Concerns on engineer balance

I was on several of those maps with you. Just my opinion, but the class lends itself to team play in a way that the others do not. Good team play leads to living longer.

As for having a good score, what made anyone think that a class with a couple 0f auto targeting and firing weapons wouldn't have a decent score?

I agree and disagree with this. What are you defining as team play here? A bunch of guys all camping in the same spot, while anyone not inside the "lair" merely becomes frustated that they cannot get through the area that has been blocked off (bad)? Or link turrets in range of eachother(somewhat good)? Or something else?

What's scaring me about engineer "team play", is that the best class to support an engineer, is another engineer. AMs love medics to heal their non-regenning vulnerable selves, medics like WMs or AMs to blast stuff they can't take on themselves without being overwhelmed, and of course meds love making XP by healing, WMs have a sort of symbiotic relation with AMs in the weapons marketplace, etc.
But engineers are better at helping engineers than any other class. They heal sentinels and turrets faster, and stack the effects of their sentinels to create death zones around their base. IMO, in terms of team play, engineers can help other classes, but the engineers themselves are self-sufficient, probably even more than WMs are. And that scares me.

well WM are pretty self sufficient too i mean theyve got all the weps...regen and hey even fi theres no medic around theyve got vampirsim to fall back on once enginneers hit 41 its the land of no regen for them..ever...

....and actually many enginneers will (or at least try ) to heal shields...(thought itd help if ppl wuld stop switching to link as we link them...:S..)...

also if they want some ppl can ask an engineer to spawn soem vehicle for them...wether it be scorp or bender.(unfortunatly..seein that some ppl get short on points...tanks are lil more harder for the lower lvvl engineers to give willy nilly ..thou ive had a req or 2 for mantas..o.0...thou thats a no dice..)

also once we hit 41..we will need medics to heal us..and will they heal us we can heal them..

...(thou the xp isnt much for shield healing..)

I think the Engineer Class is very clever. I just don't think it "meshes" well with the majority maps played on this server. The Engineer Class is perfect for Large Maps (xpl. ONS maps). If this server was dedicated to ONS maps, I would strongly support the Engineer Class.

It just came to me

---I posted earliear about the Engineer Class being similar to playing StarCraft. I love the idea of playing StarCraft with a "1st Person Shooter" style of play, which the Engineer Class provides.

I agree with Jason_x, I think things will change once Engineers get above 40 and lose the health regen. Then they will need medics just as much as AMs.

Medics are the best in a support role, because everyone needs healing. And nothing else is going to be as important as health.

Engineers do have more offensive capability than medics, but are also support characters for building fortifications, healing shields and using sentinels to distract monster fire - which any other class can benefit from.

Once a fortification is built, the repair and upkeep of the fortification is best performed by Engineers - yes I agree. However, keeping the engineers alive also requires medics. Helping to defend the fortification can be done by anyone - especially classes that are offensively strong. The engineers cannot be both repairing the defenses and taking out the attacking monsters at the same time.

Imagine - sentinel attracting monster's fire, engineer repairing sentinel, AM/WMs taking out the monsters, medic healing people who need it, plus globes of invulnerability/healing when required. Sounds good to me.

I agree with Jason_x, I think things will change once Engineers get above 40 and lose the health regen. Then they will need medics just as much as AMs.

Medics are the best in a support role, because everyone needs healing. And nothing else is going to be as important as health.

Engineers do have more offensive capability than medics, but are also support characters for building fortifications, healing shields and using sentinels to distract monster fire - which any other class can benefit from.

Once a fortification is built, the repair and upkeep of the fortification is best performed by Engineers - yes I agree. However, keeping the engineers alive also requires medics. Helping to defend the fortification can be done by anyone - especially classes that are offensively strong. The engineers cannot be both repairing the defenses and taking out the attacking monsters at the same time.

I really don't want to disagree, but the engineers, bases and people manning the bases I am seeing just doesn't match with that. I realize most engineers get freegen as of now, but honestly, engineers are the least health-dependent class in the game anyway. Sentinels and Engineers in Turrets do all or most the defending as of now. And any WMs or AMs I've seen in bases always seem to end up doing the "repair monkey" job, which is better done by an engineer anyway.
I'll give an engineer a heal if I see one on foot as my medic, and they *usually* heal my shields back. But honestly, engineers aren't on foot unless they choose to be. Many/most are in turrets, usually link turrets. An engineer in a link turret often almost never gets out.
Still, I might be grossly underestimating the damage that "leaks" through the armor of a turret...I guess we'll just have to see.

