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LA players unfairly advantaged?  XML
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Spacey

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Joined: 01/07/2005 21:28:14
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One thing that also needs to be realized is that if a LA player loans out a MWM, the LA player has the same problems getting it back. But of course, no body remembers that, or the fact that LA players are pinatas when they are killed (LW only drops their current weapon, and for a token cost will not drop even that with Denial 2), or the fact that they are at a disadvantage of starting with only a single weapon (making first blood harder), or that we are always faced with the chance of getting cursed weapons and have no guarentee of getting those dream weapons, etc. etc. etc. BARF! BARF! BARF! I am SICK of folks complaining about LA players. If folks think that LA players have such a freaking advantage, then why don't they stop with the south bound bovine by-products and give a LA character a try. Maybe then, if they are like most folks (i.e. not a Fro, Kit, Ooo, etc.) they may find that reality is different.

As for why I am currently playing LA instead of LW...I rather liked the LA class when it was started, and still want to see what I can do with it. And while there are folks with many more levels than myself still playing their day-1 character, I plan on playing mine.




*BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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Fraggerman

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Does LA stand for lame attitude? For crying out loud, he was only asking a question and now you guys are coming out of the woodworks defending yourselves.

I've been reading these forums for a few months now and anytime anyone mentions changing something about the LA player you guys start your mantra of how hard you have it and how easy everyone else has it.

I think people pick on you guys because you present yourselves as the greatest players ever to hit UT2004, everyone else is a hack.


One thing that also needs to be realized is that if a LA player loans out a MWM, the LA player has the same problems getting it back. But of course, no body remembers that,  

Same for medics, you're not alone.

or the fact that LA players are pinatas when they are killed  

What are you saying "those are mine, and even though I'll get a full supply of those when I respawn, I don't want anyone else having them?" Pretty selfish.

(LW only drops their current weapon, and for a token cost will not drop even that with Denial 2), 

LW players only get to keep the weapon they had selected when they died, and more times than not, they die with a trans in their hands trying to get away. He doesn't come back with all the same weapons he had when he died. I, for one, say make it so the LW player drops all his weapons that he didn't have selected, what else is he going to do with them?

or the fact that they are at a disadvantage of starting with only a single weapon  

Same for medics.

(making first blood harder),  

Once again, same for medics. Besides are you in kindergarden and want to be able to say "Ha,Ha I got first blood"?

or that we are always faced with the chance of getting cursed weapons and have no guarentee of getting those dream weapons, 

Use your MWM!

give a LA character a try. Maybe then, if they are like most folks (i.e. not a Fro, Kit, Ooo, etc.) they may find that reality is different. 

Thanks to the 2x exp I've played LA and achieved a pretty high level, and I found it just as easy (or hard) as any other class. If you ask me the Medics have it pretty bad too. For all the health you guy get from the medics, there sure isn't a lot of sharing of the precious artifacts you guys spawn with when a medic asks for them. As a matter of fact, there's one LA player who treats the medics as his personal doctors, he even got mad once when they didn't heal him in time.


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320

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Joined: 10/11/2005 21:28:38
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Fraggerman wrote:
Does LA stand for lame attitude? For crying out loud, he was only asking a question and now you guys are coming out of the woodworks defending yourselves.


 


Well, FWIW, I don't whine about the LA class. If I'm coming off that way, that's not my intent. I've stated many times that I think LW and LA are pretty equal. I think the game is great right now. At the end of the day, maybe one or the other truly is more powerful but it's not a huge difference. So when I'm making a fuss, what I'm trying to do is say "it ain't broke, leave it alone".

I think people pick on you guys because you present yourselves as the greatest players ever to hit UT2004, everyone else is a hack 


No no no. You got it all wrong. That's just MY attitude.
Chyster

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Fraggerman wrote:
......... 


Please refrain from attacking people for expressing their opinion, everybody has one. To disagree with them is one thing, but it should be voiced in a constructive rather than destructive manner.

I disagree with many perspectives that people have, but attacking them in this manner is very unproductive and lends to future hostilities.

While I admire your intestinal fortitude, flaming posts in this manner is pretty much frowned upon.

Chys

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Llachior

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I was thinking about going with a LA character but can they have Regen, Vamp, and Ghost?
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Grizzled_Imposter

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No vamp, I don't think they can have regen. Ghost is a yes.

