Concerns on engineer balance

DrkSlayer wrote:

LW's have many disabilities compared to the eng's.. the reason why we are having problems keeping up at lvl 61 I believe is for a few factors

We just reached lw lvl5... after saving points to get it.. yeah good guns(sometimes) but no life +'s or regen, vamp... or other skills.
The regen, vamp, wep speed can't keep up as quickly as the eng's dmg

Yeah we're meant to run around killing things, and the fort's do have a benefit to place a trans at.. but in general, we just can't do as much damage. If you've got two sents sitting there shooting all day, while your running around blasting things with your inf link.. While the LW's pray they come across a MWM to fix that sturdy 1 flak.. see where I'm going?

Suggestion.. what if we could get all of our mines back from the old days..pre medic.. and raise the wep speed up.

Just gotta mention, LW players can hand out guns to all other classes, so the one's that don't get any mines or other guns not hosted on the map can get them in a freebee way.. Maybe we just need higher wep speed and more mines.. ( or that awesome more skill post) I played with a lvl 98 and the score was above mine.. not that it's the real matter, but I wish I could have been lvl 98 beating a lvl 193. Yeah engeers peak at lvl 70, or so I've heard but LW's peak at 150? So all that extra exp they get would quickly pass a Lw player at a lower lvl, just mean's everyone's going to eventually be an engineer. I think the LA's are the best class, at higher lvl's but no one has a chance against the engineers.

Looking at the balance of all of the classes, I don't see as many "disabilities" in the Weapon master as I do in all of the others. They are the most rounded class with the least deficiencies of all of them.

If you decided to purchase LW 5 by that early of a level, you were purposefully choosing not to buy other skills that you say that you don't have, the engineer class does not do a larger amount of inherent damage than the Weapon Master class.

As for level equaling effectiveness I had the pleasure to play my level 70 something (at the time) weapons master when Fro was playing a classless character, he beat my score handily with about 40 levels between us. Its not all the way you build the character or the skills that you buy, some players are just better than others, some players are luckier and some know what they are doing when they make a paticular character. I have had the experience of beating out a level 90 medic using my level 21 adrenal master, when I joined the map on wave 7 and he had been there from the beginning.

I agree with you about one thing tho. engineers are easy to play compared to any other class.

Grizzled is right the WM class is most well rounded one as its the heart of UT04 to begin with..

..juggling ur weapons and choosing which one is right...followed by adren usage

Providing yes you cant buy advanc. DB until 75+ but you CAN get resupply on all weps...and CAN max out ur DB..if you choose not to your choice, just like some Engis choose to max their Loaded b4 their DB and wep speed....just like some WM choose to max theres first too..(and Resupply..which is much better than just a engi link)
The WM class also has the regen and Vamp..which you can buy at any lvl..The engis loose it at 41 never to regain it and never have vamp for their health...they dont have drip either so for them to use the globe or triple would be pointless due to adren usage...The WM, MM have the drip..and the AMs have the leech....the engis have their sents which in order to get adren must pic it up or make kills
The engi cant jump in the thick of the battle....and they may have turrets..but turrets cant dodges thou regen and vamp is there..it just delays in evitable

Engi class by far is easiest to play...that may change with he new changes to be implemented..
However there is skill in play...skill in what you but (skill wise) and skill in knowing where to be to get most kills in ALL the classes...Ive been able to get higher (not much) score than some players who are WM and 150 as a medic.?Does it mean Im great player...nope..Definatly by no means...just dumb luck..(and i was last alive on the titan wave 2x..o_o...that took so long.XD)
though at the moment engis have more than dumb luck for now...soon it will depend on the luck more and less on the sents

Ps IMO Medics are least effective class score wise....well classless have less advantage..but then again...they arent class..

So thus Player skill is always a factor in these things

I think that with the new sent limits engs will score similar to medics, at least for medium-high levels. I've tried to play quite a few games with the new limits in mind and didn't get to 2000 yet. I am lvl 90ish now and I dont see me much improving as I level. Yesterday I played one game with lvl150ish WM and I scored above 2000 in that one and only game (and there were 8+ players on and I think at least 3 of them were engs, so no complaining that engs steal too much kills. I was easily leading the whole game, although there were other decent levels on. The WM is tuned perfectly in my opinion and can take some serious beating, but it takes some time to build it right.)

Wonko The Sane wrote:

....but it takes some time to build it right.)

>outburst<:Sorta like Jenga tower!..

!......erm i mean...Ahem...>_>...sry about that

Yeah I guess it depends the map too..some maps are more engi favouring than others..and some are more WM/AM favouring....

-Jason_X- wrote:

Yeah I guess it depends the map too..some maps are more engi favouring than others..and some are more WM/AM favouring....

I agree with Jason on that part about the maps having something to do with it. As many of us here do, I play with a few different classes and see what one fits where. I haven't been on in a while, but I still feel that the engineers excel is places where their sents and weapons like the inf link are really affective. And the block defenses can be used as a good way to keep yourself alive and others.
But at the same time, more open maps allow the vehicles for quicker movement, but less defense when you're being chased down by the monsters. These open places are more where the other classes excel or blend a lot better. (i.e. Engs and Medics work very well together in smaller maps because the eng can provide defense while the medic heals those who need it without leaving the safety area the eng created.) While the more open maps like ONS (or just really big and open DM maps) are more suited to the all out warfare tactics of the WM and AM classes.
The type and size Maps add to the fairness just as much as the skill of the players or the type of class they choose to play as.

