Balancing issues due to different player levels

realy nothing has to be changed... its all in working order..and works fine ..
but i hate to say it ..but why do you need to use the bazerk combo..lightning rod n bolt.. while useing a triple ,with a null flak all at once? . i understand if your close to the last player or the last... but i see people useing those specific combonations at wave 2,,, nothing needs be changed except the consideration to the lower players.. thats it ..lol.

..i know i know mystic and his troublesom thinking.. but im not the only one heh.,

ps . what if we just squashed the scoreboard ...and just kept exp?

FogRaider(_MM) wrote:

Would it be pssible to calculate damage like this?:
FinalDamage=BaseDamage x ((Shooter's DB + 200)/(Shootee's DR +200))

There is a core part of UT2004RPG that calculates damage like
Damage = Damage * (200 + DB - DR)/200
and we cannot get around that except by rewriting some of Mysterial's code, which we do not want to do. This is what causes the problems with high level monsters, who have DR more than 200 greater than the player's DB, so the player does very little damage.

So, unfortunately we cannot substitute your algorithm for the whole thing. The only way to keep it reasonable is to ensure the monster's DR never gets that high, which basically means we cannot take the monster's level from the player's level.

New thought: The only other way I can think of is to ensure that every weapon is a RPG weapon. Since the weapon gets passed both the damage and the original damage in the call to NewAdjustTargetDamage, then we could start again with the OriginalDamage, and recalculate however we wanted. So every weapon throws away the DB/DR adjustment, and recalculates.

This would need Druid's agreement for such a radical change. And we would need to have a "Dummy" RPG weapon that looked like a normal weapon to replace the standard non-magical ones. But it would work.

Grizzled_Imposter wrote:

I think that the easiest solution to work out would to institute a "minor league". Essentially a server that shared RPG data with the main server, configured for play of characters under a particular level.

If you are going to do that you might as well have another server and call it the super league, players of insane skill (those that complain that they are not being challenged) and level will get what they need for play.

would it be possible? probably more possible than it is for me to survive right now.

Mystic and myself started "No Class" characters (No Class = no free regen or ghost, plus you cannot buy anything off the rpg list, no resupply, vamp etc.) the other night just to see how game play would be.

We were both consistently within 100 points of each other and middle of the road on the score list. I had my first death at wave 11 and ended with a score around 550 or so.

I really enjoyed it and plan to play more that way (prob even more after I one up Sparky

)

Ratar_Killer wrote:

Mystic and myself started "No Class" characters .... We were both consistently within 100 points of each other and middle of the road on the score list. I had my first death at wave 11 and ended with a score around 550 or so.

I think that veterans like yourselves who understand all about UT2004RPG are generally ok as low levels. Your low level keeps the monsters low, so you get a reasonable game. You need to be a bit more cautious as your health etc are lower, but it is definitely playable.

The players who are new to UT2004RPG will struggle a bit more, and will probably need the help of the class low level boosts to survive.

The big fun killer I think is when only really high levels are on, as the monsters are a bit too strong. And that is really what this thread was about. Plus the fact that the high level players find it a bit too easy when low levels are on.

NO KIDDING.....When I'm the lowest level player on, we seldom last to the 9th wave.......................

So, if we want to, we could change the algoithm for damage. This would be by either

setting the % lowest player level to zero, and in the Class HandleDamage adjusting the damage. This would only work for invasion games or PvP (not assault), and rage/piercing weapons would also need a slight mod

or Creating a modified core RPGWeapon that the other weapons are based on, that uses the OriginalDamage rather than the damage after DB/DR, and adjusts it in NewAdjustTargetDamage. This would work for all game types, but would not affect damage done by monsters. Without the DB/DR bonus they get, they may be too weak, so we might need to up the damage in the same way a negative protection weapon would.

Either way is possible, and wouldn't take too long to implement. So, three decisions

Do we want to do this?

Which way do we want to do it?

What new algorithm do we want? Minor tweak or complete rewrite?

The main reasons for doing it in my books would be

make it easier when only high levels are on ( > 1 damage)

perhaps make it marginally easier for very low levels

perhaps make the same monster hit high levels slightly harder than low levels. Not a lot, but just enough to put the challenge back in

perhaps have different algorithms for different game types.

Szlat wrote:

One other thing to consider is the low level players. At the moment, the low levels struggle to beat the high levels to the kill. By end of wave 2 a high level LA will have a couple of good weapons maxed, and with maxed surge/leech/drip will be running artifacts quite frequently.