I have heard that if you make your LA right you can run several artifacts at once, I don't know if this includes booster, but I have seen one or two that get adrenaline fast enough to run globe and triple an entire wave as long as they can keep killing things.

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[KitFox]

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run globe and triple an entire wave as long as they can keep killing things.  


This is false and close to impossible. (For me at least)

You have to have VERY fast fingers, and Activate/Deactivate them always. It may look like its running 100%, but its an update bug when you spectate.
v0rTeX

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Running artifacts for an entire wave depends greatly on many things.

-How much damage you can deal out
-How many of the actual kill shots you can get
-Which artifacts you run
-How often you can turn them on and off when needed
-The wave setup and score value of the monsters

On DC I should think it would be hard to keep even a single artifact running a whole wave because there are so many other players who could take the monsters out before you get there. The whole monster/player ratio of DC makes it very tough to run arts for long at all when there are more than 12 players.
320

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Llachior wrote:
I was thinking about going with a LA character but can they have Regen, Vamp, and Ghost? 


When you get high enough stats, you can run booster an entire wave. It's like regen5, but better, because it doesn't stop when it gets to your starting health. The only downside right now is that when a medic heals you more than 100 over your base, it kills booster but still runs your adren out. Hopefully this will be fixed in the next version of RPG.

I can boost and use the triple without much trouble on the 'money' waves.
Spacey

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Fraggerman wrote:
Does LA stand for lame attitude? For crying out loud, he was only asking a question and now you guys are coming out of the woodworks defending yourselves.
 


No. Try things like Lots Aggravated, Largely Attacked, or in some quarters, Little Appreciated.


One thing that also needs to be realized is that if a LA player loans out a MWM, the LA player has the same problems getting it back. But of course, no body remembers that,  

Same for medics, you're not alone.

 

I know medics face the same issue. However, this thread, in its numerous incarnations has mainly been focused on LW and LA. Part of the problem is that unlike the medic, who can get XP for healing or by summoning a bug to fight (direct use of the medic-only abilities), the LA class is still left pretty much unbaked in the XP area when trying to differentiate it from LW.


or the fact that LA players are pinatas when they are killed  

What are you saying "those are mine, and even though I'll get a full supply of those when I respawn, I don't want anyone else having them?" Pretty selfish.

(LW only drops their current weapon, and for a token cost will not drop even that with Denial 2), 

LW players only get to keep the weapon they had selected when they died, and more times than not, they die with a trans in their hands trying to get away. He doesn't come back with all the same weapons he had when he died. I, for one, say make it so the LW player drops all his weapons that he didn't have selected, what else is he going to do with them?
 


Did I say that the LW player kept their other weapons?? Politely put... No, that was not what I was saying. I was saying that while a LA player drops almost all their artifacts, such as the MWM, Triple, lightning, globe, and such when they die, the LW player will **drop** only their current weapon. So if they have been playing with a flak 5, a vorpal 10 shock, a vamp 7 RL and what ever other good weapon someone might want, and for some reason they die with the assault rifle, all those goodies are lost and nobody gets to play with them. And if they have denial 2, regardless of which weapon they were using, they drop nada, zilch. So to say it another way, I have no problem with being a pinata, so long as LA players are not the only ones doing so. Selfish? I don't think so, but you seem to be using a different dictionary.


or the fact that they are at a disadvantage of starting with only a single weapon  

Same for medics.

(making first blood harder),  

Once again, same for medics. Besides are you in kindergarden and want to be able to say "Ha,Ha I got first blood"?
 


No. But since it takes the same 10K XP for a LA player of my level to gain a level as it does for an equivilent LW player (or yes, medic), I have to say that every xp and adren bonus I can get, such as for first blood, a head shot, a spree, flak monkey, combo master, etc. sure helps.


or that we are always faced with the chance of getting cursed weapons and have no guarentee of getting those dream weapons, 

Use your MWM!
 


