Who thinks Engineers are balanced as-is?

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

....even tho I feel that you're a little off-base concerning the helpfulness of the WM.

Yes, sorry. WMs with LW5 get better than average weapons are so in more of a position to share good weapons. So, the order is now medics, roaming engineers, AMs, WMs, turret engineers.

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

1. No tanks or other vehicles allowed, period, on INV maps. We have VINV if we want to play/drive/fly vehicles. For large INV maps, such as Grassy Knoll or Mourning, they could be converted to play either VINV or INV depending on player vote.

It would be easiest to implement no summoning of vehicles at all. If you want them, go for VINV. Fine by me.

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

2. As to turrents, tie the health/armor to the level of the player at the beginning. For a player to increase the health/armor, they would have to purchase more of each at particular levels, i.e. 20/40/60/on so on (Similar to the damage reductions for a WM).

Basically, reduce the initial max health of the turret, and then increase the max health according to the level of ConstructionHealthBonus purchased. I would not want to increase according to player level - it must be based on a skill level. But we can restrict the skill level according to player level.

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

So, a turret engineer level 100 would have the same kill ability as a WM/AM at the same level. This gives the community 3 different battle classes and a medic class.

I think a turret engineer ought to score slightly under a WM of the same level, as he ought to be getting some xp from shield healing.

Szlat wrote:

Basically, reduce the initial max health of the turret, and then increase the max health according to the level of ConstructionHealthBonus purchased. I would not want to increase according to player level - it must be based on a skill level. But we can restrict the skill level according to player level.

Let's not forget the sentinels. Tie the sentinel's strength and numbers to the skill level similar to the turrents.

BTW, whatever happened to that Funball that was proposed?

Heres a shot of them demon, they were broken and flying all over the place when I took this.

Those were on the actual sever?..or are?....or is it a test sever?

Also less not ferget a high lvl engineer deprived of their turrent...Will more than likely die in late waves..with only one inf wep and not resupply for his ordinary wep..

Also also....How come engineers Cant summon mantas?....
Do you think if vehicles are moved to vinv only that mantas and raptors will be summonable?...Cus engineers in raptors =..

..(though it woudl be concerning about flying vehicles on roofed maps...like pac man...maybe something that refs the height of the lvl..?.)

And ligthnign sents I dpnt think need any more weakenining..they are very fragile..

so thoughts?

I do happen to believe that engineers are a little overpowered at lower levels, or at least they were. I believe that the tank on non-VINV or ONS maps is overkill, eliminate the tank on regular invasion. As for the other vehicles, they are not that useful on most smaller maps, its not like you can spawn one and jump in and drive, you have to bring its armor (health) up first so you pretty much cannot get one up and running except between rounds.

As for playing the maps with vehicles already spawned in them, they only net half exp, no thanks. Between most of the weapons on them not doing more damage to monsters than the weapons you can pick up otherwise and the fact that dodging is near impossible in a vehicle v.s. lightning fire my vote says that you are asking to be able to run over monsters.

No initial health or armor for build ables? Sounds good to me!

I do not necessarily agree that a turret engineer should have the same kill ability that an adrenal master or weapon master should have, I feel that they should be stronger in some areas and much weaker in others. Maybe in total score at the end of the map, depending on the players it could be close.

I commonly make turrets and vehicles for others. I have spent entire maps positioned behind a turret manned by a low level and kept it healed (don't have the link turret). I have also spent the rest of the map(s) going back and forth between healing my sentinel and a group of other engineers/medics that are linked. Believe me when I say there is not much that is more powerful in this game than a group of players that are linked up. I can only imagine what it would be like with an adrenal master or a weapons master at the front of the chain rather than a medic or a engineer. I say that because I never have seen it.

We as a community need to figure out how to handle the blocks and right of way.

Is there right of way?

Do summons of any kind have a right to block a passage? Keep an elevator out of service? Do players have the right to block others? Do players have a right to block summons?

-Jason_x- wrote:

Do you think if vehicles are moved to vinv only that mantas and raptors will be summonable?

