Difficulty level poll

BotFodder wrote:

And that's the rub - to make it "harder", they basically resorted to allowing the monsters to cheat.

That's what's wrong with the current AI - and it's not an invasion thing, it's a UT2004 thing. Take the single player ladder mode. In the final match vs. Malcom, he has autoaim, always knows where you are, and can shoot, dodge, and move faster than you. It's like RPG suddenly kicks in for the final match, and he's level 20 and you're level 1. The differences are subtle, but noticeable when you're looking for them.

That's why I run all my games at Average. It's only the second level of the AI, but it's the hardest of the two levels that doesn't cheat.

The good thing about it is that dodging in UT covers enough distance and takes enough time you can eventually predict where the landing point will be. Play against someone who is used to playing agains another person and dodging will get you killed if your not carefull with it.

Continuum wrote:

The good thing about it is that dodging in UT covers enough distance and takes enough time you can eventually predict where the landing point will be. Play against someone who is used to playing agains another person and dodging will get you killed if your not carefull with it.

But see, that's just it. A human will do it more "randomly" and not the *instant* you fire your flak/rocket/bio/primary link even close to "at" them, and can do it as often as a flak with max WS will cycle (I haven't really kept track with the other weapons).

I also think it would be easier to deal with if you could keybind dodging (because if the monster can dodge you easily, you'd at least be able to dodge them a bit more easily). However, I think that handy ability is limited to those of you using special controllers, if even then ...

And dodge too much forward with too much adren and all of a sudden you're wasting that adren with "speed". But I digress ...

AWWWww i should read all the choices first.. i would of voted for harder *sigh*

I love it!!! At first I couldn't really tell a difference, but after a couple maps I was able to see a big difference. I say keep it for now..then maybe up it one more...

I also got a new high score on the new difficulty lvl, just havn't had a chance to post it..

I think Bot and I are in agreement that the AM player class, especially at low and mid levels is at a distinct disadvantage on the new difficulty level. How about giving the AM player a limited vamp or regen ability.

I've developed my level 48 AM player to play the way the class was meant to be played as set out by Dru. He's a stand off player that can deal damage from a distance and use adrenaline often to activate his little toys. I've put all my points into adrenaline, weapon damage, and weapon speed. I have 0 points into health and damage reduction. As it stands with the new difficulty, the monsters, especially the nali, are wiping the floor with me. They are simply too fast and agressive to be a stand off player. The monsters will find you quickly and make you dead.

shimmyNshake WM level 102
shimmy-LA level 48

shimmyNshake wrote:

...How about giving the AM player a limited vamp or regen ability...

I'm sure all classes would love a few extra abilities, but I don't think picking that scab is a good idea now that it's almost healed.

shimmyNshake wrote:

I think Bot and I are in agreement that the AM player class, especially at low and mid levels is at a distinct disadvantage on the new difficulty level.

Yes. Mostly. I may just not be used to it yet. It certainly requires adjustments in play, and as per

a previous post in this thread, I've figured out what has me having to unplug my mic once in a while. I don't like people who cheat, and I anthropomorphize computers ... so I don't like it when they cheat, too.

shimmyNshake wrote:

How about giving the AM player a limited vamp or regen ability.

No.

That's not how Dru has designed the class and I don't like the idea of "stealing" another class' benefit.

I would rather suggest that as AM's are artifact masters, those with Loaded Artifacts might deserve an adren drain rate cut on their artifact usage (at least on some artifacts), as drip (and I think leech) is negated while an artifact is activated (from what I understand, due to the presence of a possible exploit). But that idea has been shot down.

Thats why I said "limited" vamp or regen. Classes already share abilities, although some are limited in how far they can can progress in that ability. I certainly love my denial 3. The health of the AM class was not as much an issue when the medics were actually going around doing their job before the difficulty upgrade. Now theyre so busy trying to save their own skins they dont have time to heal others. (apologies to those medics out there. Don't take that as a knock)

shimmyNshake

Hello all

I just wanted to voice me opinion on the changes that have been happening this past year.

1) Taking away some of the levels of the weapons
a. Level 5 Flak, you can only get a level 4.
Now I could go on of all the weapon changes but you know what I am talking about. I heard that the changes made were because players were leveling up too fast. My thought is ?so what? If you look back in time at World War 1 and look at the weapons they used (guns, planes and so on) and see the upgrades they made, you could you say ?hey killing the enemy is too easy we have to take those new weapons away from you? ok, so that sounds a little silly but so does taking the levels of weapons away because it might be easier for the new players to level up. I thought this was a FAMILY orientated site.

2) The difficulty of the levels have been raised
I don?t mind a good challenge but it seems you are making it MUCH harder for younger kids to play. I noticed that even level 1 can kick your but, what do you so think little kids are going to think when they first start playing. They might think ?this is too hard, I?m not playing here? and they are going to tell their friends that this is a not a good site to play at. Once again you say this is a family orientated site.

I think you should seriously think of making changes to the changes you made. I?m not saying that you have to go back to where you started, but you could go back a little.
I apologize for rambling on but this meant a lot to me. I love when the younger kids get on and play and they look to us (players that have more experience) for help.

Your fellow Flaker Fotios

Fotios wrote:

1) a.Level 5 Flak, you can only get a level 4.
Now I could go on of all the weapon changes but you know what I am talking about. I heard that the changes made were because players were leveling up too fast. My thought is ?so what? If you look back in time at World War 1 and look at the weapons they used (guns, planes and so on) and see the upgrades they made, you could you say ?hey killing the enemy is too easy we have to take those new weapons away from you? ok, so that sounds a little silly but so does taking the levels of weapons away because it might be easier for the new players to level up. I thought this was a FAMILY orientated site.

