercing. However, I think I prefer the simpler just ignore the DB/DR for this weapon.
So for this subclass it is not about the magic at all, just using weapons to kill.

Got 1 question. The +1 artifact. Can be taken by any player or just xwm?

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

Got 1 question. The +1 artifact. Can be taken by any player or just xwm?

Good question!!

The +1 ability may make things too complicated maybe you can give the XWM a piercing ability
that way the XWM can still share weapons but , not the piercing ability (unless the have a piercing weapon), so they would in effect have a +1 to their weapons but the weapons would not have to change.
this will maintain their damage/killing potential but still have a "randomness" to their weapons

I think the +1 ability could replace the max ability and max+1 ability.

There are so many ways implement it. Such as:
The highest modifier a player can max a weapon to would be determined by the class and level of the player.
Lower the dren requirement to something like 50 dren per level. Or make it non linear like:
Code:

 dren_req = max(20 + 5 * current_modifier , 10)
 modifier : dren req
 -5 : 10
 -4 : 10
 -3 : 10
 -2 : 10
 -1 : 15
 0 : 20
 1 : 25
 2 : 30
 3 : 35
 4 : 40
 5 : 45
 6 : 50
 7 : 55
 8 : 60
 9 : 65
 10 : 70

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

Got 1 question. The +1 artifact. Can be taken by any player or just xwm?

I was thinking any player, on any weapon type - except medic and EngLink weapons of course.

greg11 wrote:

I think the +1 ability could replace the max ability and max+1 ability.....

I think AMs are too used to their max-in-one-request artifact now to ever relinquish it. Plus if the amount to use varies, it gets quite confusing for players.

The artifacts I was thinking of for the +1 were single use, requiring zero adrenaline. Basically pick them up and apply them to weapons - so more weapon powerups rather than magic artifacts. They could even be made so they automatically activate on pickup - so whatever weapon you have when you run over it, it increases by +1 (or -1, or +0 or +2...).
I was after the XWM not being dependent on adrenaline to improve their lot.

Anyway, I am still not sure we have got the right solution yet. The spawned +1 artifacts could be used by all WM subclasses equally effectively, so they are a side issue really.