Cutting the AM class off at the knees

Well I see the complainers have won again and the AM class is a shadow of its former self. I must admit it was quite humiliating playing my AM character with the new "adjustments". It seems whenever skilled players excel on this server, instead of being rewarded they are punished. Granted the majority are still playing a game released almost 5 years ago that most have forgot about but I still think that there should at least be some kind of voting instead of one persons preference. I understand that a lot of work is put into this server, especially by a few people but I thought this was a community not a dictatorship. After reviewing the threads and posts associated with this, the "problems" that were adjusted were never mentioned by any other player before they were changed. Instead these changes were fabricated from what?

Well you have definitely fixed the problem, and at this rate there will only be yourselves to play with, and you wont have to sorry about skilled players.

This is Micron, over and out. Been fun playing with you all, had a blast. But its time to move on from this server, been playing here far to long anyways, maybe its time to grow up.

Congratulation to all the complainers, including the one who started the thread and who by the way, rarely plays.
It's ironic that people who complained, most of them, don't have an AM char. Obviously they don't know the class
as well as other high lvl and skilled players like Micron, Elite who were ignored about comments on changing
the AM class. I'm a lvl 180'sh AM player. The reason I started the class was because it was rumored it was the
hardest class to master. Took it upon myself to try it and take on the challenge. They're not kidding, it was
very hard to lvl. Up until lvl 80 you can begin to see its true potential. I consider myself an average player.
It took hard work, and many hours of play to get my char to this lvl. It's disgusting to see the changes that were made. I score higher now with my wep master that is about 40 lvl's lower than my AM. Pathetic.

The "problem" was the triple as Micron suggested, Ratar agreed with him too. But no, "complainers" had to say
something about using too much blast, too much bolt. Deathmatch IS NOT fair for ANY class. Medics are unbeatable.
Are we going to nerf them too? Maybe wep masters have too much vamp, let's nerf them too. Engineers can build
paladins in deathmatch is that unfair too? let's nerf them. If you think deathmatch is unfair because of
"skills" of other classes, well I have an advice for you, DON'T PLAY deathmatches. Period. Stop whining and work on your skills, it will make you a better player, no matter your lvl.

I challenge ANY player, including complainers, to get an AM char and get as high as Micron, Ratar, Elite, Bel or for
that matter myself too. You'll see how hard it is once ghost, regen are lost after lvl 41. Most people quit after
lvl 41 because its very difficult to play an AM.

I hope these changes satisfy all of you "whiners". We lost one great player, Micron.

I guess it's no secret that I only recently started playing after a long absence. I would say I have a decently high AM myself, and a fairly strong WM. I've also been one of the coders for DruidsRPG.

We won't go into the "main" reason for my absence (an aggravation I still encounter, but to less a degree now), but as an AM at 140, I felt a bit over powered - and not due to the triple. No, that wasn't why I left, as any issues with AMs being over powered can be tweaked. I left for a reason that I doubt seriously can be fixed now.

I've played it maybe once or twice since my return, and perhaps there's been some tweaks - I didn't think it as unfair as it was before I left. But if folks are still complaining, then they should at least get a fair chance to comment.

It's not hard as an AM to get a high score at the expense of everyone else. All it takes is clever use of your Beam or Bolt. I played with Micron on for a couple of waves recently and I have to say, the Beam or Bolt is much more annoying than a Vorp Shock 22. I'd purposefully find a section of the map that he wasn't on so I could (as my WM) wail on a monster and have a decent chance of killing it myself, only to have him run by and Bolt it. And then Bolt something else. And then Bolt something else. Like, during a Titan wave. It's like he could come into a room and practically deemer it - but it seemed like he could do it three or four times a wave without breaking a sweat, and he didn't have to worry about being caught in any blast. Just my experience, but apparently the feeling is shared somewhat. Perhaps I'm just used to holding my own against characters 100 levels above me (sometimes it actually seems like I might have some skill at this game). And perhaps Micron's just that much better (and also has around 80 levels on me). I dunno. I can only tell you what my experience was like.