I did not notice any damage "leaking" through the armor at all if I understand corectly what are you trying to say. You don't loose any health as long as you are in a turret. The way I see it, the smartest thing to do as an engineer is to hop in a well placed link turret with two sentinels around you. You can pretty much stay there the whole game, except for waves 6, 14 and 16. I believe when you beef up the armor vamp, you could survive even those waves. (As of now, I think titans need 2 or 3 hits to destroy a link turret, if you can vamp enough between, you are saved - and you can kill titans REALLY fast in this thingies).

I was suprised how easy it is to survive wave 12 this way, when even high lvl WMs start to fall. When I was lvl 30 WM, my wave 12 lasted 2.7 seconds on average.

Another thing is, if you can find one engineer that would link you the whole wave 6 or 14, it heals you enough that you survive and you also get boosted, which means now that titans are really droping like flies. You can easily get holy kills this way.

So, droping our regeneration would not affect those eng who play this way. As it is, if I am near 2 sentinels on foot, they kill every monster short of a warlord, queen and titan BEFORE I get some real damage anyway.

As for the high scores I'm geting: In tight maps (harcore, metalhell, deck, etc.) I can easily score above 1300. Judging on the F3 data, 60% of it comes from the sentinels, 30% from the link turret and 10% from real kills. I believe I once got 1580 with no real kills at all. I am lvl 30ish now.

In more open maps, I get around 700.

I think it is too easy, but not so fun and rewarding as with my WM. If I score above 2000 with my WM, I think "Man, I rule." If I ever score above 2000 with eng, I'll say: "Wow, those sentinels rule."

Thanks for the continuing feedback Wonko. Sounds like the balance isn't right yet.

It is almost like your lvl 30 Engineer is performing score-wise like a lvl 100 WM or AM. But Dru commented earlier that his 135 AM out-scores his 250 engineer. So, it looks at the moment like the Engineer class gets power very quickly initially, then levels off with little extra benefit.

And from your explanation, that sort of follows. The best an engineer can do is spawn a link turret with two sentinels. Extra levels will give him more armor vampire, shield regen, armor regen, DB/DR, weapon speed, health, construction health etc, but that will not change that you are killing all the monsters that come your way and not dying - so the points will be the same ish.

So, what do you think will help best?

At the moment, the same limits apply to everyone - 1 turret, 2 sentinels, 2 vehicles, 20 blocks. We could reduce the number of sentinels to 1. This would reduce the 60% from sentinels down.

We could increase the number of things you can spawn as you go up in levels. So low levels could spawn no sentinels, mid levels one, and higher levels 2

The key to what you can spawn comes from the LoadedEngineer ability. This is fairly cheap - cost 2 rising to 16 - 22 levels of points buys the lot. We could significantly increase the cost of Loaded Engineer, or put level limits in so you have to be 5*level in order to buy. This would slow down the maxing of the engineer's spawning ability. Or require more points for each item

Minigun turrets allows some damage to the player to occur. So an engineer cannot sit in a minigun turret all day. We could limit Engineers to minigun turrets, or apply a similar seeping of damage to link and ball turrets.This may also encourage having a WM in the turret to get vampire/regen with an engineer charging - rather than the engineer being self-sufficient

We could decrease the initial maximum health of sentinels and turrets, forcing engineers to spend more points of other skills (construction health bonus, armor regen/vampire) earlier.

Any thoughts/recommendations?

It is almost like your lvl 30 Engineer is performing score-wise like a lvl 100 WM or AM. But Dru commented earlier that his 135 AM out-scores his 250 engineer. So, it looks at the moment like the Engineer class gets power very quickly initially, then levels off with little extra benefit.

It looks to me so too.

# At the moment, the same limits apply to everyone - 1 turret, 2 sentinels, 2 vehicles, 20 blocks. We could reduce the number of sentinels to 1. This would reduce the 60% from sentinels down.

