Balancing issues due to different player levels

Continuum wrote:

As for the pvp Epic even says adren unbalances the game to much and are removing it from UT3. RPG (which also uses adren) would really need an entirely different approach to be balanced if it is in fact possible.

We'll either readd adren for RPG/Invasion, or change it to a points earned system for kills (no combos).

Trust me, if Epic doesn't put in Invasion, the mod community will. Guaranteed. Just a question of time - and after that, just a question of time to code!

So the basic feedback I am getting, based on the posts in this thread, is:

High levels think it should not be any easier for the low levels

Low levels are not concerned about how difficult it is when just high levels are on, and only piercing weapons work

low levels are not particularly bothered that high levels can kill low level monsters a lot faster than they can

The aim of this thread was to try and make play more balanced, and more enjoyable for all. Since neither section thinks the other section has a problem, it must already be balanced.

So, I think forget this thread, and leave it as it is.

Szlat wrote:

So the basic feedback I am getting, based on the posts in this thread, is:

High levels think it should not be any easier for the low levels

Low levels are not concerned about how difficult it is when just high levels are on, and only piercing weapons work

low levels are not particularly bothered that high levels can kill low level monsters a lot faster than they can

The aim of this thread was to try and make play more balanced, and more enjoyable for all. Since neither section thinks the other section has a problem, it must already be balanced.

So, I think forget this thread, and leave it as it is.

Thank you

Szlat wrote:

So the basic feedback I am getting, based on the posts in this thread, is:

High levels think it should not be any easier for the low levels

Low levels are not concerned about how difficult it is when just high levels are on, and only piercing weapons work

low levels are not particularly bothered that high levels can kill low level monsters a lot faster than they can

The aim of this thread was to try and make play more balanced, and more enjoyable for all. Since neither section thinks the other section has a problem, it must already be balanced.

So, I think forget this thread, and leave it as it is.

Ok, I agree with points 1 and 3...but I plan on being a high level player some day, and I would hate it to have to have a piercing weapon to have a chance of killing something when I'm the last one left. I think your earlier idea, that is, setting a damage floor of 10% of the base damage, is a good idea. Or the long complicated way with dummy RPG weapons.

So yeah, I'm a low level who is concerned with how difficult it is when just high levels are on, and only pirecing weapons work.

FogRaider(_MM) wrote:

Szlat wrote:

So the basic feedback I am getting, based on the posts in this thread, is:

High levels think it should not be any easier for the low levels

Low levels are not concerned about how difficult it is when just high levels are on, and only piercing weapons work

low levels are not particularly bothered that high levels can kill low level monsters a lot faster than they can

The aim of this thread was to try and make play more balanced, and more enjoyable for all. Since neither section thinks the other section has a problem, it must already be balanced.

So, I think forget this thread, and leave it as it is.

Ok, I agree with points 1 and 3...but I plan on being a high level player some day, and I would hate it to have to have a piercing weapon to have a chance of killing something when I'm the last one left. I think your earlier idea, that is, setting a damage floor of 10% of the base damage, is a good idea. Or the long complicated way with dummy RPG weapons.

So yeah, I'm a low level who is concerned with how difficult it is when just high levels are on, and only pirecing weapons work.

I agree, I thought this was the main point of this thread, but it balooned into other topics. I don't think anyone would have a problem with weapons other than piercing being effective in later waves for high level players. This is a case where only high levels are on/alive so imo it would only positively affect lower level players if at all. It makes no sense that a piercing weapon should be more powerful than a vorpal imo.

Mach wrote:

I agree, I thought this was the main point of this thread, but it balooned into other topics. I don't think anyone would have a problem with weapons other than piercing being effective in later waves for high level players. This is a case where only high levels are on/alive so imo it would only positively affect lower level players if at all....

This thread was about trying to balance having high level and low level players at the same time. The initial post stated two problems:

a) If you have low levels still alive, the monsters are pitched at the low level, and are too easy for high level players, assuming you have the monster wave config set-up not too difficult.
b) If only high levels are left, the DB/DR for the monsters makes them unreasonably tough.