On the other hand, I'm sure I've been as annoying on some of the earlier waves as a WM, running around with a flak or decent shield gun and killing something someone else had been pounding on. But with the Bolt, you don't even have to point at it.

I don't care what level you are - if you can instakill (possibly without aiming) three Titans (perhaps one or two of them at full health) in rapid succession, that just doesn't seem right to me (mind you, I don't make up the rules or decide on what's fair or isn't fair - I just have my opinion).

Micron, you ran a map last night, and only died on 16. I don't see how that experience can seem grossly unfair to you, unless I missed an update after I logged off.

I've always been one to say that "kill thieving" doesn't exist on this server, but I gain a lot of sympathy for the folks that complain about it when certain setups make it "easy". When the Beam was first introduced oh so long ago, I had a giddy moment when I Beamed like four or five half dead Titans. Then the guilt set in ... it was *way* too easy, and required *no* work.

I would agree that the Triple stacking with those objects is problematic. I did not see a problem with the Triple on Piercing weapons, but someone apparently did.

Do the objects (Beam and Bolt) themselves need to be removed? I would hope not, as the AMs need something; perhaps the Bolt can be removed and the Beam kept (I mind it a little less when you have to aim at what you're killing, and it's a position I think I've expressed before). But there has to be something done about mana gain/usage, and I don't know if you can adjust the mana a monster gives when you kill it. "A percentage of health" has always bothered me as a damage value - you can't kill either a pupae or a titan with it? Really, I'm drawing a blank on the possible solutions right now.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that, I doubt seriously an AM could survive much on his own, and no class should be able to. But if the presence of a high level AM or two suddenly kills the joy for a lot of folks, and the AMs are grossly outscoring similarly leveled characters (my WM has 30 levels on my AM and my AM can easily outscore him), then there's an issue.

Oh - and I care not about fairness in DM or PvP. I've had a long standing hatred of PvP games in UT2004 (and only rarely like them in other games).

I say nothing good or bad about the "Blast" because the only move to make it harder to use now would be to increase mana usage to a full 250 (it's at 200 now, last I knew). Not having played in a while, I find it sufficiently tricky to use since there's a timer on it and I don't have a good handle on the distance, and it does less damage than a deemer, IIRC. If someone has managed to master it and become annoying, that's probably more skill than unbalance. So on that object, I've been neutral from the start. I also have the problem that I tend to hide from my Blast shots out of reflex.

Oh, one last thing: The server's a Biumverate. Whatever Dru and Shan say, goes. If they allow a change into the game, it's because *they* allowed it. Szlat and any other developers with CVS access can only submit changes - Dru's the one that compiles the mod to put it in. And both of them have (as is their right) put a foot down on occasion and rejected ideas. In that sense, the community has some say but Dru and Shan have veto powers and have been known to exercise them. If this shocks your or is unacceptable, then play elsewhere.

Feel free to flame me as a "not sufficiently high AM" or "you haven't played in a while" (or perhaps even "who the heck do you think you are"). All of our experiences on both sides of this issue are anecdotal and colored by our own perceptions. I'd suggest you save your breath though - ignoring me would probably serve your point much better than flaming me.

So the patch finally went through? I'm mainly been on my medic and engineer. Wasnt Blast getting buffed by 100 damage.

I'll agree with a few points. 41-80 is pretty much hell for AM's. But can't you admit that trip/bolt was a bit Op'ed in the sense. I still say that doub/bolt was fine since you cant have double all the time and it still burns a good deal of adrenaline on anything that has a decent amount of life. Since the chance was announced, i started trying trip/rod and have had some decent returns on it. It requires a spree goin but also is better used in a wide open area but it does return a decent xp rate as well.

I've also been playing around with DMM as well but still havent found much of a use out of it at its current drain rate for mainly just vorp 20 and poison 8 mini on titan waves.