I am not sure about this. If what you are saying is true, than higher level engineers may be underpowered. Take away one sentinel from them and it is even more so.

I would reduce the number of blocks they can spawn to 1. Really. I wonder how others (esp. non engs) feel about 6ft walls.

# We could increase the number of things you can spawn as you go up in levels. So low levels could spawn no sentinels, mid levels one, and higher levels 2

I think this would be better idea. Perhaps no sentinels at all for low levels is a bit rough. Maybe one light sent for low, one sentinel for middle (either sent) and two for higher levels (either sent). Or only one sentinel at all levels, but you can upgrade it as you rise (damage, armor, shooting speed, range, perhaps even add some magic like freezing or poison at really high lvls)

# The key to what you can spawn comes from the LoadedEngineer ability. This is fairly cheap - cost 2 rising to 16 - 22 levels of points buys the lot. We could significantly increase the cost of Loaded Engineer, or put level limits in so you have to be 5*level in order to buy. This would slow down the maxing of the engineer's spawning ability. Or require more points for each item

I have felt before that loaded engineer abilities come too cheap. The eject ability is on the cheap side also, considering it is a equivalent of ghost on a time-based cooldown.

# Minigun turrets allows some damage to the player to occur. So an engineer cannot sit in a minigun turret all day. We could limit Engineers to minigun turrets, or apply a similar seeping of damage to link and ball turrets.This may also encourage having a WM in the turret to get vampire/regen with an engineer charging - rather than the engineer being self-sufficient

Maybe if you just make it so that the link turret is available for higher levels (either expensive or lvl dependant), it would be OK. I am not sure about the ball turrets though. Most engineers I've seen tend to use either the mini or the link one.

If turrets in general were available a bit later, that would make low lvls die a bit more frequently, which I think would be fun :].

# We could decrease the initial maximum health of sentinels and turrets, forcing engineers to spend more points of other skills (construction health bonus, armor regen/vampire) earlier.

I would not go there. Decreasing the health on the sentinels may promote even more camping and constant linking them instead of shooting around.

How about making the engineers a bit more comunity oriented by scratching the vehicles out and introduce some magic wards in? It could look like a light sentinel and would be equivalent of the AMs inv., or DD globes? The ward would selfdistruct (and be indestructable otherwise) in like 5s and you could only plant say one per 100s.

Or maybe a shield boosting blast like the medics have.

Szlat: We could increase the number of things you can spawn as you go up in levels. So low levels could spawn no sentinels, mid levels one, and higher levels 2

Wonko: I think this would be better idea. Perhaps no sentinels at all for low levels is a bit rough. Maybe one light sent for low, one sentinel for middle (either sent) and two for higher levels (either sent). Or only one sentinel at all levels, but you can upgrade it as you rise (damage, armor, shooting speed, range, perhaps even add some magic like freezing or poison at really high lvls)

So this one may be a good one to investigate further. I can add configuration options that would allow the level requirements to be set independently for turrets/sentinels etc.
Could be:
Blocks: 1 block per 10 levels, starting with 1 block
Sentinels: none up to level 15, 1 to level 50, then 2
Turrets: none up to level 30, then 1
Vehicles: none up to level 40, then 1

Szlat: The key to what you can spawn comes from the LoadedEngineer ability. This is fairly cheap - cost 2 rising to 16 - 22 levels of points buys the lot. We could significantly increase the cost of Loaded Engineer, or put level limits in so you have to be 5*level in order to buy. This would slow down the maxing of the engineer's spawning ability. Or require more points for each item

Wonko: I have felt before that loaded engineer abilities come too cheap. The eject ability is on the cheap side also, considering it is a equivalent of ghost on a time-based cooldown.

Ok, then perhaps we need to consider making the LoadedEngineer levels more expensive. Instead of 2,3,4,5,...16 perhaps it should be 3,5,7,9,....31. This would take 37 levels to max rather than 20. Some other skills may need to reduce in cost to compensate (e.g. armor regen or vampire, but my preference would be shield regen to get engineers out).