And the two go together. Fixing b does not improve the balance - it just makes it even easier for high level players. Currently, when we finish wave 16, it is normally the high levels left. So personally I cannot justify a change that just swings the balance further that way. It would mean loads of games where players never died at all - where is the challenge then? It would be too easy. I think "only piercing" is a crude method of limiting high level players, but remember they do not want things to change.

And I have lost faith in the thread. It was I thought a good idea, but has been rejected. So be it. Unless Dru says go ahead anyway, I will not consider putting the effort in.

And I think you may be wrong in saying it doesn't affect low level players. At the moment, high levels have a vested interest in keeping the low levels alive. If we make it so they can happily romp through all 16 waves with ease, then the change would not encourage more team work.
But I have no wish to offend anyone, or get flamed, so I am just going to leave it here.

I FIGURED IT OUT <<< NO NEED to change the codeing ,, or the way the dmg for high n low lvl players are,, Simply RE arange the monster waves... i tried it on my own test server and with those lvl switches my lvl 8 did significantly better.. and for my lvl 300 did about the same..

just try it. itll work..
wave 1-11 -they seem overall good for all lvl players.
it would be best i think to do it like this ..

wave 1-11-as is
12-i propose a new wave 12...lots of brutes... gasbags,,shield nalis..
13-red squiter,gasbags. queens.brutes.associated critters,
14-brute,lava scarj,queens. gasbags,associated critters..
15-titan wave(2nd)
16 -should be wave 12 but slightly tougher, i say slightly tougher cause warlords are a bigger target and even thoe warlord wave seems hard its more so the money wave due to thier target size.. we make it a tad tougher,..i dont think it would affect lower lvls

And the two go together. Fixing b does not improve the balance - it just makes it even easier for high level players. Currently, when we finish wave 16, it is normally the high levels left. So personally I cannot justify a change that just swings the balance further that way. It would mean loads of games where players never died at all - where is the challenge then? It would be too easy. I think "only piercing" is a crude method of limiting high level players, but remember they do not want things to change.

I disagree, how would having the option to do a fraction of the damage a piercing currently does to high-level monsters, but getting some other benefit instead, make high levels more powerful?

# of options does not neccessarily = power.

Consider this:
In a certain RPG, there are many weapons. They all have strengths and wekanesses, but they are all balanced against most enemies. However, only an axe can damage a dragon, the hardest enemy. Confused as to why this is so, you email the developer. He replies, "Well, the dragon is supposed to be the hardest enemy in the game. It just wouldn't be challenging enough if you could kill it with ANY weapon."

Would you be happy with his response?

If you want to encourage teamplay, make the monsters harder. If their own lives are threatened, players WILL adopt the group dynamic or they WILL die. As someone once said (Ben franklin maybe?) "We must all hang together or we shall all hang separately."

BTW, even if high players could *kill* any monster easily (which would not be the case in any of the suggested fixes), even high-level ones, they would still have an incentive to keep lowbies alive: monster Damage Bonus.

One last thing: At the time of day I play (about lunchtime EST), we die a lot, probably more than we win.

That's my opinion.

Well said fog, it wouldn't be a case of simply allowing a high level player to slaughter monsters with any weapons, but rather have a chance at winning a map without a piercing weapon. The fix would only have to be in play when a group of high level players are playing, or only one is alive. There is a difference between a challenge and the impossible. I don't think anyone enjoys having to run and hide for 5-10 minutes until the monsters dissapear.

Mach wrote:

Well said fog, it wouldn't be a case of simply allowing a high level player to slaughter monsters with any weapons, but rather have a chance at winning a map without a piercing weapon. The fix would only have to be in play when a group of high level players are playing, or only one is alive. There is a difference between a challenge and the impossible. I don't think anyone enjoys having to run and hide for 5-10 minutes until the monsters dissapear.

