Concerns on engineer balance

on adrenaline:

You made me lough out loud, but it is true. You don't run out of adrenaline, you run out of titans.

on light sent vs warlords:
They are all dead? I found too, that light is better on groups of warlords (if you manage to keep it alive). I think its because when 7 or so warlords come, its very likely that 2 or 3 are low on health to begin with. If the normal sent chooses to shoot the one with full health first it takes ages untill anything happens. The light shoots 2 or 3 times and now instead of 7 warlords you have 4 quickly (with their health alredy down somewhat). You squeeze some plasma in there too and you are out of the woods. If the sent survives, that is.

On owning in 2 places in a map:
Actually, in some maps you are able to do it in 3 places and that is the too much thing. In hardcore, you can place one normal sent near flak, one in the room above that and you have those two rooms covered for sub 10 waves. You can go in the room with RL and spread plasma there. I once managed to come out of wave 6 in hardcore with nearly 1000 score alredy.

Next time I see two more 70lvl engs or higher on and a medic or 2, I'll try to convince them that we try to bring someone above 4000. I firmly believe it can be done. I don't think 4000 can be broken in any other way but teamwork, no matter the class, level or skill. I'd love to see it done or at least have a try at it, no matter the class of the headmaster.

Grizzled_Imposter wrote:

... If anyone with a particular skill or thing can score what Wonko is now, and what I have come close to, then the engineer is overpowered. If not, then it is the use of that skill, so it is not inherent in the class but to the player. If a player is good do you adjust the class he is playing to his skill level?

I agree. However, as you pointed out, techniques can be learnt. So what we need is a range of figures back as to how people are doing as Engineers. If everyone is doing too well, then the class is too powerful. If only Wonko gets above 1500, then we build him a pedestal next to Fro's, and leave the class alone.

To start it rolling, I think the high score for my engineer is about 1100 when it was around level 51. I am probably an average player.
Wonko thinks his high score below lvl 70 was around 1700.
Wonko level 88 high score 2741, and numerous scores 2400+.

Can any other engineers give us approx high scores, together with levels? (recent ones please - not ones with link turrets/goliaths)

I have one very small point to make.

Currently using my AM(LA) character I appreciate the engineer class for helping me stay alive because I have somewhere to hide when I need it and that is one of the only reasons why I can play the way I do with an LA character.

However,

The Engineer class has done something to this server that is almost hard to believe; Completely changed the way the game is played for all classes including WM players which is why there are so few WM characters playing anymore.

Even in the old style of playing I did not even get close to 2700 until lvl 250+ and in the new style of play on this server it would be almost impossible unless playing a map where the blocks/sents etc had little or no effect on the map.

The ceiling sents are so effective because nothing ever attacks them, compared to the old ground sents.

Wonko The Sane wrote:

OK, I tried to quote someone that quoted someone that quoted someone but got a bit confused, so I'll just go by myself.

..Know the feeling...

..

On shield sphere: I See your thinking now...but then it would need to be cost/ healing effective enough for players to want to use it...

On cool down times: Well too loong a cool down time means that noone will want to summon them.....if the cool down time is insanly long....then noone will use it...or be more focused on keeping ti alive rather than helping players....resulting in setn camping as well..o_O...

On lightning sents: They are weak defense wise but potent offensively..
Meaning that on certain waves the L.Sent pwns big time..skaarj wave...And warlord wave..(If you can it alive....or yourself..o.0..)
I many a time will summon a ligthning sent on the skaarj wave...and if i get a DD and L.Rod...hahaa the good times i will have..

(actually medic wise if i get rod Im set for this wave....one fo my good medic scoring waves..along with titans...)

on Wonkos untimely titan wave demise: yeah....Ive had that..Set up a swweeet base...go outside....dodge left instead of right...dodged into rock...20 seconds into wave BAM dead..XD.....

on the medic result increase in difficulty: Maybe its time to kick it up a notch?