Szlat: Minigun turrets allows some damage to the player to occur. So an engineer cannot sit in a minigun turret all day. We could limit Engineers to minigun turrets, or apply a similar seeping of damage to link and ball turrets.This may also encourage having a WM in the turret to get vampire/regen with an engineer charging - rather than the engineer being self-sufficient

Wonko:Maybe if you just make it so that the link turret is available for higher levels (either expensive or lvl dependant), it would be OK.

We could increase the cost of link turrets perhaps even up to 15 points, and lower the mini turret, with the ball turret in the middle. Link turrets are too cheap.

Wonko:How about making the engineers a bit more comunity oriented by scratching the vehicles out and introduce some magic wards in? It could look like a light sentinel and would be equivalent of the AMs inv., or DD globes? The ward would selfdistruct (and be indestructable otherwise) in like 5s and you could only plant say one per 100s.
Or maybe a shield boosting blast like the medics have.

I am considering the possibility of limiting vehicle spawning to ONS maps. It would stop goliaths being spawned in narrow passageways.

As for other community adrenaline based items, it is possible. Not entriely sure what.
I would not want to do a inv or DD one, as they belong to AMs.
Shield healing blast is a possibility. Could also incorporate armor healing in it as well, ans perhaps let it heal blocks.

On a different tack, I was thinking about having a defensive sentinel - either one that follows the engineer about (see the drones concept) or planted like the lightning sentinel. Then have this sentinel shoot down enemy projectiles. This would help protect everyone near the defensive sentinel, but would not generate kills or score for the engineer. This could perhaps be the cheapest sentinel, and take its firing rate from the engineers weapon speed.

Szlat wrote:

I am considering the possibility of limiting vehicle spawning to ONS maps. It would stop goliaths being spawned in narrow passageways.

You know, I'm torn about this. Reflexively, I'm for it, but ...

I in general don't like VINV since the maps/waves tend to drag on a bit longer, and if I'm playing my AM, they're not really that Team Friendly - sharing weapons is problematic at best.

This decision could easily imbalance the Engineer based on what map was in play - but then with the difficulties between VINV and regular INV maps being set differently, this might actually be okay. If it were decided though, I see a couple of things possibly happening:

- fewer people playing Engineer because VINV maps aren't played much
- people playing only Engineers when VINV maps are voted on
- more VINV maps being played as people want to play Engineer

Just things to consider.

Szlat wrote:

Szlat: Sentinels: none up to level 15, 1 to level 50, then 2

i agree with uping the points but 50 maybe harsh for the lvl 41 jump

ooh ooh!! idea!..ish...if an 135 AM beats out a lvl 250 engineer...why not add in a new sent / item for when ya hit lvl 100(150.) to balance out the top range? and extra sent at that lvlv may help lvl the playing field perhaps?...just a thought?

Szlat wrote:

Szlatn a different tack, I was thinking about having a defensive sentinel - either one that follows the engineer about (see the drones concept) or planted like the lightning sentinel. Then have this sentinel shoot down enemy projectiles. This would help protect everyone near the defensive sentinel, but would not generate kills or score for the engineer. This could perhaps be the cheapest sentinel, and take its firing rate from the engineers weapon speed.

this i gotta say is a great idea especially if youre goin to up the sents to lvlv 15 (makes the new engineers work for 10 lvls ) and so wuld help the newer players survive but not allow them to hide ina a corner and have their minions do all the killing for them..

Szlat wrote:

Szlat: am considering the possibility of limiting vehicle spawning to ONS maps. It would stop goliaths being spawned in narrow passageways.

but seeing that the goliaths are the problem for small maps...maybe those can be limited for ons maps cus as bot said i can see a group of engineers controllignt he vote to an ONS map so they can drive about...but maybe with only the goliaths being reserve for ONS map choices wuld be....unaltered?..

but alas only time will tell..:S.. and game play...

ps shield blast idea is good too and is fairly practical nice.

Wonko The Sane
*****
It is almost like your lvl 30 Engineer is performing score-wise like a lvl 100 WM or AM. But Dru commented earlier that his 135 AM out-scores his 250 engineer. So, it looks at the moment like the Engineer class gets power very quickly initially, then levels off with little extra benefit.

I agree that the power comes way too fast, especially with the AM in comparison. looking at the above level difference I wonder if part of the difference in scoring is due to the minimum level person in play.

It looks to me so too.

