Class balancing...

So I'm sifting through the top scores for the server, and I noticed that there isn't a single Medic/Mob class in the top 30. Whoa! The next class presence is the Adrens and there's only like 5...

I'm new to the servers and the forums, but it kind of seems like there is some serious class balancing needed against the weapon masters.

Just wondering what some of the more present folks around here thought. =] Obviously there could be a lot of reasons why there aren't any medics in the top 30 (and only a few total in the top 50!) and it's possible it's just coincidence.

But then, that's why I'm askin'! =] How do you guys feel about the class balance currently?

Dru has worked very hard on class balance and it's extraordinarily close... the reason why you don't see too many medics on the top scoring list is 1) that they're a relatively new class and 2) that they usually heal players thus killing less, causing a decrease in their overall score, but not xp. As for LA, there are quite a few in the top scoring range, but again this is not as new as the medic class, but new in comparrison to the loaded weapons. Loaded weapons has been on the server since the start so many players are much higher rankings in this class just due to time spent, but it doesn't mean there's a class difference. In most maps you'll see that LA is harder to play, but generally can keep up with LW at a decent level... medics however tend to have the lower score (but not always the case, depends who's on and when) but this is evened out in the XP that each class gains... So the classes are very balanced in looking at skills and xp gained... score is kind of a missleading piece of data because overall they are well thought out classes and close as you could get to beeing equal.

That makes a lot of sense, P, thanks - I am seeing now looking through some of the release notes that medics are a more recent addition. Have the scoreboards ever been reset? I also saw that some folks were mentioning a class-centric scoreboard which I thought was a really cool idea! Otherwise, why keep score at all? =\

"Score" is definitely skewed towards LW though it would seem. Is there a breakdown of how XP is gained somewhere? There are grey areas I don't totally get - boosting a link gun medic, assisting in the kill of a mob, weapon excellence (flk monkey, combo master, head shots, sprees etc.)... stuff like that. I find bits and pieces here and there, but nothing collective.

I think I had originally concluded that if the most XP is gained by slaying a mob and slaying mobs is what gets you higher score, then a hgiher score must equal a higher XP yield also. Like, if you had a lv 50 medic and a lv 50 lw and the medic was only healing every wave and the lw was only slaying mobs every wave, the lw would come out on top every time in both score and XP.

With my first impressions it seemed like LA and LM both kind of have almost a responsibilty to the LW (to heal them and tweek their weapons), AND have to fight mobs to keep up on XP, and LW essentially just slay mobs while others hook them up wave after wave you know*?

*I reserve the right to totally change my opinion of this once I've started and played LA and LW for a while lol =D

DoogieHowserMD wrote:

That makes a lot of sense, P, thanks - I am seeing now looking through some of the release notes that medics are a more recent addition. Have the scoreboards ever been reset? I also saw that some folks were mentioning a class-centric scoreboard which I thought was a really cool idea! Otherwise, why keep score at all? =\

"Score" is definitely skewed towards LW though it would seem. Is there a breakdown of how XP is gained somewhere? There are grey areas I don't totally get - boosting a link gun medic, assisting in the kill of a mob, weapon excellence (flk monkey, combo master, head shots, sprees etc.)... stuff like that. I find bits and pieces here and there, but nothing collective.

I think I had originally concluded that if the most XP is gained by slaying a mob and slaying mobs is what gets you higher score, then a hgiher score must equal a higher XP yield also. Like, if you had a lv 50 medic and a lv 50 lw and the medic was only healing every wave and the lw was only slaying mobs every wave, the lw would come out on top every time in both score and XP.

With my first impressions it seemed like LA and LM both kind of have almost a responsibilty to the LW (to heal them and tweek their weapons), AND have to fight mobs to keep up on XP, and LW essentially just slay mobs while others hook them up wave after wave you know*?

*I reserve the right to totally change my opinion of this once I've started and played LA and LW for a while lol =D

The "skew" you're seeing is mostly based on the popularity of LW. It's a very accessible class and is very popular. But it also contains a lot of depth to keep people going.

LA and LW are very close in terms of balance. I maintain the unnoficial high score table (http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/1666.page). The top player is LW while the next two are LA. There are three LA players and seven LW. My highest LA score to date is 2350, so I guess I could put that one up and make it 4/6.

As for medics, they are like the clerics in a RPG. Not really set up to be damage dealers. A good medic could definately score over 2000 points though. So it's not like they're incapable. But will a medic ever top the high score board? Only if Tiger Woods quits golf to become one, I think.

320, give SSAngeleyes time.

rockgoddess wrote:

320, give SSAngeleyes time.