On medic medic weps: Actually I favoured the link gun right b4 and now even more so with Engi beta...its the most damage persecond and most healing per sec...and the medic is much more durable with their regen and healing blast..(espcially if some other players like PAINKILL or Wayno are on..they help alot..

..) With link for the full game I can score a good 1k+ with a damge bonus of only 36

on sent postioning this is key for decent score..also ..Encouraging players or monsters to certain spots can be too...such as baiting monsters to follow you to ur sent to distract it.../ kill it

On titans: HAHAAA

thats so true the adren always runs out on me after the titans do......
Best Ive gotten is when the titans all swarmed near me cus there were only few players still in....
psBerzerk+DD = Good Times

on the 4k plan Im In depending if you need a medic or engi I can supply both ..Ill be linker for engi..

...

On scoring: I can score around 700-1k In decent games...But you can ask wonko that in the early wave sI spend it setting up base then I star t attacking..by then it can be wave 4 so i loose out on alot of easy kills
Not to mention my points arent spent yet..\/...(I have calculations for when to spend and when not to....due to the having more LE lvl than my lvl should) Not to mention im a mere lvlv 53 compared to 80...
Will provide screens later.....(GOtta go now..)
So yeah....

We are overpowered above level 70, period. I think of myself that my shooting skill is mediocre but I sometimes manage to place my sentinels better than others do. Thats all there is too it, so while it takes some thinking and work it is still far too easy to score high. I did not think it would be so at level 69, but It was revelation when I turned 70 and I am sure grizzled would agree the moment he turned 70.

So the more I think, the more I agree with szlat, second offensive sentinel should go. If I scored 1700 with one sentinel, I guess with some beefing up, ghost and my blast working, I could someday get to 2000 or close. I'd be happy with that, I think this is what guys like TON (that I really respect and is number one in my personal high score table) score. As far as ideas go, I like the one with increased prices the best so far. We should be carefull with 3 defense sentinels also, that might be too much too. My suggestion for prices is therefore (6, 8, 9).

Micron(Micron) wrote:

However,

The Engineer class has done something to this server that is almost hard to believe; Completely changed the way the game is played for all classes including WM players which is why there are so few WM characters playing anymore.

I agree. First of all, there are too many people playing engineers, so there is stuff everywhere. I think this is because the class is new and exciting to try out AND it is (too) easy to play. If we scale down the muber of offensive sentinels we can build, that would help, no? I mean, a defensive sentinel would probobly be welcome by everyone, I don't think those could be annoying?

If they increase the costs as suggested it would also be a bit harder to start an engineer (first sentinel at lvl 36 instead of level 18 and it would be a defensive one until level 42), so perhaps the numbers of engineers would fall, especially once the euphoria cools down.

It is all cool as long as you have engs with common sense there. But if there are 2 really excited engineers there (lets say levels 40 and 75), you have 3 turrets, 2 benders, 3 sentinels, 2 walls and a couple of blocks all inside a map like dismemberment.

This is the good bit:
As far I am concerned the core of engineer is (could be): infinity link, shield boosting, shield blast, one offensive sentinel, provides protection with defense sentinels, links others. That's it, everything else could be removed as far as I am concerned. One shooting box, that's all that you'd see from me, and in most cases it would be on the ceiling, out of your way. Everything else is there for your own good too.

Micron(Micron) wrote:

The ceiling sents are so effective because nothing ever attacks them, compared to the old ground sents.

I would have to disagree on this. Better coverage-yes, but I would not say nothing attacks them, mine fall down about as fast as floor ones do. OK, the pupae can't attack it. Maybe you were observing defense ceiling sentinels, those really aren't getting hurt much, but I don't think that's a problem?

@szlat: minor thing, but my highest score 2741 was not the one with insane help (only jams healing me here and there).
I got over 300 sent kills with insane help and scored 2600 and something that time.

