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03/02/2006 05:52:46
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Szlat
Wicked Sick!
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TheDruidXpawX wrote:
Adrenaline masters were always intended to have cool mage like skills, and to an extent, exploit the different weapon modifiers to do things other people can't do.
I like the idea of AMs being more like mages than front line fighters.
Currently, I think there is too much of a 'weapons focus' on the AMs, and would like to see a greater variety of artifacts to allow them to be more like mages.
Now the change in 190 for the Lightning Rod sounds good. At the moment, the LR is basically useless because it does a little damage to lots of monsters. At the moment, not much is known about how Druid is going to change the LR - we will have to wait and see.
However, I would like to see the following artifacts for AMs
lightning bolt - similar to the lightning rod, but does one big hit on a single monster. At least it would achieve something.
nuke - creates a redeemer like explosion a set distance in front of the AM. A decent offensive artifact
FreezeBomb - same as the nuke, but instead of damage just null entropies enemies for a while
Drainer - zeroes enemy damage reduction within a certain blast area, for when you haven't got a piercing weapon
Enhancer - increases team members attack damage or damage reduction in a set range
Perhaps also
Rejuvenate - instantly sets health and armour to max. I am not sure this wont detract from medics though, so I am not convinced. Likewise if it was like a booster artifact you could switch off - still steals the thunder from medics
Half health - larger bomb blast that halves the health of all enemies in radius. Kills nothing.
Perhaps add in Loaded Artifacts 4.
I would like to see AMs using adrenaline for something else other than the MWM, MaxModifier and the triple.
Forget about the balance between WMs and AMs for a minute, and just think of the AM class.
What do you reckon?
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03/02/2006 06:28:46
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BotFodder
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Szlat - I have a similar thread I started over at Adren Masters and XP stuff
Szlat wrote:
I like the idea of AMs being more like mages than front line fighters.
Currently, I think there is too much of a 'weapons focus' on the AMs, and would like to see a greater variety of artifacts to allow them to be more like mages.
Before I continue addressing your excellent ideas, there's a couple of relevant concepts I've been wanting to make sure people are thinking about:
"Score" is not the same as "XP". On a personal note, I've gone up 1000 xp in a map, and had a score of like 350 at the end of the map. I've also had cases where I've had 350 and made no where near 1000 xp. AM's may become like medics eventually - lower scoring than the WM's, but getting just as much XP as the other classes in a given map.
I think in the short term Adren Masters are going to be a weak class. But only in the short term. If *any* of these ideas get implemented, you guys will be a force to be reconed with.
That being said, I can't wait to see what AM's will be like in 195 or so. I too also welcome the changes to the LR artifact.
Szlat wrote:
lightning bolt - similar to the lightning rod, but does one big hit on a single monster. At least it would achieve something.
Basically an adrenaline powered weapon. Cool.
Szlat wrote:
nuke - creates a redeemer like explosion a set distance in front of the AM. A decent offensive artifact
Just don't get caught in it. This might be a bit too powerful with the number of maps that already have nukes on them.
Szlat wrote:
FreezeBomb - same as the nuke, but instead of damage just null entropies enemies for a while
MUahahahhha! That I like.
Szlat wrote:
Drainer - zeroes enemy damage reduction within a certain blast area, for when you haven't got a piercing weapon
I would go with reducing, not so much zeroing. Unless it would be a quick, temporary thing. Perhaps similar in concept to the Lightning Rod? Where all monsters in sight of the AM using the artifact have 0 or reduced DR?
Szlat wrote:
Enhancer - increases team members attack damage or damage reduction in a set range
This is much like the idea I had with AM's getting the skill (not artifact based) of being able to use their link gun to link with someone wielding *any* weapon, and giving them a combo "force"/damage boost.
Szlat wrote:
Perhaps also
Rejuvenate - instantly sets health and armour to max. I am not sure this wont detract from medics though, so I am not convinced. Likewise if it was like a booster artifact you could switch off - still steals the thunder from medics
I'd go with armor, but not health (as I have suggested something similar). As you say, the health part might steal thunder from the medics.
Szlat wrote:
Half health - larger bomb blast that halves the health of all enemies in radius. Kills nothing.
I would say that something like this that ignores damage reduction, and works on percentages (starting at 50% at ground zero, going out from there) at different radii would be kickin'.