If you are leaving Micron, GL wherever ya go, its been fun playing with ya.

no offense Ghost , or Micron I always enjoy playing online with you guys
and but the simple fact is you'll adjust, played last night and ghost already has adjusted his style already.
where were your arguments to not making these changes ? this has been a LONG ongoing process.
The problems that were "adjusted" were getting out of hand were before only a few knew certain "techniques" and used them occasionally these "techniques" were becoming primary weapons. Watch most "older" AM players like Bel, Ratar, Buster see how often they use Bolt, how often do they clear a room of warlords in couple of seconds ?

I won't apologize for being a "Whiner" I stand by what I've said before.
I had a lvl 60 AM out score my lvl 200+ LW by over 1000pts . Tell me something isn't wrong.
and yes this is a COMMUNITY everyone here had a chance to voice there opinion and suggest "fixes" , stomping your feet after the fact does not contribute to the community

and levels 40-80 are rough for pretty much ALL classes

I have stayed out of these types of conversations for a long, long time.

Instead of voicing my opinion on balance issues, I've come to just accept the changes that are made. I don't feel that my opinion influences anything, and I'm ok with that as it isn't my server.

I've been here since before we had specific classes. When we were asked to choose, I chose AM. Not sure why, but after a tough start as an AM, I love being one.

Honestly, I didn't start using rod, bolt, or beam until a few months ago. As for me, I could be happy with three things: a globe, a triple, and a MWM. That's it. Those three are all I used to use. Some of my highest personal scores came from that strategy. I don't find the rod all that useful. It does low damage and drains adren too fast. Maybe on lower waves when surrounded by mobs.... The bolt could be eliminated, IMO. Too much adren, and I don't like the misses. Beam really has only one purpose: to kill titans fast. Like it or lump it, that's where massive points get racked up. Again, we could get rid of all of these and it would be fine with me.

One-hit-kills with the press of a button is a bit too much.

My strategy as an AM has always been to make my favorite, most effective weapons first, then focus on killing everything that moves. If I don't have good weaps, it equals death in the late waves...especially without piercing.

Other players have different ways of playing. Without naming anyone, there are a few who focus strictly on racking up huge scores from wave one, no matter what class they use. Right or wrong, that's the way they play. Medics are designed to heal, AM's can make and max weaps to hand out, engineers can build and boost shields, WM's are the tanks. Whether or not people choose to play the class that way is up to them. Admittedly it is annoying and frustrating when you have medics running around killing without healing a single sole. But that's their choice. We can't force anyone to play a certain way......which brings me to the point of this post.

It seems as though by nerfing this or boosting that, we are trying to get people to play a certain way. It doesn't work. It just makes some people mad, and others happy.

In the end, I like playing here because for the most part, people play their characters the way the class was intended. Anyone who plays while I'm on knows that I try to be as helpful as I can in getting people good weapons when I make them. I also have the ultimate goal of finishing the match by teamwork as much as possible. It's a beautiful thing when it flows like that. Other people here don't seem too concerned with finishing a match or helping others...only with massive scores. When it comes down to it, either you accept that and play, or you don't and you leave.

I'll continue to play here as long as I have fun. When that stops, so will I.

<stands and applauds TheElectrician>
I myself have not played in a long time, but I have been here for a while. Like TheElectrician said, there used to not be classes, just play. And to tell you the trueth, it was much more fun then IMHO. You joined, started to play and if a particularly nice wep was around, it was handed out as fast as you could run over the spawn point, as a group you tried to win it all.
Now, thats not to say it isn't like that now, but there is a different feel to the play. "he's stronger then me, she isn't healing everyone, they stole my kill....." , maybe not uttered in game, but out there all the same. I remember vividly in my early days here when DD was the only player that survived every single wave, and we all were specing him and telling him where the badys were. Did I think he used the artifacts he earned to get a leg up on me? NO. Did I get upset if he came hucking through a room and mowed down a mob of skargg I was thumping on? Heck no, I said thanks and tossed him a globe I accidentily picked up from one of the kills. (And usually he'd toss it back with a No thanks) My point is, don't complain about whining, as it just seems like your doing the whining. Play, have fun, kill some critters and hope someone has your back.

emetakleze wrote:

Play, have fun, kill some critters and hope someone has your back.