Wonko The Sane wrote:

@szlat: minor thing, but my highest score 2741 was not the one with insane help (only jams healing me here and there).
I got over 300 sent kills with insane help and scored 2600 and something that time.

ok, corrected thanks.

So I think I will request Druid/Shantara to change the sentinels to have costs of 5, 8 and 10.

This means
at 30 you can get a defensive sentinel ( LE5 )
at 48 you can get a lightning sentinel ( LE8 )
at 60 you can get a normal sentinel ( LE10 )
at 70 you can get 2 defensive sentinels (2 sentinel limit)
at 78 you can get a defensive sentinel and a lightning sentinel ( LE13 )
at 90 you can get a defensive sentinel and a normal sentinel ( LE15 )

The ability to have a third sentinel at level 120 is still planned for removal at the next build.

I do not want the figures to be higher than 5,8,10 as I think they delay things enough. Lightning sentinel has to be at least 8 to avoid players being able to buy 2 of them. Normal sentinel has to be higher than the lightning sentinel, and I think level 60 before you can spawn a normal one is high enough.

uuuuh, wow my engineer is not even lvl 60 yet.........

me neither

Wonko I think is the only poster above 70.....Zneer is the highest I believe..At his lvl of 108

Im only at 53 myself.....lesson learnt: need tog et on lvl up quick to comparisons..

..lol..jk

Also IMO the balance occurs at lvl 41-70 ..why 41?..No regen.....
Engi with regen can outscore me no prob and with ghost 2x the power (but thats a choice on my part)..Cus if we had (health) regen wed be vastly overpowered to say the least..o.0..

see some very valid points here especially about the amount of engineers on at one time

with PainKill I can spend all of the later waves (12-16) hiding out healing...not that I want to but I find that there is no one else outside the forts and makes it difficult to make a go of it.
I've seen only a couple of LW s' in the 'middle' range (50-100) Lately : Ghost,Elite and me (RoadKill) , and some n00b characters (under or around 30) and the over 100 - 200 + range guys-gals that are on are fairly independent of the rest of us...so there has been a large change in the gameplay here
, the other night I got on and there were 5 or 6 engineers on 2 LWs and my medic LAs are nearly extinct right now ,actually I think medics outnumber LWs too
kudos to Wonko,Zneer and some other engineers for making an effort to being part of the whole, but I have followed high level LWs around for a map healing them and they dont score as high as a mid ranged engineer does if I follow-heal them

This changes would be pretty rough on engineers, so I think it is going to be fine now. (hey, I just remembered back than we could have 2 normal sentinels at level 20ish! :] )

O, and I was lazy on my LE, have only 12 now (saw no reason to go beyond that before)... So this must be maxed ASAP now.

@painkill: once I get my shielding back and running for real, I'll shield you 'till supershields start jumping out of your ears. I have a great debt to pay you.

Micron(Micron) wrote:

Even in the old style of playing I did not even get close to 2700 until lvl 250+ and in the new style of play on this server it would be almost impossible unless playing a map where the blocks/sents etc had little or no effect on the map.

I noticed last night that your LA character got over 2300, which is quite respectable for a level 63. Especially since the LA class gains more power as it levels - when you can max weapon speed, damage bonus, energy leech etc.
So although 2741 for a level 88 Engineer is too high, it is not in a different ball park to other classes.

Szlat wrote:

Micron(Micron) wrote:

Even in the old style of playing I did not even get close to 2700 until lvl 250+ and in the new style of play on this server it would be almost impossible unless playing a map where the blocks/sents etc had little or no effect on the map.
I noticed last night that your LA character got over 2300, which is quite respectable for a level 63. Especially since the LA class gains more power as it levels - when you can max weapon speed, damage bonus, energy leech etc.
So although 2741 for a level 88 Engineer is too high, it is not in a different ball park to other classes.

I have yet to break 2000 with my weapon master and he is 20 levels higher than that!

Thats a good score! Then again, not a support class, but the one that i see score insane the most often.