We shall see...

DoogieHowserMD wrote:

I think I had originally concluded that if the most XP is gained by slaying a mob and slaying mobs is what gets you higher score, then a hgiher score must equal a higher XP yield also. Like, if you had a lv 50 medic and a lv 50 lw and the medic was only healing every wave and the lw was only slaying mobs every wave, the lw would come out on top every time in both score and XP.

With my first impressions it seemed like LA and LM both kind of have almost a responsibilty to the LW (to heal them and tweek their weapons), AND have to fight mobs to keep up on XP, and LW essentially just slay mobs while others hook them up wave after wave you know*?

XP is also granted for healing. It starts at 1% of the healed amount gets given as XP, but with the Experienced Healing skill maxed, it becomes 10%.
You only get 1 XP for killing a monster. The majority of the XP is given according to the damage done. So a warlord for example has 500 health and a XP of 10. If you do 100 damage to it, you get 2 XP.
So, the medics can score a lot more XP than LW/LAs. (10% rather than 2% of damage). Although, the invasion spree bonuses will get scored mainly by LW/LA, and so that will balance things a bit.

Score wise things are different. You only get score for killing monsters, so the scoreboard will typically have LA/LW players at the top (Fro and OOO excepted), as the medics will spend a proportion of their time healing people. However, medics tend to live longer, and a medic flak or RL is a good offensive weapon - get up close and get lots of splash damage and keep healing yourself whilst killing monsters. In trouble, teleport out, 10 seconds healing, then back into the fray again. They can score decent points when everyone else is dead.

So, I think they are reasonably balanced on XP, but score will typically be higher for LW/LA.

Ya it may seem that the medics will not do as well, but when the server is full and there are few medics on, you can make literaly TONS of experiance. I have made upwards of 3000 xp on a map just from healing, and that was with a level 28 medic. My LW character is lvl 57 and is lucky if I can get 1500 and I have to expect more like 500 on most maps with more like 300 if there are a number of high level players around. If there are a lot of medics on, it becomes run and gun.....

as for scores, my top score with my medic was right around 917 my top with LW was 1617.

score is not everything.

I am seeing the balance now, and I really appreciate your replies! It's pretty clear that the trade off for medics is a higher XP yield, and that's going to be fine for some people. If it isn't, they can always make an LW or LA! =]

I think I was also considering the game too much as a single player competition and forgetting that the focus really *should* be on team play and completing all waves. Medics heal, LAs boost, LWs... protect? Now that I've played a few full servers with the right folks that dynamic definitely came out a bit more.

I really love the mod. Been playing UT for years and never tried the RPG servers! Glad I found it!

DoogieHowserMD wrote:

I think I was also considering the game too much as a single player competition and forgetting that the focus really *should* be on team play and completing all waves. Medics heal, LAs boost, LWs... protect? Now that I've played a few full servers with the right folks that dynamic definitely came out a bit more.

The cool thing about the server and the mod (some will disagree on certain points) is that there are many different styles of play. In particular, a LA char can play support or they can go fight. I usually choose the latter or a combination. LA is also, by far, the best "sniper" class, with their triple damage, max wep and max + 1 ability. So that's another potential role.

A LW player can also be a sort of support player, too, in a "protector" sense. Like for example, on tough maps, they can stand in the doorway and head up a link chain. The lower levels feed the link while the higher level takes the hits.

Snipering is very difficult though due to the anti-camping and out of bounce things.

Yet still, one of this mods strengths though is the many different ways you can play it. There are tons of different play styles you can use. The best fun is playing one class for a while then switching to a different one. Going from medic to LA has been quite a switch in play styles.

320 wrote:

But will a medic ever top the high score board? Only if Tiger Woods quits golf to become one, I think.

Maybe I'll change my medic's name to Tiger_Woods_da_Hero

Fro13 wrote:

320 wrote:

But will a medic ever top the high score board? Only if Tiger Woods quits golf to become one, I think.

Maybe I'll change my medic's name to Tiger_Woods_da_Hero

You'll have to be the kind of medic that was helping out Barry Bonds. <cough>

supertoast wrote:

Snipering is very difficult though due to the anti-camping and out of bounce things.

Yet still, one of this mods strengths though is the many different ways you can play it. There are tons of different play styles you can use. The best fun is playing one class for a while then switching to a different one. Going from medic to LA has been quite a switch in play styles.

Don't bother hiding. It's not necessary with the medics and you miss half the critters anyway.

If your favorite guns are the lightning, sniper, shock and mini, I think artifacts is the way to go. Purely my opinion. All those guns are extremely powerful when maxed + 1 and then combined with the triple.