I am not sure how easy it will be to differentiate between inv and vinv game types, so it may be that summoning vehicles is removed entirely from all game types. However, you will still get ArmorVampire etc on standard vehicles on a vinv map.
Mantas and Raptors are the same as all other vehicles - the type just need configuring into the ut2004rpg.ini file and they can be spawned.

Grizzled_Imposter wrote:

As for playing the maps with vehicles already spawned in them, they only net half exp, no thanks.

Not letting Engineers spawn vehicles on inv maps is likely to produce more votes for vinv maps.

Grizzled_Imposter wrote:

I commonly make turrets and vehicles for others.

It would be good to encourage engineers to build turrets for others. How about if engineers get 25% of the xp from turrets they summon, regardless of who is firing it? Then low level players can have the safety of a turret with an engineer around for healing, and engineers still get xp. (2 turrets manned by other people, 2 sentinels, and their own weapon - should get a reasonable xp). Or let the Engineer share the xp of whatever turret or vehicle he is linked to with the Engineer Link gun (whilst simultaneously healing and boosting? The boosting is contentious as it makes for a very powerful turret. And without the boosting, people might resent the engineer linking to them and "stealing" their xp)

Grizzled_Imposter wrote:

We as a community need to figure out how to handle the blocks and right of way.

Agreed. My current thought is ok to "block" the entrance to dead end rooms, and build fortifications in wide open spaces. But not to block through routes. But everyone needs an input.

OMG mantas in small maps???? Say it aint so Szlat

It annoying enough getting hit in the head by a goliath repeatedly, think I might stop playing if I was being run over constantly

I said VINV!! gosh..Im not complete half whit..

...I figed the reason for mantas and raptors not being summonable was because of map size

Ive seen some players summon turrents for other player and wat not...the one prob with summoning turrent for nonengineers is no vamp and no regen..so the turrets die quickly....unless i crouch behind them linking them..
So thou may have np prob now since they are gettin xp ...the turrnet a) prone to soon die ..b) no eject for the non engineners making them die....so efficiently very selfish of the neer..

..

And szlat the reaosn i asked for raptors in vinv is cus engineers in this vehcels with the vamp and regen last very long..but every time i take the raptorsi feel Im depriving someone else..If i spawn my own then np no derpriving...

As for dodgin in vehicles...well the raptor does that sorta...it just involves lots and lots of flying....in circles...

Linking is by far very benificial..I do that alot of the time if the lead person is very good shot......OH! and a wep master with a piercing link and bezerk runing linked..o_o.....madness....

As for blocking summons...uuuh..well...summons may be smart but they havnt got the concept fully of jumping OVER blocks..well...warlords fly over them...mercenaries..sorta ...bump into them....and skarjs can make it over....sometimes....both can make it over small blocks i think..

As for usefulness of scorps...heh..ive summoned them for some ppl..and also..on decent size inv maps..ive used them to fleee to opposite side fo the map...bail out and trans run to spot tha6 i can hop behind and shoot..(or group of linked engineers..)

As for bender...flee in style and some back up if you can...

..and there is always the always so entertaining DAREDEVIL tricks..

...

Szlat wrote:

It would be good to encourage engineers to build turrets for others. How about if engineers get 25% of the xp from turrets they summon, regardless of who is firing it?

That sounds like a good compromise for eliminating goliaths from the game.

Grizzled_Imposter wrote:

We as a community need to figure out how to handle the blocks and right of way.

Is there right of way?

Do summons of any kind have a right to block a passage? Keep an elevator out of service? Do players have the right to block others? Do players have a right to block summons?

I've really only come upon this problem once or twice since engineer went public. What we're discussing here is courtesy. I'm not sure how you would code a block "anti-camper" (or however you want to phrase it) or even add something to the server rules. What constitutes a blocked passage? (when a trans can't fit through or when a player can't jump through?) Which passages are considered critical? Which are not? Etc. It's a little too much to police. I don't think anyone reading this is guilty of blocking major passages, it's mostly new players who are unaware of the game type. In which case, you can always politely explain to them why placing a block directly in the center of a busy passage way is problematic.

