Engineer -- Adrenaline vs Time Limit

So, I'd like to throw up a discusson thread about engineers.

In the last trial (and I know things have changed a lot since then) engineers skills were based around adrenaline.

I've been wondering if maybe instead we should use a cool down time on each thing they do. Maybe a block takes a second to cool down, but a sentinel takes 45 seconds, and a tank takes 30 seconds, and a link turret takes 25, or something along these lines.

It also might make the UI simpler to have it time based, and have it count down with the cool down time remaining.

Thoughts?

Would the plan be to change the monster summoning to be time-based as well? Since the two skill sets are very similar, and it would seem strange for one to work one way, and the other differently.

Your suggested algorithm is that the "bigger" the thing you summon, the longer before you can summon something else. (I presume the timing is from when they summon it, not from when it is destroyed? I also presume you are still planning on keeping building/turret/engineer points?)

This would mean you could never summon two "big" things in quick succession.

At the moment, if an Engineer's adrenaline is full, he could spawn one thing for himself and one for someone else. If we change it to timing, then the Engineer would only be able to spawn one thing, which obviously he would take himself. This change might make engineers share less, which I wouldn't be keen on.

However, adrenaline is a valuable resource. If it was on a timer, then it would be "free", so they might be more willing to spend it on other people.

So I am not sure. I suppose I need to understand more why you think adrenaline based isn't working? Is it the long start-up time before you can spawn your first thing? The fact that the adrenaline is a sort of bank you can build up, so you can buy multiple things at once? Or because engineers ought to have the adrenaline for artifacts, and not have to waste it building stuff?

If it is the first reason, I find the lightning sentinel helps a lot. Just get the adrenline together for that, and it is quite good at taking out low level monsters, and getting more adrenaline for you. And are engineers allowed to have adrenaline drip?

TheDruidXpawX wrote:

It also might make the UI simpler to have it time based, and have it count down with the cool down time remaining.

Another problem mentioned elsewhere is that the base Engineer skill set costs too much.

One option for simplifying the interface would be to combine building/turret/vehicle points into one thing "construction points". This would make the UI less cluttered, and reduce the skills engineers have to buy. It would then be a case of balancing the points, so
a block might be one point
a link turret 15 points
a scorpion 20 points.

Might not even need to limit to 3 turrets, 2 vehicles, 20 buildings or whatever it is.

Of course, if you go down the cool down time idea instead, you might not need points at all?

Szlat wrote:

Would the plan be to change the monster summoning to be time-based as well? Since the two skill sets are very similar, and it would seem strange for one to work one way, and the other differently.

That makes a lot of sense. It might make the monsters more useful too.

Szlat wrote:

Your suggested algorithm is that the "bigger" the thing you summon, the longer before you can summon something else. (I presume the timing is from when they summon it, not from when it is destroyed? I also presume you are still planning on keeping building/turret/engineer points?)

Yeah, based upon summon time. I'm not sure we'd need the points after that, since the cooldown time would ultimately cap the skills. I still think we'd need a server coded max thingies per player.

Szlat wrote:

This would mean you could never summon two "big" things in quick succession.

And depending on the server cap, maybe never two X things at all <shrug>

Szlat wrote:

At the moment, if an Engineer's adrenaline is full, he could spawn one thing for himself and one for someone else. If we change it to timing, then the Engineer would only be able to spawn one thing, which obviously he would take himself. This change might make engineers share less, which I wouldn't be keen on.

Or at least until the cooldown ends, then they might spawn another thingy.

Szlat wrote:

However, adrenaline is a valuable resource. If it was on a timer, then it would be "free", so they might be more willing to spend it on other people.

I think as long as we have cooldowns and max thingies, we'll be ok.

Szlat wrote:

So I am not sure. I suppose I need to understand more why you think adrenaline based isn't working? Is it the long start-up time before you can spawn your first thing? The fact that the adrenaline is a sort of bank you can build up, so you can buy multiple things at once? Or because engineers ought to have the adrenaline for artifacts, and not have to waste it building stuff?

Well, there's a few things. It's difficult for an engineer to build anything to start with. That and I'm not sure conceptually that adrenaline is the right thing to make vehicles.

I also think it would make the mechanic of being an engineer significantly different from an adrenaline master.

Szlat wrote:

If it is the first reason, I find the lightning sentinel helps a lot. Just get the adrenline together for that, and it is quite good at taking out low level monsters, and getting more adrenaline for you. And are engineers allowed to have adrenaline drip?

If we can't do cooldown, then they'll have to be allowed some form of adrenaline drip, but I dont think they can use the skill right now.

Currently, items to be summoned have 3 requirements - adrenaline required, points and the level of the LoadedEngineer ability.

Is the following what we are after?