I just want people to get away from the score concept for a bit - unless Dru comes up with a way to get people score points that don't involve killing monsters, it can be quite an arbitrary measure and be somewhat misleading. Medics (Fro excluded, of course) don't typically score highly, but I'd guess they were making their fair share of XP. I see AM's headed that way (with, of course, a short term drop in capability until the class is given it's due attention from Dru - congratulations! You guys are the new beta class!). Who knows in the long term though? When Dru starts implementing some of the concepts to expand the AM class, you guys might have a day or so where you too can go from 5 - 52 level in a matter of hours!
Foolish reader! So much time wasted! That's what you get for reading another typically long BotFodder post!
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03/02/2006 06:37:21
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[KitFox]
Dominating
Joined: 11/25/2005 07:59:59
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Is it normal that so much people ask so much to only one developper?
If i was Druid, i would probably already had a heart attack
I dont know how you do Druid. I never have enough time. (Maybe if i did not play 4 hours / day i could topugh )
I fear you will get too overwhelmed and say forget it i shutdown everything. And i would probably understand.
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03/02/2006 06:45:05
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Szlat
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Thanks for the feedback BotFodder.
BotFodder wrote:
"Score" is not the same as "XP". On a personal note, I've gone up 1000 xp in a map, and had a score of like 350 at the end of the map. I've also had cases where I've had 350 and made no where near 1000 xp. AM's may become like medics eventually - lower scoring than the WM's, but getting just as much XP as the other classes in a given map.
Agreed. It would be good if Druid could show both score and XP on the F1 screen.
BotFodder wrote:
Szlat wrote:
Drainer - zeroes enemy damage reduction within a certain blast area, for when you haven't got a piercing weapon
I would go with reducing, not so much zeroing. Unless it would be a quick, temporary thing. Perhaps similar in concept to the Lightning Rod? Where all monsters in sight of the AM using the artifact have 0 or reduced DR?
I was thinking of a permanent reduction in the enemy DR (for the map). So all players would benefit not just the AM.
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03/02/2006 06:46:24
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Szlat
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KitFox wrote:
Is it normal that so much people ask so much to only one developer?
I'll code them if Druid wants?
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03/02/2006 06:56:56
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[KitFox]
Dominating
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Personnally i dont want my class to be changed. I am one of the very rare active AM online each days. Most of the time im alone on the map. I learbned how to love this class and I love it as it is.
If you want a mage class go for it but dont touch my class please!!
I just want to remember everyone that this is Unreal Tournament, how can you imagine playing this game without guns?
I dont know, put the Transporter, the Lightning Rod, the Electromagnet for Mage class only. Add the nice ideas of Szlat artifact. Choose a list of skills.
Change all thhe guns by "Adrhenaline Draining" stuff that can be bought with points. Loaded Mage 1,2,3,4,5,6,7" with a default one so mage can actually level.
And there you go, you have a real Mage class.
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03/02/2006 07:25:25
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BotFodder
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Szlat wrote:
I was thinking of a permanent reduction in the enemy DR (for the map). So all players would benefit not just the AM.
Ah, but I'm looking at it from the team play perspective. You get a big room where an AM can see a lot of monsters, but stand back ... and then he says "Draining on!" and the WM's (and braver AM's) go to work!
As for asking from one coder: I myself have flirted with the idea of learning the coding scheme for the mods - I'm assuming is similar to a known language?
Thing is, I've had my fill for a while. I learned LPC and did some mud coding, and now I've gotten stuck hosting it. All I do there these days is log in and tell them when the weather gets bad or when the site might go through a power outage.
Besides, I too dedicate several hours a day to playing, and would like to get BotFodder healthily set up (say, where I can play a couple of maps and at least once end up at the top of the list with a 1500+ score, routinely scoring 1000+ and not dying before the end of the map) even before switching classes, much less coding mods.
While I greatly respect Dru and enjoy his work, he's welcome to the back end of things. Mayhap I'll join him - when my book is done, been made into a movie, and I can offer hosting the site with awesome bandwidth and am living a majority of my life on SCUBA liveaboards (note: the book doesn't get worked on because I'm playing UT2004 all the time - kind of a nasty catch 22 there).
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03/02/2006 07:55:30
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[KitFox]
Dominating
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Hehe im stuck in the same scheme.
I should perfect my knowledge on J2EE, Spring, AOP etc. But i need some good time when im back at home, and this time is on this server
Im Really Serious tough.
It should be New Mage class not changing AM.