At least you have an option of (after asking nicely) trans-ing the block. I think everyone reading this thread has died more than once when they turned a corner in hopes of getting out of the fray for a moment only to run head-on into a block(s) or sentinel.

As for me and my house, I would support elimination of all vehicles. There are usually 2-3 tanks roaming on Family Room for example that just obliterate everything for over half the waves. I have occasionally been one of them

.

At Engineer level 57 I have bought about half of the Const Health already and my tanks have 1,000 Health and my Link Turret has 875. Those will grow to 1,200 and 1,050 respectively long before I reach level 100.

I like the ENG class and I enjoy a different strategy of play from my WM occasionally. Since I have put much more playing time into my WM I feel somewhat uniquely qualified to say that I should not be able to easily survive as a loner with my ENG for 16 waves at this level. I have more trouble doing this with my WM at level 128.

I have also observed that when I have a Link turret built in later waves I "draw a crowd" of lesser engineers. While I sincerely appreciate that they heal my turret in an effort to stay alive themselves, it only makes things worse for the WM's. The engineers (and even some medics) that might otherwise be healing others are grouped around a big turret instead.

I also like the idea of having more fragile turrets too. If my ENG gets XP from others in my turret I can let them in the gunner's seat and stand behind them healing the turret and sents instead until I reach higher levels of play.

I don't envy those sleepless nights Szlat. Just one more opinion to add to the group. Thanks for all your efforts!!

Agreed..Thansk Szlats...

And yeah .." remember kids..blocks kill..:'("....

And yeah I do spend some times around turrets in late waves...but If you think about it...Its either i spend time around there..healing those ppl..or...I heal less ppl..and die an early death..

..(unless Ive gotta Rod, full adren and a DD pops up..then im set..

)

Szlat wrote:

Grizzled_Imposter wrote:

As for playing the maps with vehicles already spawned in them, they only net half exp, no thanks.

Not letting Engineers spawn vehicles on inv maps is likely to produce more votes for vinv maps.

I don't agree with that one. I would rather play my WM by far on VINV.

Why have a skill to spawn vehicles when you can only use it on one map type? If you pick the right type of map you can just walk over and get in.
Do we restrict weapon masters to weapons that are only available on the map that we are playing? I hope not!

I also think that 25% exp would be way too much for building a turret for someone. If you make it a percentage people will exploit it.

ZOG:

If you are playing as the only one on the server, your character is likely setting the difficulty. When you are playing your level 128 weapon master, the monsters have more damage reduction and damage bonus and are higher level than when you are playing your level 57 eng.

How about this for right of way: any mobile or spawned has less rights for space or passage than players. Players must yield to others when asked.

so>>>man passable entrance must be left to any area in the map that was accessible to walk, run or jump. Areas accessible to transporter only should leave over 50% unblocked access.

Maybe set it up for the same amount of xp that a person would lets say get form linking to another player with a link gun?...

Oh an Yeah Fog if i do dM the HUD is blue..as default...

Z0G wrote:

At least you have an option of (after asking nicely) trans-ing the block. I think everyone reading this thread has died more than once when they turned a corner in hopes of getting out of the fray for a moment only to run head-on into a block(s) or sentinel. Thanks for all your efforts!!

Thank you Zog. I was beginning to feel like the lone ranger regarding mis-placement of blocks (see the post on blocks).

Szlat, let me add my thanks for the efforts as well, to all of the people who worked on the engineer class. As stated before, I feel that it's a excellent addition to the classes and that more tweaking is needed.

Echo, I understand where you are coming from in terms of enforcement..........

Grizzled, all I'm saying that I feel that the tanks do not belong on smaller maps, i.e. deathmatch maps. Unfortunately, program coding does not easily allow for exceptions, thus you can summon a tank on any map.

In regards to VINV, why is the XP only half? Is it due to the level (skilled) or size/vehicles?