Did I ever say that I was not using the MWM to get rid of the cursed weapons?? But consider that a LW5 player, when starting out, is guarenteed to have all positive magical weapons, while the LA and medic can have all normal or even cursed weapons. Happens more often than not for me. And unlike what some people seem to think, there are no guarentees what the MWM will give, even through the entire game. And since you brought medics into the mix, they at least have the guarentee of making their medic weapon, which they can then heal folks and gain XP. But the LA player has no such equivilent which would increase the adren or XP they get.


give a LA character a try. Maybe then, if they are like most folks (i.e. not a Fro, Kit, Ooo, etc.) they may find that reality is different. 

Thanks to the 2x exp I've played LA and achieved a pretty high level, and I found it just as easy (or hard) as any other class. If you ask me the Medics have it pretty bad too. For all the health you guy get from the medics, there sure isn't a lot of sharing of the precious artifacts you guys spawn with when a medic asks for them. As a matter of fact, there's one LA player who treats the medics as his personal doctors, he even got mad once when they didn't heal him in time.

 


Gee fragger, which player is that and what level? I honestly have to ask, as it is really hard to match up the forum name with the player name, unless you put it in your sig. Have you hit the 10K limit yet, and do you have to worry about the 100+ level bugs when you are the only one left in the game, sans regen/vamp??

*BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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Spacey

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320 wrote:

Llachior wrote:
I was thinking about going with a LA character but can they have Regen, Vamp, and Ghost? 


When you get high enough stats, you can run booster an entire wave. It's like regen5, but better, because it doesn't stop when it gets to your starting health. The only downside right now is that when a medic heals you more than 100 over your base, it kills booster but still runs your adren out. Hopefully this will be fixed in the next version of RPG.

I can boost and use the triple without much trouble on the 'money' waves. 


Only thing the LA player can get of the three abilities is ghost. No regen, and if we can somehow get a vamp, it works about half as well as the ability on a level/plus comparison, before you even consider the fact that a LW player will have a damage bonus of 50+ (25%+), which will make this even more lopsided. So that LW player with vamp 7 with a +5 weapon will be doing 75%+ more damage and get back 35% of that damage as health up to the caps. Combine this with the fact that LA and LW are more alike than many would like to admit in how they have to be played to get the XP to level to get the next ability/skill, and it is a real PITA at times (I would bet/guess most LW players ghost less frequently than the same level LA player on average, but I have no data to back this up).

As for running the triple or globe the entire wave, not the case here, even with a rage 10. And I am among the highest LA players on the server. Of course, it probably says something 320 that even at lower levels, you maxed out your damage bonus, weapon speed and many of the other areas instead of adren and others on your LA just as if you were playing LW instead of playing LA (at least the way I see it IMO). And then again, how many times have I said that you are not a typical/average player, even by DC standards???

*BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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FodderFigure

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You have some very good points Spacey, I have only one correction. You wrote:
But consider that a LW5 player, when starting out, is guarenteed to have all positive magical weapons 
This isn't entirely true. LW players can get cursed assault rifles and shields. These may seem minor to you but as a LW player I usually throw out weapons I wont use so its easier to scroll through weapons I will use and the fact that sometimes I cant throw my cursed assault or I cant quickly change my cursed shield hinders my game somewhat.

The way I see the difference between LW and LA is this. LW players are like kids who goes to work right after high school. They see the rewards (scores) come in pretty quick, but in the long run their rewards will be dependent on what good jobs (artifacts and weapons) they can get. The LA player is like the kid who goes to college, his/her rewards are slow to come, but when he/she graduates (reaches a certain level) he/she will see much better rewards than the LW player because the LA player has the education (skill and the artifacts) to make their lives better.

I realize this is a pretty crappy analogy but I was bored and needed something to write.






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[KitFox]

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When you get high enough stats, you can run booster an entire wave
 


I like running Speed instead


The LA player is like the kid who goes to college, his/her rewards are slow to come, but when he/she graduates (reaches a certain level) he/she will see much better rewards than the LW player because the LA player has the education (skill and the artifacts) to make their lives better.

I realize this is a pretty crappy analogy but I was bored and needed something to write.
 


At Higher level i really think LA/LW have equal advantage. The LA Taking more time is true tough
Spacey

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FodderFigure wrote:
You have some very good points Spacey, I have only one correction. You wrote:
But consider that a LW5 player, when starting out, is guarenteed to have all positive magical weapons 
This isn't entirely true. LW players can get cursed assault rifles and shields. These may seem minor to you but as a LW player I usually throw out weapons I wont use so its easier to scroll through weapons I will use and the fact that sometimes I cant throw my cursed assault or I cant quickly change my cursed shield hinders my game somewhat.