# At the moment, the same limits apply to everyone - 1 turret, 2 sentinels, 2 vehicles, 20 blocks. We could reduce the number of sentinels to 1. This would reduce the 60% from sentinels down.

I am not sure about this. If what you are saying is true, than higher level engineers may be underpowered. Take away one sentinel from them and it is even more so.

Drop one of the sentinels early on, add to flavor later. another balancing factor may be size, make them a little larger and they will be hit a little more often.

I would reduce the number of blocks they can spawn to 1. Really. I wonder how others (esp. non engs) feel about 6ft walls.

I agree that they have too many blocks that they can summon. One per ten levels seems like a good starting number to work off of.

# We could increase the number of things you can spawn as you go up in levels. So low levels could spawn no sentinels, mid levels one, and higher levels 2

I think this would be better idea. Perhaps no sentinels at all for low levels is a bit rough. Maybe one light sent for low, one sentinel for middle (either sent) and two for higher levels (either sent). Or only one sentinel at all levels, but you can upgrade it as you rise (damage, armor, shooting speed, range, perhaps even add some magic like freezing or poison at really high lvls)

Well thought out, I like it Wonko

# The key to what you can spawn comes from the LoadedEngineer ability. This is fairly cheap - cost 2 rising to 16 - 22 levels of points buys the lot. We could significantly increase the cost of Loaded Engineer, or put level limits in so you have to be 5*level in order to buy. This would slow down the maxing of the engineer's spawning ability. Or require more points for each item

I have felt before that loaded engineer abilities come too cheap. The eject ability is on the cheap side also, considering it is a equivalent of ghost on a time-based cooldown.

Way too cheap and most levels don't seem to buy anything but build points. As for eject, I feel 350 degrees different than Wonko on this one, I think that charging us for an ability that was free a little while ago, while making the difficulty harder,

# Minigun turrets allows some damage to the player to occur. So an engineer cannot sit in a minigun turret all day. We could limit Engineers to minigun turrets, or apply a similar seeping of damage to link and ball turrets.This may also encourage having a WM in the turret to get vampire/regen with an engineer charging - rather than the engineer being self-sufficient

Maybe if you just make it so that the link turret is available for higher levels (either expensive or lvl dependant), it would be OK. I am not sure about the ball turrets though. Most engineers I've seen tend to use either the mini or the link one.

the ball turret has the distinct disadvantage of having its fire come from a very wide angle on either side of the ball, this can make things that would not obstruct the fire of the mini or link turret very annoying. also the mini turret has the advantage of near immediate high continuous fire rate.

If turrets in general were available a bit later, that would make low lvls die a bit more frequently, which I think would be fun :].

# We could decrease the initial maximum health of sentinels and turrets, forcing engineers to spend more points of other skills (construction health bonus, armor regen/vampire) earlier.

I would not go there. Decreasing the health on the sentinels may promote even more camping and constant linking them instead of shooting around.

I would not do the health but considering that so many kills are coming from sentinels, the fire rate could be reduced. that may prompt people to kill as well as maintain the gear on the ground.

How about making the engineers a bit more community oriented by scratching the vehicles out and introduce some magic wards in? It could look like a light sentinel and would be equivalent of the AMs inv., or DD globes? The ward would selfdistruct (and be indestructable otherwise) in like 5s and you could only plant say one per 100s.

Or maybe a shield boosting blast like the medics have.

well that was confusing (ha irony thats coming form me..

..) but i mostly get and agree with it..o.0..i think..

Low level engineers have been dominating the the first 5 waves. Then the titans smoke them in wave 6. Earliear today, Jason-X- was dominating on Liandri as a lvl 32 engineer. I'm a lvl 236 WM, and his point total what just a hair below mine.

So I agree with what some players have been posting---low level engineers ate too strong.

hey violator quick correction...im not lvl 32 i was lvl 32 earlier this week but i just turned lvl 39 aaand ui ahve a screen shot b4 that showing a lvl 38

and yeah i was a 838 and you were at 1932..

may i also point out most of my kills was NOT sents but rather me in link turret (also my damage bonus is 51...at the time it was 46) and being ina link turrent occasiaonly teamates wuld link me and so i got that extra boost to take out the baddies..>: D lol..