Remove adrenaline requirements for summoning turrets/vehicle/buildings. Keep the points required, and the LoadedEngineer level requirement

Have "Construction points" as a combined replacement for turret points, building points and vehicle points

Have a "ClassEngineer" class, as now

Have a "LoadedEngineer" ability essentially as now. Gives you the Engineers Link gun. Multiple levels to allow better items to be constructed.

Have a "Construction points" ability (to replace AbilityTurretPoints etc) that increase your maximum number of construction points

Keep the summonable things in 3 lists as now (buildings, turrets, vehicles). Have a max number that can be summoned for each type. Do we want a separate count for sentinels?

When an engineer summons something, knock that many points off his current construction points. Drip them back to him at a rate of 1 point every so many seconds (configurable)

Perhaps have a "SummoningRegen" ability that for each level increases the rate at which points are dripped back. So perhaps base rate is one point per 10 seconds, level 1 1pt/9 secs, level 2 1pt/8 secs, level 3 1pt/7 secs. Not too many levels.

Have abilities ConstructionHealthBonus, ShieldRegen, VehicleEject, WheeledVehicleStunts as now
So, no use of adrenaline. Maximum limits for each type.

We will need to get the points for each object correct. Could have blocks as zero points, then points could pretty much stop as they are now. However, if we say doubled or tripled what the current points requirements are, it would give us more scope for balancing things. We will need to set the drip level based on how we set the item requirements.

So, Dru, is the above what you are after, or do you want to do away with construction points entirely?
Is that case:

what you can spawn will be dependent only upon the level of Loaded Engineer you have

Once you have spawned something, it counts down until you can spawn again. I suppose all you need on the hud will be the counter, since there will be no points etc to display

Once you let me know, I'll look into fixing it.

Is there anything else on the Engineer's we need to fix?

Ok, here's what I'm thinking...

1) Cooldown instead of adrenaline. Once you make a thing, no matter what the thing is, there's an interval before you can build a new any other thing. I think this would be useful to show on HUD.

*Perhaps* a high level skill that speeds up the cooldown.

This way, as an engineer, I have to choose to build fortifications, turrets, or the few vehicles I can spawn in a certain order dependent on the map features.

2) We still need a points system for the different categories, but I dont think we need to actively show the person what it is.

3) I think we need to tie the points system directly to the level of Loaded Engineer, and eliminate the other skill.

4) Very limited vehicles & turrets. My current thoughts are:
Automatic Turrets:
Minisentinel, sentinel. No health/armor regen for these.
Vehicles:
The toilet seat, the scorpion, The smaller link turret (not automatic), and the paladin for the high levels... maybe, maybe, maybe the tank.
Buildings:
I don't have any concrete opinions yet, as I haven't tried the new building goodies

The reason for the limited vehicle list has more to do with these vehicles being the most defensive of the batch.

While it would be nice to show the end user how many whatever-points they had used, unless you want to build a complex hud for it, I think it will be more confusing than it's worth. Otherwise, just a message saying they've used their points may be sufficient.... Of course I could be totally off my rocker...

I guess the reason I dont think we need a hud for points is because I think we should simplify what things cost...

For example, You can summon 2 or 3 minisentinels, or 1 big sentinel at a high level.

Building points probably build a block each, so hopefully it's fairly obvious.

Vehicles I think should have point values that never allow you to summon more than 1 vehicle... maybe two or three couple of the toilet seat vehicles because they're just silly fun.... but the point is to force you into one vehicle that's well tuned for your level and for the map.

I'll start looking into making the changes.

One thought:

TheDruidXpawX wrote:

1) Cooldown instead of adrenaline. Once you make a thing, no matter what the thing is, there's an interval before you can build a new any other thing.

Just trying to think things through. What we are proposing is that wave 1 starts, and immediately an engineer can summon his top bit of kit. In the meantime, Medics and AMs have got to go gathering weapons and adrenaline before they can do anything. LWs are up to go from the start, but I think that fits in with their role.

How about a slight change? When something gets spawned, it has 1 health, and so the Engineer has to spend the next 5 or 10 secs 'building' it up to it's full health with the link? Fits in better with the concept of Engineers building something.
And would slow the engineers down a bit at the start of the first wave.

OK, finished re-writing the Engineer stuff. Just testing, and if no problems should put in cvs tonight.

No more adrenaline requirements.

So, you buy AbilityLoadedEngineer (max level 15)
For each level you get 1 point in each of buildingpoints, sentinelpoints, turretpoints and vehiclepoints
(I have separated sentinels from turrets, as I think they are significantly different things)

The list of items that are spawnable are configured in the UT2004RPG.ini file.
For each one you specify what type it is (building,sentinel,turret or vehicle) and

Points - how many points it costs to spawn. This puts the check in to allow you to have 2 small things or 1 big thing.