I thought this was the whole purpose of the game, to play, to have fun, to joke around with friends and make new friends, and generally shoot things. I don't care what the scores are, except for leveling up, and if you notice, rarely am I the highest scorer at the end of the map. So what!!

Yes, I have my biases and prejudices in regards to classes and their relative power but again, so what.

I 've been on for a while--just after Dru and Shan started the class setup and am still here.

All players, regardless of talent and class, need to lighten up and learn that this is just a game and not a way of life/reality and there is no need to treat this or any game seriously.

I agree that the combination of triple with rod, triple, and bolt is too much. But penalizing the am class
even further was unnecessary. Timers on bolt and triple? I accidentally picked up a dd and guess what?
I couldn't fire the bolt or beam.

All I'm saying is that, no consideration was given to experienced AM players who knew where the extra power
came from; the triple. Also, its frustrating that people who complain about "you're stealing my kills" had more
weight about what they say, than experienced high lvl AM players like Micron, Bel, and Ratar.

I'm taking about a particular person, and no Road, it's not you and for the record, I enjoy playing with you too. You have a legit reason, so would I if I had been outscored by a 60ish AM by 1000 pts.
There's a reason why pooplets never came back to play on this server, someone kept arguing with him about "stealing kills". The decision about nerfing the blast was made solely based on this person's comment (complaint).

I'm a team player, and help whenever I can. I max weps, use globes but on rare occasions since it's better to kill monsters than waiting there for the adren to run out and die. Expecting more from the AM class to be more of a team player, well it's a long way to get there. I frankly don't know IF there's a way. Just because of they way the AM class was built.

The Electrician couldn't have said it better: "I'll continue to play here as long as I have fun. When that stops, so will I."

Let The Good Times Roll

thanks to the three "old" guys

for your input simply "Have fun" best advice yet !!

wasn't aware of the no DD and bolt/beam though (been trying to play my AM more and am having a hard time adjusting my gameplay to the class)
what we need to look at for the future is more suggestions for Szlat and Co. for the AM class
look what has been accomplished with the Engineer class MUCH more acceptable compared to the "mess" it was to start with.
I agree the feel of the server has changed a bit from when I started playing here (people would give me good weapons and heal me !! unheard of on other servers and it made me stay)
but you still see what this server is about all the time cooperation, and helping others. I love getting good scores but I will stop mid-wave and hand out/give away good weapons, health/heal. because someone did it for me once. Probably why I played my Medic for so long I love the spirit here.
I consider myself a regular here (too regular if you ask my wife) and anything I say here (suggestions or complaints) are only with the best interest of the server/community in mind
whoa blah blah blah

What was the blast nerfed too. I know the damage on it before was set to 1200 damage (not enought to kill a metal titan at full health 1300) and was getting a buff to 1300 damage so it could.

Source: http://www.disastrousconsequences.com/dcforum/posts/list/30/3933.page#35613

Edit: NM: I just found the post with the change

Szlat wrote:

Increased the range of the MegaBlast slightly, as it was just a bit too short.

Added a 60 second timer, so having used the MegaBlast you have to wait at least a minute before using it again. Otherwise sprees can give back sufficient adrenaline to allow the MegaBlast to be used too frequently.

DamageSphere changed to a default cost of 12 adrenaline per sec to balance it better against the Triple cost of 10 per second.

Was the damage still buffed at the center though as I dont see anything about it?

