Concerns on engineer balance

One point to note is that Fro got a score of around 1700 as a lvl 61 classless player. Therefore it is possible for all classes to achieve at least that at level 61. (I know that Fro cannot be considered typical by any stretch of the imagination, but he is the only person I know who had a level 61 classless character. And we are talking high scores here - which is the domain of the exceptional players)
So it ought to be possible for all classes to achieve 1800-2500 by level 61 - if an exceptional player plays the class really well - since all classes have some benefits.

Micron showed that with his score of 2300+ for a LA lvl 63. (And he hasn't posted that as a high score)
Wonko was getting around 1700 for his <70 Engineer.
I haven't seen any reports of <70 medics getting >1700, but ECHO got 1653 with his medic lvl 61. And medics always get distracted by healing.

So, why are we not seeing the same from WMs?

my high score with my weapon master was when he was in the 50s, 17hundred something....BTW I hit 1500 something with my adren master at level 23, but that was before they nerfed the rod....

fact is tho, most of my high scores are from before the difficulty change......

I think that while WMs have some really cool abilities (vamp, LW mostly) they are on the expensive side and it takes ages to max those. So it was not untill lvl80 that I started to feel comfortable with WM. But from lvl100 on, I could score decent, meaning that if I was in the mood and I liked tha map I could go above 2000. My max high score with it was 2687 (I think, it was a bit less than 2700) atl lvl140ish.

Out of curiosity I played several maps today with one offensive sentinel only. I was usprised, It went a lot better than I expected! Mainly I scored almost the same as with 2 normals, just the ratio weapons/sent kills changed. The main difference was that it actually became a lot harder to survive! I still could finish wave 6 with over 700 and finish 12 with over 1400 but from there on I just kept dying, which was a lot of fun. :] So my max score today was 1800 and something and I got several scores in range 1400-1500. I think thats reasonable score for my level.

Wonko The Sane wrote:

Out of curiosity I played several maps today with one offensive sentinel only. I was usprised, It went a lot better than I expected! Mainly I scored almost the same as with 2 normals, just the ratio weapons/sent kills changed. The main difference was that it actually became a lot harder to survive! I still could finish wave 6 with over 700 and finish 12 with over 1400 but from there on I just kept dying, which was a lot of fun. :] So my max score today was 1800 and something and I got several scores in range 1400-1500. I think thats reasonable score for my level.

Thanks for that. It sounds like it might be about right then, once Druid/Shantara adjust the sentinel costs.

Here is one F3 too if interested. It was Masurao, we all died in wave 13 and there was one medic on. I scored 1740. Looks about 30% sentinel kills.

I get some decent scores as a WP and I've noticed lately that a <100 level engineer has been outscoring me sometimes two to one. I think engineers are a bit overpowered.

Either that or I'm loosing it.

WM players have been forced to change how the class was originally intended to play, there are very few WM players, myself included, who can go head to head with an entire wave of monsters while the rest of the players are safe inside a base where all the health/shield healing is taking place. Because of this WM players are forced to do the same but there is no chance of racking up points when you are competing with sentinels and turrets.......

Dont get me wrong, in my opinion it is much more fun this way and it forces all classes to work together. I have been utilizing my LA team artifacts a lot lately and to be honest I enjoy it much more than when I played as a WM. The problem is that a weapon master can not dominate in this "new" style of playing that has been introduced ever since the engineers showed up and is the main reason I started an LA character. I was constantly getting frustrated as I preferred the old way of playing.

The style of play on the server has completely changed, leaving most WM players with no choice but to change classes to have fun.

just my opinion

I don't care if someone outscores me, players have been doing that since I started here. I'm just thinking a level 97 engineer shouldn't be getting 2X my score. As Barney Fife said, we need to "nip it in the bud", otherwise I see a lot of engineers getting pretty upset when it's discovered later on that they are too powerful and they need to lose some strength.. either that or give WM some more skills

Yeah, on second thought WM need more skills to spend their stats on!

Szlat wrote:

So, why are we not seeing the same from WMs?

Think about it, Szlat. WM and LA used to argue over who was better, but basically they were two sides of the same coin, with their respective strenghts and weaknesses. Now, neither class has the ability to dominate as they used to.

That domination ability now belongs to the engineer class, which is currently the strongest class on the server. A level 70 or so engineer will dominate a map like no WM or LA class ever dreamed of doing at the same skill level. I do not consider the engineer class (as it is currently configured) to be a support/defensive class, but rather an additional offensive class.