This sort of belongs here.

I think with the new limits its going to be OK, but have you considered a posibility that there are certain monsters that the sentinel would not attack? I'd say nalis, for the following reasons:
- they are imune to magic, so it would kind of make sense to make them imune to sent attacks too
- when there are engineers around its nearly impossible to get headhunter , the sents take them out to quickly (this mostly impacts non engineers)
- the way I see nalis, they are a race which appear out of nowhere and stab you in the back while you are fighting serious monsters. The sents kill their purpose. Life of a nali has no meaning now. :]

Sounds good, except those shield ones. Can't get a good head shot on one without one of them coming up and hitting you with their shield gun. All other, immune.

Fox_N.E.X.U.S. wrote:

Sounds good, except those shield ones. Can't get a good head shot on one without one of them coming up and hitting you with their shield gun. All other, immune.

That would be tedious...IMO...Maybe not....but how about it just ..doesnt deal them as much damage..(then again nalis are sorta...frail....so maybe...It shoots but misses?..Eh I have lame ideas..

..)
So either just overall better defense against sents..or just not attack by them..

I totally agree with wonko, BINGO is impossible (the old days were much, much different than now), which I've been trying for the first or second map until I just give up. Maybe Bingo v2... post eng's.. could be a new thing? If you can make it on that list.. and that's a big IF. I'm not one to complain but I must make exceptions, I just don't get why someone 1/2 ur lvl or less than that can blow you away..? Maybe I'm just not as good of a player as I had hoped. Guess I've just gotta go with the flow.

Dark Slayer dont be frustrated by the ongoing imbalance issues concerning engineers, remember it is a fairly new class and everyone is working hard to bring them back down to where they should be - In my opinion they are still overpowered - but that wont change even if they start nerfing the turrets, etc. as the top engineer will soon be into the triple digits for XP and will be getting most of these downgrades back at higher lvl.

It is definitely not that you are not a good player, I remember going head to head against you with my WM on many maps and couldnt pull away until the later waves, which made sense as I was a lvl 250+ and I think you were not even a lvl 100 yet!

The way the game is played on this server is completely different now, I hate to keep repeating myself but its true, too many times I have seen players panicking because "there is nowhere to hide!" or "Where is the base!" , it used to be most WM and medics would turn there noses up at the thought of hiding, myself included. Honestly though I have a lot more fun playing now with my LA than I ever did as a WM >

I agree with Micron. Isn't the entire engineer thing technically still in public beta testing for us?
p.s. I was probably one of the ones scrambling to find a safe place to hide as a medic when I first started here. And yeah, it's really changed since then.

Fox_N.E.X.U.S. wrote:

I agree with Micron. Isn't the entire engineer thing technically still in public beta testing for us?
p.s. I was probably one of the ones scrambling to find a safe place to hide as a medic when I first started here. And yeah, it's really changed since then.

I echo your ditto....(echo-ditto?)
It'll take a while but it'll get there..

....to a balance that is..
In the mean time dont jump on the engis back..they mean no harm....(Well...ok they mean harm to the monsters)..Not to mention you may break their backs..not suggestible..o.0

Also Yeah when i first started out as medic i hide..alot...Combo of first time playing INV ever...And first time playing RPG UT ever...Sooo..Very new experience for me....With lots of running from hordes...

..(especially seeing the vamp flies came in one month after I joined...

....)

Ps Why doesnt the

Emote not work when you do the > : D combo?

Well Now changes are implemented and I think it looks balanced..But I tried a lil experiment which I never got around to b4
That is:
Linking a turret (sometimes healing the sents) for an entire game..

I and another engineer called Nekoneer did this on CTF-Cola wars With Roadwork in a turret and well here are the results:

Roadworks score

Road's stats from this game

My stats (sorta low)

(Didnt get neko's...map switched)

So seeing 2 players linked his turret just about the entire game this gave a Boost of ...Well...I forget the number..but a decent amount (and as a result a decent amount of xp...His turret stayed up for entire primary titan wave)

So considering this would be case of teamwork Is this a balance?...

We've been doing that for a while now Jason. I tried several times with Miss Kitty or DrkSlayer in the turret. Kitty got score above 2200 (she never got more than 2000 as her weapon master alone). DrkSlayer got 2400 once, Both got more than 300 turret kills (the DC record for turret kills is blade's for now, with 210 kills). My goal is to get DrkSlayer score above 3000 and 400 turret kills. I think it can be done, as he had more than 2000 before wave 12 began, but we all died than (basically, I died, than both my defensive sents and the turret went down and than everybody else died in a few seconds).

In all the tries we made, I was the only higher level engineer, it would be a lot easier if there was someone else that could also build 2 defensive sentinels too.

With the engineer inside the turret + normal sent you should be able to get pretty decent scores (I don't think colawars is very good map for that, try either version of the deck or gael. If you position everything right, you can finish wave 6 with more than 1000 score alredy without the sent)!

Kitty's screenshots (not the game where she did the best, but still, look at the turret kills)

True...But This is the Engineer balance thread...
and Roadwork is a 75 engineer...
So seeing now he scores only a lil under 2k WITH help..it means that its been balanced down rationally

That was my point..

.....Not to mention this was engis linking one engi...so thus Im saying balance is now closer or is achieved IMO..

as the engis dont get crazy scores ..even with lots of engi boosting...

Ps Could I have said engi any more in that post?

..