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03/02/2006 08:06:31
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Szlat
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KitFox wrote:
It should be New Mage class not changing AM.
What I am suggesting are all additions to the class, so you could keep playing exactly as you are.
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03/02/2006 08:38:34
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[KitFox]
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Oh!
But, you have enough ideas to create a complete class there
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03/02/2006 14:31:22
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ck
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Joined: 01/20/2006 17:28:27
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i think before doing anything else (and by doing i mean thinking about) if we are getting serious on this artifact masters as mages idea, then we should be able to bind each artifact to a key(i'm pretty sure you can't do this atm) changing the "U" key is one thing but it's not enough. so before any fancy ideas, this smaller update would be nice. using the triple damage, then quickly switching to globe etc would be very very nice. that way ppl would also use l. rod (which is something dru wants)
right now, i would rather keep it on triple damage and not die trying to switch artifacts. it's a fast paced game as we all know.
if we are going to have more "magic" artifacts, then we also need to think about costs. i like most of the ideas listed here, but most of them should at least cost 250 adren (max adrenalin allowed atm) and that could be too little. and some of them u need to think relatively - if you are going to have instant health boost it shuold cost muchh more than booster (not insntat) and it should also cost high enough that it shouldn't stop the healers' job (just in case of emergency)
i'm basically saying there a lot - maybe too much - to think and code - definitely way too much for dru.
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03/02/2006 20:47:33
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TheDruidXpawX
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KitFox wrote:
If i was Druid, i would probably already had a heart attack
If you come up with something I think is right on the money, I'll accept source code or patches
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03/03/2006 05:49:15
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BotFodder
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As people are looking at at this thread rather than mine, I'll post some thoughts here ...
First off, it's looking like the change is going to be gradual - we might not see some of these things until Dru gets around to 250 at this rate. Now, I'm going to do that "talking out of my butt" thing, but if I have a handle on how things are developing:
Over time, AM's are probably going to have to change their play style slightly:
Use distance weapons with the triple to keep their kill/xp rate on par with WMs - you'll be doing similar damage as WM's but from the safety of the back row, where you won't need vamp like the WM's do. On tight maps, you guys are going to have it rough though.
If you get into a monster's face, your triple with a high damage up close weapon will work, but you might have to run and find a medic afterwards. Make friends with one and hang out with them regularly.
Eventually, you will become more of a support class, at least at the mid levels, depending on how/when/if some of these ideas are implemented. At later levels, with some of the ideas that have been offered, you guys will be crucial to everyone's well being, and will be getting your fair share of XP, and maybe even score points.
I'm thinking that some of you are currently playing AM's like some "slightly more difficult" version of WM's. Perhaps you're thinking that getting the triple is like using "a more elegant weapon for a more civilized time." Dru has said that he's planning on making AM's more like mages - so you guys aren't going to be able to do the "only slightly different from WM" hack/slash some of you are probably doing now.
And yes - I think possibly boosting AM's max adren up another 50 points or so isn't a bad idea, so that some of these suggestions can be used fairly.
Additional ideas that have occurred to me either recently or while writing this post:
Szlat - a variation on your "nuke set distance" thing, how about the classic "fireball"? I'm envisioning something more like the "fire and run away" method with the nuke - no guidance. Dru - could you do fire where if someone got too close, they could catch on fire? Hmmm ... might be too CPU intensive, having to keep track of:
when the fire started
everyone/thing that's burning
when someone catches secondary fire
when all the fires started should just burn out - this would alleviate some of the CPU concerns
And when I wrote that "back row" line, it occurred to me that maybe AM's should get "penetration" as a skill - even multiple levels could be instituted, where if a weapon has to pass through a player, the player doesn't block the damage to monsters totally. Like:
Pen.1: All weapons AM uses are decreased by 50% when they pass through a player.
Pen.2: 40%
Pen.3: 30%
...
Pen:6: Weapons pass through all "player obstacles" and do full damage to monsters.
For those of you still reading this post, congratulations! Brave souls, one and all, struggling through a BotFodder post ...
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03/03/2006 07:22:24
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Szlat
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BotFodder wrote:
... struggling through a BotFodder post ...
What level penetration skill would an AM need for that?
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03/03/2006 07:24:14
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BotFodder
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Szlat wrote:
What level penetration skill would an AM need for that?
Pen.6, obviously. Otherwise you won't get all the way through the end.
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