I feel that the medic/monster class has been reduced to an afterthought since most low level players will group around a few sentinels and/or blocks for protection. Most medics now follow WM/LA players around and keep them healed to get the points that they used to get in healing the lower level players.

Yes, I know......Some WM/LA players consistly outscore engineers, that is if the WM/LA players are 250+ level. No WM/LA player who is under a 150 level will outscore a 50 or so engineer on a regular basis.

That's why you see the disparity in the scores and levels. I am, by no means, an exceptional player, but even I feel a little frustrated at times that a level 70 engineer can keep up and score only a coupla hundred points less than me (at a 300+ level) by the end of the map.

What we should be seeing is most all level 70 players scoring about the same number of points, give or take a 100 or so.

Firstly yes, Engineers are overpowered at the moment. The second offensive sentinel is too much. When Druid and Shan get round to changing the sentinel costs, Engineers will be down to one offensive sentinel.

So, at that point, once they are limited to one sentinel, we will see engineers down to about 1700 again at level 70-80 - which is about the same as we have posted for medics and AMs. And so at the moment, I suppose I am looking for exceptional players of all classes to be able to achieve around that score.

My question was about why we are not seeing lvl 70-80 WMs scoring 1700? And I am not trying to have a go at anyone here. Is the WM class now underpowered compared with the medic and AM? Or have we just not got many WMs coming up through the ranks? Or is it just that engineers have pinched too much of the score disproportionately from WMs? Or does the WM class just peak later?

Szlat wrote:

My question was about why we are not seeing lvl 70-80 WMs scoring 1700? And I am not trying to have a go at anyone here. Is the WM class now underpowered compared with the medic and AM? Or have we just not got many WMs coming up through the ranks? Or is it just that engineers have pinched too much of the score disproportionately from WMs? Or does the WM class just peak later?

1. WMs tend to peak later.

2. Compared to other classes, they are vastly underpowered on the lower levels.

3. Weapons-wise, the WM kinda get the castoffs until they reach WM 5 or obtain a MWM. Then they can get decent weapons. All other classes have the ability to generate good weapons with adren.

4. It used to be the WM was the easiest class to level up quickly. Now it's the engineer class.

5. Most of the time, the scores are now divided between 3 classes instead of 2.

6. Even extremely talented players normally do not score 1700+ at level 70. WMs generally need to be around 100+ or more for 1700+ points.

FodderFigure wrote:

... Either that or I'm loosing it.

Glad I cant lose it

(cant lose what ya dont got..

WELL in response to ..well..all:

Yeah the engi class just peaks WAAY to early (ie lvl 70) and WAY to much IMO
When the Engi's get less sents and need higher lvls needed for sents it will prolly fall back to the 1K range..which is reasonable
Post link turret removal I dont see them outscoring that way much now..

My medic hit 70 last nite and Scores on a Good game 1k or so...but usually I hit 800-700-600 range....
2 reasons for that being :
My medic from the start was made as a character to try and survive..(its why I created medic ..Cus WM seemed...odd to me and only medics had regen then and could heal themselves..Thus allowing me to be last player int he game..which..Happens a bit...and...can be bad )
On a side note the name Jason means 'healer' heh...Ironically
And thus I dont rlly have much DB nor speed

And that well...If Im shooting at something...and then i see this player with 100 health..and a lava skaarj...Ill go for the player..(cus more players = more fun =more Teamwork......and less me dying ..

..)

As for the Peak of WMs..I dont have a WM ..but I can say they are pretty much some deadly powerhouses..but they peak in the hundreds or so and thus dont score too high in the >100 range ..
However IMHO when they hit around 100-150 ..they can pretty much deal out the power..as in they can stand in one spot..more most of the first 10 waves (except titan wave) and outscore by 2x the medic with 2 pets, who runs all over the map..but still is scraping

(this will vary on map and players of course), due to things like:
Resupply-so no need for ammo runs(no gun runs either since they spawn with them)...
Vamp-so less need for healing(along with regen)
Advanced damage bonus- more bang for your buck
And so forth....

Though...they do need some more stuff to buy for the higher lvls (it could even cost like 50-80 stats..cus there isnt much to do with stats past their current ceiling..

..) Not only for WM but AMs / MMs too (dunno bout the engis....highest is only 100 range..)

So at moment I believe the balance pre 100 post 70 is:
Engi>WM= AM > MM

Post 100:
Engi=WM>AM>MM

After changes(theory):
>100:
WM=AM>engi>MM

<100:
WM>AM>(=)engi>(=)MM (cant rlly say )

Either way its on the high end of supporting class..But AM peaks b4 WM..

...