I still think double should of stayed working with bolt and beam since you actually have to find a udamage weapon plus it would make lucky weapons a good alternative to energy weapons for AM's. With doublt/bolt, it will drain a good deal of adrenaline even with a spree plus will only last as long as the pickup gives. leave the CD on bolt/beam and pretty much you can only use it 10 times per udamage.

In all honestly, with the cooldown in place, even trying to use trip/bolt is a waste as between bolt blasts you have to spend ~30 adrenaline with triple running. It'll be stupid to even use trip with it anymore cause you can only use it once every 3 seconds and only get 1 kill.

Really the cooldown was all it needed and the damage cap against players. Banning trip and double with it was just overkill.

Heh I still like how I'm refereed to as 'A lv 60 AM' by ya road.

well I said I wasn't going to point fingers and I stand by it

no blame just facts

must say it AM's where really powerful...

"Cutting the AM class off at the knees"

(si las habilidades de el AM se midieran en Centrimetros el mediria 3 mestros asi que si le cortamos hasta las rodillas no importa sigue siendo de tamaño normal)

the upper sentence is just a remand me to translate that in home..(so just dont attention to it.. unless u know spanish)

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

I consider myself a regular here (too regular if you ask my wife) and anything I say here (suggestions or complaints) are only with the best interest of the server/community in mind
whoa blah blah blah

How interesting, my wife says the same thing, only it's my mistress!!!!

I am sorry if anyone is upset by these latest changes. All the changes were made with the sole purpose of improving the balance between the classes, and making it more fun for everyone to play. I have no desire to spoil the game for anybody.

The AM class when originally developed by Druid did not include the Bolt or Beam. Instead of just wanting an AM to be variant of a WM, I wanted AMs to have the option to be more mage like, so I added the Beam, Bolt, Blasts, spheres etc.
So believe me, I have a vested interest in wanting the Beam and the Bolt to work. But in no way can they be considered a fundamental part of the AM abilities - they are addons.

However, recently a loophole has been found which has allowed AMs to score excessively - mainly by the bolt and triple combo. Not only has this caused AMs to get excessively high scores, and thus higher xp than they should, it has also spoilt the game for everyone else. This needed to be fixed pronto. Although AMs knew this was wrong, they were still continuing to exploit it.

From a coding perspective, the double damage and triple damage work in a very similar manner. Both set the same udamage flag. It is possible to iterate though the artifacts and see which one is active, but it takes cpu and requires extra coding to keep it flexible for other non-DC configurations where they might use Mysterials triple rather than Druids. So I disabled it for both, as this was the simplest coding option.

Now I understand that having the bolt suddenly stop working when you pick up a DD is a bit frustrating. For the long term I am thinking about still allowing the Beam and Bolt when you are running a DD or triple, but limiting it to single damage. This may be a more acceptable solution.
Unfortunately, I cannot leave even the double damage working with the bolt or beam - it is less likely to be exploited, but still possible.

If AMs had refrained from using the exploit, I could have taken more time and got a better solution in place. But I needed a solution in place ASAP so whenever Druid did the build the exploit would stop.

So, hopefully, I should be able to get an update which allows the bolt and beam to work with the udamages, but only doing single damage.

As for the other changes, I believe they also were necessary. I did take note of everyone's posts, as I always do. Some people (typically AMs) thought that no other changes were necessary. Others were concerned about the effect that the bolt was having on gameplay. Where there was doubt, I went with the options that went towards balanced team play rather than individual scores.

The deathmatch limitation was necessary. Otherwise low level AMs could get too much xp too easily by killing high level players.

The timer on bolt/beam was necessary, partly to stop people getting around the deathmatch limitation. But stop and think. If you go into a room and feel you need to fire the bolt three times within a second, how does that affect gameplay for everyone else?

And bolt was overpowered as an unaimed shot, so needed a greater gap between it and the aimed beam.

I do not see a major issue with those changes, as they mainly remove exploits, and especially since they are not in the core AM abilities but are merely in some of the mage addons.