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A proposed Magic Weapon Enhancing system...  XML
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KohanX

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Joined: 03/04/2006 13:40:23
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...To replace the current one. The current one is fine, I suppose, but who knows? Change can be good.

So my idea is that you have one artifact that deals with the enhancement of Magical Weapons (replacing Max, Double, and +1). This artifact would always (unless the Magical property has no penalties or bonuses) increase the modifier of the weapon by one. The Adrenaline cost would vary, depending on the magical property. It would essentially be the following:
Code:
 Cost = Floor(100 / (MaxM - MinM) * (CurM - MinM + 1) + 100 / (MaxM - MinM) * (CurM - MaxM));

Boy, that's a mouthful. Anywhere that there is an M (except Max()), it stands for 'Modifier'. The Floor() truncates the result, in case anyone didn't know.

Let's put it into an example: a Knockback weapon. It has a maximum and minimum modifier of +6 and +2. Right off the bat, that means we have a base cost of 25 (6-2=4, 100/4=25). That 25 is multiplied based upon how high the Bonus currently is. So, in the case of Koackback, it would be something like this (row 1: current bonus, row 2: cost to increment):
Code:
  +2| +3| +4| +5
  25| 50| 75|100

Now, earlier I said that this would always work ('cept non-bonus weapons). When going over the normal limit, it adds double the amount to the normal adrenaline cost (along with making the weapon automatically starred), so you get an extended table that looks like this:
Code:
  +2| +3| +4| +5| +6| +7| +8| +9|...
  25| 50| 75|100|150|200|250|300|...

And so on. Now, you may be thinking "But that means people with 250 adrenaline could have a +8 Knockback!". That is true, yes, but do you want to spend a total of 850 Adrenaline to go from +2 to +8? Or 450 just to go from +6 to +8? See, though it's possible, it puts the user in a decisive position; Adrenaline doesn't (quickly) grow on trees. They also have to consider whether it's worth spending on someone else, if they plan to give it away.

Any questions? I'll be happy to answer. Comments? Gratefully accepted. I would love to hear everyone's opinion on this. If you want an example of another magical property, I can also supply those with glee.

PS: If you have a normal weapon, it will become a +damage weapon.
Grizzled_Imposter

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Like it

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Szlat

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I am not at all sure about the bit

KohanX wrote:
... + 100 / Max(0, (CurM - MaxM))) 

It seems to me when CurM gets to the value of MaxM you will get a divide by zero. Not good.

That bit looks like its included so that once you get to the Max, it adds on extra. But the higher CurM gets the lower 100 / Max(0, (CurM - MaxM)) is, so you are adding on progressively less. Note also that you want the effect to come into play when CurM is MaxM, so it should be (1+CurM - MaxM). So, the extra bit should perhaps have been:

Code:
... + (100 / (MaxM - MinM)) * Max(0, (1 + CurM - MaxM)))


Having put that to one side, there are two main changes introduced by this algorithm.
  • Weapons can go as high as you like, provided you spend enough adrenaline. This is dangerous. The max limits on weapons are very finely balanced to make them as useful as possible. Once you go above the maximums, you risk throwing the game out of balance. For example, on a high adrenaline map like family room you could probably get the 2000 adrenaline required to make a Protection+10 weapon by about wave 6. Then you are pretty much invulnerable for the rest of the game. If you had an energy+8, how long could you keep a triple/globe combination running for? The Double Modifier allows modifiers to go this high, but only on a temporary basis - the adrenaline is draining fast. A permanent change is a different matter altogether.
  • Certain weapon types can be negative or positive, but not zero. E.g. luck weapons. At the moment you can max a misfortune weapon to be a luck weapon. However, a luck weapon cannot be +0, so the stepwise increment of the modifier will not work. Code could be put in to stop the increase, but then you are stuck with the misfortune weapon.

    And the change from a normal weapon to a +1 weapon isn't just a question of increasing the modifier. The normal weapon is not an RPGWeapon, so you have to destroy the old weapon and create a new one of the RW_Damage class.
  • KohanX

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    Ah, yes, well, I was half-asleep when I was trying to figure out that formula from what I wanted it to do. I'll fix it in a bit.

    Szlat wrote:
    Weapons can go as high as you like, provided you spend enough adrenaline. This is dangerous. 

    I am prepared to face that challenge, and give you my opinions in the following replies.

    Szlat wrote:
    ...make a Protection+10 weapon by about wave 6. Then you are pretty much invulnerable for the rest of the game. 