So yeah my spin on things../\

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

1. WMs tend to peak later.

2. Compared to other classes, they are vastly underpowered on the lower levels.

3. Weapons-wise, the WM kinda get the castoffs until they reach WM 5 or obtain a MWM. Then they can get decent weapons. All other classes have the ability to generate good weapons with adren.

4. It used to be the WM was the easiest class to level up quickly. Now it's the engineer class.

Amen to that.

On another note, perhaps there are engineer abilities that are still available too soon and too cheap (even with the sent limitations in mind).

I'm thinking shield regen, which rules, but takes only 60 to max. Compare that with what you need to max health regen or vampirism (although both are considerably better).

Shield healing: it's perhaps OK that the first level (or the first 2) are cheap, as it supports teamplay, but level 3 is actually a huge benefit for the eng himself too (blast) and is either available too soon or it is too cheap.

LE, hmmm. I know that you scaled this down alredy and changing it again would probobly bring confusion back again (as most players are just out of the negative points now, I guess) but it is at least too cheap if not too soon still (a little better with higher sent costs, but turrets, vehicles and buildings are the same).

I also think the normal sent is a bit high on health. I have construction bonus 7 and this baby can take some beating if it's not titan, null queen or bunny (and the bunny has to sit on top of it to destroy it). I think that if it had the same health at construcions lvl 10 as it has now at lvl7 it might be better.

As for the engineer and its support role: It depends on how you play it. I can be annoying and score spectacular or be a great teamplayer and score 300. If you plant two defensive sentinels in busy area, and run around shield healing and link boostng, I think you can be a huge help to others as engineer! Part of the problem is also that WMs, AMs and MMs need to learn how can they benefit the most from the engineer that is willing to help them. I was suprised how hard it is to convince a non eng that you actually want to linkchain him/her. Some non engineers also don't realize the benefit of defensive sentinels on titan waves, and I've been the last player standing this way on several occasions (I don't mean camping, you can be out in the open, those sent really do their job pretty well).

Well wonko,
Heres the thing..Shield regen is much different than normal regen:

Health regen is continuous-->Shield regen pauses on each hit...

Health regen lvls control the speed..but lvl one will go up to ur max health-->Shield regen controls both your max and your speed..AND is not as nearly effective as health (cus well only shields over 100 prevent total health lost) as some is lost from shields and health under 100..

Then on the turrets and vehicles...GREAT for VINV..VCTF....etc...normal INV....its not a great addition..
The most effective turrets are Energy and the Ball one..
These gain very good effectiveness with engi links (which heal fast and give the power boost) But are only rlly useful in open space maps..I think the turrets are low enough as they are...and the mass kill sprees were due to sents which are being reduced..

Teamwork
Yes the Engi has great potential..which is still growing..
After the engi class it seems Ive become a link medic is in up to wave 10/12 Ill stay with a link and if I pick up an inf link..Ill toss it out so There more chance for linking xp..

Defense sents are underestimated..not only by non engis but also by engis themselves...seriously....get 3 of these def sents placed in good proximity to each other..titans have lots difficulty hitting you Though you do need to dodge still to avoid the stragglers...and you can shoot out some rocks yourself if need be

But relatively the class is still very new..so it will take some time for players to adjust and take use of the classes abilities...

LW's have many disabilities compared to the eng's.. the reason why we are having problems keeping up at lvl 61 I believe is for a few factors

We just reached lw lvl5... after saving points to get it.. yeah good guns(sometimes) but no life +'s or regen, vamp... or other skills.
The regen, vamp, wep speed can't keep up as quickly as the eng's dmg

Yeah we're meant to run around killing things, and the fort's do have a benefit to place a trans at.. but in general, we just can't do as much damage. If you've got two sents sitting there shooting all day, while your running around blasting things with your inf link.. While the LW's pray they come across a MWM to fix that sturdy 1 flak.. see where I'm going?

Suggestion.. what if we could get all of our mines back from the old days..pre medic.. and raise the wep speed up.

Just gotta mention, LW players can hand out guns to all other classes, so the one's that don't get any mines or other guns not hosted on the map can get them in a freebee way.. Maybe we just need higher wep speed and more mines.. ( or that awesome more skill post) I played with a lvl 98 and the score was above mine.. not that it's the real matter, but I wish I could have been lvl 98 beating a lvl 193. Yeah engeers peak at lvl 70, or so I've heard but LW's peak at 150? So all that extra exp they get would quickly pass a Lw player at a lower lvl, just mean's everyone's going to eventually be an engineer. I think the LA's are the best class, at higher lvl's but no one has a chance against the engineers.