This is not a war. Its a game. Most people want to be a little challenged when they play a game. Everyone was Level 5 at one point and they all managed to get to the point where they survive longer. Taking levels of weapons away has nothing to do with whether this is a family site or not.

2) The difficulty of the levels have been raised
I don?t mind a good challenge but it seems you are making it MUCH harder for younger kids to play. I noticed that even level 1 can kick your but, what do you so think little kids are going to think when they first start playing. They might think ?this is too hard, I?m not playing here? and they are going to tell their friends that this is a not a good site to play at. Once again you say this is a family orientated site.

I could be wrong and this is only from my experience, but the 'younger' kids are usually 10, 11, 12, 13ish. I don't think I've ever played with anyone younger than that (Again, I could be wrong). They are old enough to realize games are supposed to be challenging. Even kids younger than that should realize games are supposed to be difficult, now that I think about it.

I love when the younger kids get on and play and they look to us (players that have more experience) for help.

This is awesome and higher level players can still do that even with the extra difficulty.

B_B

shimmyNshake wrote:

The health of the AM class was not as much an issue when the medics were actually going around doing their job before the difficulty upgrade. Now theyre so busy trying to save their own skins they dont have time to heal others. (apologies to those medics out there. Don't take that as a knock)
shimmyNshake

I do have a higher level medic, but i find myself healing more often now then I used too. There's actually people that need to be healed. Before, it was always a race to find somebody that needed to be topped off that extra 50. I found myself usually killing monsters and healing people along the way. Now there's actually people to heal, so I can heal people and kill monsters along the way.

A low level characer isn't suppose to live every wave. If they're not dying, it's not hard enough or they're not being aggressive enough.

Moof wrote:

That's what's wrong with the current AI - and it's not an invasion thing, it's a UT2004 thing. Take the single player ladder mode. In the final match vs. Malcom, he has autoaim, always knows where you are, and can shoot, dodge, and move faster than you. It's like RPG suddenly kicks in for the final match, and he's level 20 and you're level 1. The differences are subtle, but noticeable when you're looking for them.

That's why I run all my games at Average. It's only the second level of the AI, but it's the hardest of the two levels that doesn't cheat.

It's quite unfair how the bot difficulty and AI gives them aimbot skills and instant-dodge-when-u-shoot skills.....i used to play instantaction with max difficulty bots and they have wicked aim especially with the flak primary up close, link alt-fire and minigun.......but i used to do dat back then when i was competitive to keep my aim from getting rusty.......anyhoo, the most difficult level i have finished single player in is experienced and yea, malcolm in DM-hyperblast is a major pain.

BotFodder wrote:

But see, that's just it. A human will do it more "randomly" and not the *instant* you fire your flak/rocket/bio/primary link even close to "at" them, and can do it as often as a flak with max WS will cycle (I haven't really kept track with the other weapons).

I also think it would be easier to deal with if you could keybind dodging (because if the monster can dodge you easily, you'd at least be able to dodge them a bit more easily). However, I think that handy ability is limited to those of you using special controllers, if even then ...

And dodge too much forward with too much adren and all of a sudden you're wasting that adren with "speed". But I digress ...

i've experienced dat b4 when i try to shoot a skaarj with the flak primary at point blank range, he just dodged it like he knew it would be coming and i was like "whoa, dat's cheating". So i can definitely relate to that.........but i still like the new difficulty level just hate the AI for ut04 overall.

Continuum wrote:

The good thing about it is that dodging in UT covers enough distance and takes enough time you can eventually predict where the landing point will be. Play against someone who is used to playing agains another person and dodging will get you killed if your not carefull with it.

dodgine will get u killed if ur not careful when playing in a pro server.......but ppl still dodge most of the time........technically its all about using cover, dodging and killing ur enemy b4 he could kill u. Since both of u should have pretty good aim, then it really comes down to who could kill who faster while dodging around.......seriously if u play on a 1vs1 server and u and ur enemy try to kill each other with no progress for around 30 seconds, spectators would start complaining on how both of u suck at hitting one another and they'll tell u to go back to a noob demo server.........and oh yea, real people dodge mid-range shots not point blank shots dat ut04 AI dodges constantly. Wat botfodder's saying is dat the monsters dodge way above that of a normal human reaction time. oh well, ut04 's crappy AI is really stinking out now. They better do sumthin in UT07 about this.

Thank you to everyone who has given their input thus far. If you have not voted in the poll yet, please do so.

A few quick reminders, and then some responses to comments.

1) Do not hijack this thread. This thread is specifically to evaluate responses to the new difficulty level. Anything else does not belong here, and may be deleted.

2) Please be respectful of the server and others' posts. There is no need to flame anyone simply because you disagree with them. Remember, this is a game, not a life-or-death situation. People will also have an easier time understanding your viewpoint if you are respectful of theirs.

Responses to others:

1)In regards to younger children:
I would say that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to find a good balance on one server between people who are seeking a challenge and people who are looking for an easy game. In other words, you can't please everyone all the time.
We have tossed around a few ideas the past several years to make the game easier for those below level 20, and we may still implement some of those ideas. Until that point, we have constructed this server to be challenging. There are numerous servers with easy levelling systems that may be more appropriate for those new to the game or who have a harder time with our system.

2)In regards to class balance:
My hope with this new difficulty is that people will be forced to work more collaboratively- as a team. So as you are evaluating the new level, consider that.

3)In regards to score changes:
I will not go into possible exp changes based on the new level in this thread because we will discuss that elsewhere. Please keep your comments strictly on the topic of the difficulty change, and know that exp changes are being considered.

Took me by surprise and wondered why it got harder all of a sudden, 'till I read the forum. Yes, I like it. More challanging, especially for small groups.
All will have to change stratigies slightly to keep alive.