    For magical properties that reduce damage, I would suggest either lowering the amount that is absorbed for each plus, or making the absorbed percentage cumulative. Say, instead of looking at it as -10%, look at it as 90%, and then 81%, 72%, 65%, et cetera. You could very well stick with decreasing the amount given, or not even at all. Luckily, Protection has a damage cap of 10, no matter how much is absorbed.
    UPDATE: Oh, the cap actually has a different function; more of a 'Second Chance' type thing; a hit that would normally kill you, along with your health being above ten, instead puts your health at ten (hence 'HealthCap'). Yay for anti-titan-rocks. But putting a cap on how much is protected wouldn't be a bad idea. Say, somewhere between two and five.
    ANOTHER UPDATE: As though the heavens rained down on me, it turns out Protection maxes at +9. Ooooh, burn! But I still see your point.

    Szlat wrote:
    If you had an energy+8, how long could you keep a triple/globe combination running for? 

    I had never seen that point. (FYI, +6 is the max for Energy) We'd have a 12%-of-damage increase in adrenaline... Or you could take either of the paths I suggested above. Oh! Actually, you could have Energy weapons halve their bonus (or deny it completely) when Adrenaline is being used for something.

    Szlat wrote:
    Certain weapon types can be negative or positive, but not zero. E.g. luck weapons. 

    I have anticipated this. My thoughts are that they become a +0, but are prefixed with 'Nulled' or 'Mundane' along with their Magical Property, to let people know that it *can* be increased to a higher level of that Magical Property, but it has no power at that point (other than the weapon's standard power).

    Szlat wrote:
    The normal weapon is not an RPGWeapon, so you have to destroy the old weapon and create a new one of the RW_Damage class. 

    I anticipated that as well, and am studying the Magic Weapon Maker on how to do that.

    See, this formula expects balance, regardless of whether it is there. If there is a weapon that goes from -10 to +10, it assumes that one point is worth very little, and so allows for the true maximum to go much higher. But if there is a minimum and maximum of 0 and +3, it will know that one point is worth a heck of a lot. As far as I can tell (without trying to be biased), this formula is balanced, and if any weapons say otherwise, they need to be tweaked. In fact, I think that could very well work. This tool should be used with all of the weapon types. If something seems off, change around the max/min modifiers, and the amount that is modified per plus or minus. This could work! Hmm... wow...

    Thanks very much for the feedback, and just making me think. Let me know your take on my replies. I'm off to fix the formula.

    Hmm... as far as the divide-by-zero problem, D'you think I should just make it a three-liner? The normal, then if (CurM>MaxM), then the extra?
    Grizzled_Imposter

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    Szlat wrote:
    If you had an energy+8, how long could you keep a triple/globe combination running for? 


    I know that I can run tripple and globe as long as there are monsters to shoot at with an energy flack +3, I don't know about higher caus my LA character is not that high of level yet!

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    Shantara

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    Assuming that you could actually balance out everything you've suggested (and based on Szlat's points, I'm not convinced of that), I'm still not clear on why you would want to do this. It only seems to make higher level LAs more powerful and greatly weaken lower level LAs, which would throw off the balance of the game.

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    Szlat

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    I once made an artifact that you could use to increase any modifier by +1. This was before Druid did the Plus One modifier, except mine didn't have an upper limit, you could just keep going up. Mine had a random factor in it, so the more + you were above the maximum, the more unlikely you were for the + to work, so you would waste the adrenaline. But it was still ridiculous. Once you get to the +15s or +20s there is no game left. There is no balance between those that have the +1 artifact and those that haven't. So, I am not in favour.

    However, on reflection, I feel there are perhaps changes that could be made to the magic weapon types. I am a simple sort of guy, and I like things simple, and the current system confuses me.

  • Min and Maxes. Why does a vorpal go from +6 to +10, a null entropy go from +1 to +6, and a vampire go from +3 to +7? It would be a lot easier to understand if all magic weapon type had the same range, say +1 to +5. Obviously allow the negatives where relevant. You would have to scale the magic effect so a new +5 energy would have the same effect as an old +3 energy, but it would be simpler for new starters to understand.
  • damage bonus. Why does an infinite magic type (very powerful) get a +3% on damage, whilst a luck weapon only gets +1% on damage? Why do Vorpals get +10% per plus on +6 to +10, whilst penetrating only gets +2% on +1 to +6? It doesn't seem very balanced to me. It ends up with lots of the magic types being rejected not due to magic type but due to the lack of damage it does. I would prefer all magic weapons to be consistent and have the same damage % per plus. So differentiate them on their magic, not on the damage. But yes, have a different value for the RW_Damage class, because it's magic is in doing extra damage.
  • Having done both of the above, there may be some adjustment of power of magic types to be done to get the weapons balanced. Is a maxed out energy better than a maxed out RW_Damage, or is the maxed out Vampire best, and who cares about a maxed out Sturdy. There are situations where each magic class can be the most effective, but if everyone is always favouring one class, then perhaps boost the magic on the not-so-popular ones.

    Just some thoughts.
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