The way I see the difference between LW and LA is this. LW players are like kids who goes to work right after high school. They see the rewards (scores) come in pretty quick, but in the long run their rewards will be dependent on what good jobs (artifacts and weapons) they can get. The LA player is like the kid who goes to college, his/her rewards are slow to come, but when he/she graduates (reaches a certain level) he/she will see much better rewards than the LW player because the LA player has the education (skill and the artifacts) to make their lives better.

I realize this is a pretty crappy analogy but I was bored and needed something to write. 


On the cursed assault and shield, I will say that I not only sit corrected (you don't expect me to be standing, do you?? ), but that I thought of that myself and forgot to note it as I wrote. So double XP for you!

On your analogy, you are probably closer than you think. I know my impression before the server crash was that I was definitely starting to level much faster (back in the 80s, I was taking weeks, and by the mid-90s I was under a week, and by lvl 103 pre-crash, I was probably every few days (say 15 games or so). Part of this was more damage bonus, part was learning how to do things like the flak/triple better, and part was a bunch of other small things (a level of cautiousness, another level of leach, more adren, etc). I have yet to go back and analyze my screen shots, but I know my scores (not XP) went from say 250-ish to 350-ish to somewhere around 500 for a good game.

And I know Cont was talking about folks with scores of 1000+ (and I do not think he was talking XP) not having any reason to complain. I certainly am not complaining about my scores, and feel that Cont was being nice by saying 1000+, since I think it should be across the board, but definitely for the folks with scores of 250+. My complaint is about folks wanting to nerf just because some folks are starting to cut into their high score club.

*BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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Spacey

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Since this seems to be the thread most releated to the nerfing of the RL/flak, and the likely nerfing of the triple due to the "unfair advantage" some folks percieve the LA players as having (outside of the long thread on Druid's RPG1.90 or the new thread BotFodder just started), I figure this is probably the best place for this.
So here it goes...and yes, these are the chiefest of my "other reasons" mentioned in BotFodder's new thread.

Firstly, people have complained about how LA players start out with things like the triple, globe, etc. Besides the fact that this is a major part of what makes a LA player a LA player (outside of two artifacts which are LA-only, one of which only two or so players can presently use), there is something that several of us have perceived of recent days. With all the b*******, moaning and groaning about how LA players start with a triple, why is it that when someone offers up a triple, we notice that there are no takers???!!! Zero! Zilch! Nobody! Niemand! One would think that with all that has been said that there would be somebody who would want it!

Secondly, as we know, LW players get XP for killing bugs and medics get XP for healing (and XP for killing bugs as well, which they are less able to stand up to at lower levels), and LA players currently get XP only for killing bugs. And you may remember that I had proposed something like the medic's healing XP, where we might get XP for maxing other peoples weapons, etc. However, I am glad that that is not the case and that LA players had to rely upon it for their main source of XP! The reason is that I and the other LA might get a single request over a 3 hour or so playing day to max a weapon, on recent average. Yea, some might get more, depending on when they play, but last night, many queries of whether someone had a weapon needing maxed went totally unnoticed or unanswered. Indeed, most of the time, I only get asked if someone has a vorpal or INF weapon. And while I always hear a question of "Is there a medic on here?" or "Where are the medics?"...I cannot remember the last time I heard "Anyone on here a LA player" or some similiar question. If it were not for a few of the the players going "Hey E, want this vamp?" or "Hey E, got some weapons for you..", my earlier comment of "Little Appreciated" (which is getting to mean the same as "mostly unappreciated") would be instead "totally unappreciated".

So, think about this next time before you complain about the LA player. Otherwise, there may come a time when none of us will want to play our LA players, or are playing it for just for our own fun, and may think that making or maxing out weapons for others is just a real PITA.

*BEL*_e (spacey), BEL Clan General -- You Frag em, I'll Slag em!
LA -- *BEL*_e (level 283 - Extreme AM), LW -- *BEL*_o (level 26) MM - ?? ( *BEL*_Rolaids ?? *BEL*DrWho??, Engineer... *BEL*BS_E_E [BSEE '89, Ohio U] (level 22)

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