StartHealth - how much health it starts with. This can be set to the same value as NormalHealth below, so it starts with full health. Or you could set it to say 10, so the engineer has to finish constructing it with the link gun

NormalHealth - the normal maximum health for the item

RecoveryPeriod - how many seconds before the engineer can spawn something else

It is also possible to specify in the UT2004RPG.ini the maximum number of each type someone is allowed to spawn.

We will need to work out how many points for each item in order to balance. That will be a different post.

When you want to spawn something, it checks you are not still in your cooldown period from your last spawn. It checks that you have sufficient points left to spawn this item. And it checks you haven't already got the maximum number spawned.
If ok, it spawns the item with StartHealth health, removes that many points from your available points, and sets the cooldown timer. This gets shown on the Hud.

When a spawned item is destroyed, you gain back the points that were used creating it. It does not terminate the cooldown timer if it is active.

What does the Hud show?
Under the artifact icon it says something like "Points: 5/15". Meaning this item costs 5 points and you currently have 15 you have not used. I have color coded it green if you can spawn it, red if you cant due to points or cooldown. The cooldown timer is a big white number next to the icon.

AbilityConstructionHealthBonus works as before - it increases the Start and Max healths by a percentage.
ArmorRegen and ArmorVampire work as before.

There is scope for two more abilities:

an ability that speeds up the cooldown process

an ability to increase the StartHealth up to the NormalHealth. It doesn't take long to charge it up, but one stray rocket can wipe it out if it only has 10 health.
I think initially lets not do them, and see how it goes without.

Ok. The configuration. There will be need to lots of discussion and trials to get this right. As a starting point, we could go with something like:

Maximums:
MaxSentinels=2
MaxTurrets=1
MaxVehicles=2
MaxBuildings=20

Points:
Lightning Sentinel Points=2 StartHealth=10 NormalHealth=300 RecoveryPeriod=40
Sentinel Points=5 StartHealth=50 NormalHealth=700 RecoveryPeriod=60

Minigun Turret Points=6 StartHealth=10 NormalHealth=500 RecoveryPeriod=60
Ball Turret Points=8 StartHealth=30 NormalHealth=600 RecoveryPeriod=70
Link Turret Points=10 StartHealth=50 NormalHealth=700 RecoveryPeriod=80

Scorpion Points=6 StartHealth=10 NormalHealth=300 RecoveryPeriod=40
Manta Points=10 StartHealth=10 NormalHealth=300 RecoveryPeriod=70
Paladin Points=12 StartHealth=50 NormalHealth=800 RecoveryPeriod=90
Goliath Points=15 StartHealth=100 NormalHealth=800 RecoveryPeriod=120

Small Block Points=1 StartHealth=1000 NormalHealth=1000 RecoveryPeriod=5
Block Points=1 StartHealth=2000 NormalHealth=2000 RecoveryPeriod=10

Thoughts?

Thoughts on the above:

Perhaps the blocks need to have more health? I am not sure you can "heal" a block, so it needs to start at full health.

From playing on a test server, so no idea what it will be like on DC, the sentinels are great for the first few waves, and get loads of kills. Then they become relatively useless. The increased firepower of the monsters just wipes them out. The lightning sentinel is great at distracting monsters, but that means it takes a lot of damage - so you end up constantly healing it.

The turrets last slightly longer if you have maxed armor vampire and armor regen, but the time taken to turn round to face each enemy means that you take a couple of shots from each one you kill. Again you are a sitting duck for things like behemoths, warlords and giant gasbags. It may be worth increasing the NormalHealth of say the Link Turret to give it a chance in the mid waves.

Vehicles. The config above means you can have 2 scorpions, or 1 of the other three vehicles. Seems about right. From tests, the scorpion and goliath don't fair too well late on. But that will also depend on the map. It's only the Manta where you can dodge fire that gives you a reasonable chance. But a health of just 300 means that without ArmorVampire it will not last long.

So, the basic sequence is:
level 1.......blocks
level 2.......lightning sentinel
level 5.......sentinel
level 6.......scorpion and minigun turret ... if Dru wants it in
level 8.......ball turret ... if Dru wants it in
level 10.....link turret and Manta ... if Dru wants it in
level 12.....paladin
level 15.....goliath ... if Dru wants it in
so there are lots of gaps. It would be nice to fill them with something.

Of course, an alternative would be to not have separate points for each type, but have them pooled. So I could get a goliath, or a Manta and a Sentinel, or a link turret and 5 blocks.

Just a note to highlight that abilities
AbilityBuildingPoints
AbilityVehiclePoints
AbilityTurretPoints
have been removed.

I also got rid of the KillAllBuildings, KillAllTurrets and KillAllVehicles artifacts.
Once you have built it, it is there. Chances are it will have been destroyed by the time you get to be able to summon something else anyway.

However, as a safety I left in that anything you have summoned still gets destroyed when the engineer dies.