Yep, I sometimes get tired of running, hiding, and playing peek-a-boo. I'm not good at getting out of tight spots when cornered nor fast enough to outrun them. For once, I would like to be able to slug it out face-to-face with a titan or warlord to decide who's gonna win a map.

Szlat wrote:

And I have lost faith in the thread. It was I thought a good idea, but has been rejected. So be it. Unless Dru says go ahead anyway, I will not consider putting the effort in.

That's a bit defeatist, imo. Rather than being down on the thread, consider that the current system, even with it's detractors, actually works and thats' why no real solutions have surfaced.

One of the biggest problem with any rpg game is balancing play between low and hi level chars playing at the same time. if the difference is too great then nobody gets XP on Final Fantasy online, and on some mmo's you can't even party. the difference between MMO's and this rpg is there here you have 2 scoring systems: XP (for getting better) and Scoreboard. Getting one isn't necessarily tied to the other.

As a low level AM (whats LA?) my goal was getting experience. and i could tho it was tuff. i could spam and pepper and as long as i got hits i got experience. of course my total score was bottom 3 (right above the guy that died during connection) but i got xp, i got a couple levels, and i kept on truckin.

Now at high level, i compete for high score on the map with the handful of other people that can compete at that level. it takes near forever to level up, so that's not my focus anymore. my goal is to get as many kills as i can as quickly as possible... which has nothing to do with experience. while that affects other peoples ability to get xp off of my Godlike Holy Craps, the fact that low levels require double and triple digit XP to advance easily balances it out.

TBPH the things that were mentioned in this thread are all tweaks to an already working system. The reason nothing seemed to come of it is cuz there's no true and obvious problem problem. Sure sometimes it's really easy/hard, but that in my experience you're talkin about a sure minority of the play time. the great majority of the time it's fun and just challenging enuf.

This i think is for server operators to deal with. it allows them to set the difficulty and the butt-kicking ability of players at diff levels, and set the perception of their server.

so if you're lookin for "something to do" (which i doubt) i don't think you'll find it here.

monsto wrote:

(whats LA?)

It's in my FAQ under the definition for AM. It's a historical reference used by those folks who were around before classes were formalized by Dru, when the concept was controlled not by a "class skill" but the restrictions placed on a player based on the skills they chose (IE, Loaded Weapons or Loaded Artifacts, which would limit what other skills could be purchased). So, in a "class" sense, LA == AM.

Szlat wrote:

So the basic feedback I am getting, based on the posts in this thread, is:

High levels think it should not be any easier for the low levels

Low levels are not concerned about how difficult it is when just high levels are on, and only piercing weapons work

low levels are not particularly bothered that high levels can kill low level monsters a lot faster than they can

The aim of this thread was to try and make play more balanced, and more enjoyable for all. Since neither section thinks the other section has a problem, it must already be balanced.

So, I think forget this thread, and leave it as it is.

If you're going to change the way the game is played then change it for everyone equally. We went through a tough period where LA's said LW's had it better and LW's said likewise toward the LA's. We got through that and everything's equal now.

To me the difference of a good score and a bad score is the weapons I get. If I have a piercing when I'm all alone then great, otherwise I'll do the best I can.

To tell the truth I'm not that good a player and I rely heavily on my level getting me through a wave not my skill (as seen by all the players passing me up on the scoreboard). Which leads me to the point that I believe that toughness and the ability to make it through a wave SHOULD be an honor given to those who are good players or who have struggled though the ranks and gotten special skills. To give low level players special abilities just because they are low level is silly and diminishes the reason I worked my way up through the levels.

Make the monsters harder? OK. Make the monsters easier? OK. Make new monsters? OK. But lets not just throw abilities at new players just because we want something different.

I got my money... err skills the old-fashioned way. I earned it.

I got my money... err skills the old-fashioned way. I earned it.

True. but I believe that most of that time was under a different difficulty setting?