That is a joke if I ever heard one... that or something else I got quite familiar with growing up in farming country... Most of the time, I am dumping almost all my adren into trying to get a decent weapon, and the majority of the time, I am probably still trying around wave 10 or 12, unless someone is nice and offeres me one (which typically seems to only happen when they want it maxed). And I do not count sturdy, penetrating, normal damage, force, infinity, knockback, or most of the others as a good weapon. Freezing/Null/Poison are not too good either, as when you have a nali, krall or skarrj right in your face (or any other monster for that matter), you end up spashing yourself, and next thing you know... bye bye LA player. Rage? Forgetaboutit!!! That is downright suicidal. I have gone entire maps without getting a piercing, energy, or vorpal, or even a vamp. About the only time I break out something other than the MWM (or the MAX if someone wants a max) is to deal with those CENSORED vamp razor flies with the lightning rod when I get swarmed, or I might break out the bolt (not tripled... as I generally can only get about 2-3 seconds if I do) for titans, warlords, and such.

And in case you have not noticed Szlat, I am not a low level LA, but am instead one of those LAs now trying to come up with ways to spend my points, such as Countershove and IronLegs.

Balancing classes in PvP is hard even when grouping players in narrow ranges of levels (i.e. 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 16-20, etc...) That's why many (most?) MMORPGs have PvP areas by level (or range of levels).

I'm still of the opinion that PvP is not viable in RPG-based FPS games/mods.

Spacey wrote:

Szlat wrote:

.... By end of wave 2 a high level LA will have a couple of good weapons maxed, and with maxed surge/leech/drip will be running artifacts quite frequently.
...That is a joke if I ever heard one... .the majority of the time, I am probably still trying around wave 10 or 12......And I do not count sturdy, penetrating, normal damage, force, infinity, knockback, or most of the others as a good weapon. ..... I have gone entire maps without getting a piercing, energy, or vorpal, or even a vamp.

Spacey, I know you are a high level LA, and that it is difficult for high level LA and LWs when they are the only ones left. That is the whole purpose of this thread. If high levels are limited to just piercing in the later waves, then something is wrong.

What I was trying to say was that you could easily max a couple of good weapons by the end of wave 2 - but I am including damage, null entropy, freezing, poison and vampire. In the lower waves, low level players should still be around, and all of these weapons maxed will do similar damage to the piercing+6. My point was that, while the low levels players are still alive, the high level players can earn points a lot faster than the low level players - due to higher DB, weapon speed, artifacts, vampire etc. And that was a bit unfair on the low levels.

The frequency of the different weapon types is set by Dru, so it is up to him how he wants to balance it. If LAs always had piercing weapons, what's their incentive to keep the low levels alive?

Szlat wrote:

If high levels are limited to just piercing in the later waves, then something is wrong.

Possibly a valid point. But should we change it or chalk it up as something inherent to the game?

Szlat wrote:

the high level players can earn points a lot faster than the low level players ... And that was a bit unfair on the low levels.

No, it's not. High level players are more powerful. They can score more points. If a low level player wants to score more points, they can work at it and become high level themselves. We've even put in a ton of stuff to help them do so. You only need level 36 to get on the top players list.

Szlat wrote:

If LAs always had piercing weapons, what's their incentive to keep the low levels alive?

They don't have one and they don't need one. LAs are not healers or tanks (we don't even have tanks). They're casters and damager dealers, and to very small extent support characters.

Moof wrote:

Szlat wrote:

the high level players can earn points a lot faster than the low level players ... And that was a bit unfair on the low levels.

No, it's not. High level players are more powerful. They can score more points. If a low level player wants to score more points, they can work at it and become high level themselves. We've even put in a ton of stuff to help them do so. You only need level 36 to get on the top players list.

AMEN.........

Everyone has to put in their time and build themselves up to the high level. As Moof said, we have a ton of skills and abilities for the lower level players to help them, along with the help given to the low level players by the veterans. It is only natural that 150+ level players, either the LA or LM, are going to score more points. We have built ourselves up to that level. Even tho the working map levels are "experienced", the server is actually are very close to the skilled or expert map level.

If low level players, with what has been given to them, dislike the server settings, then they need to make a decision on where they want to play. I will use ECHO as a very good example. He has always been one of the better players, even as a low level player when he joined......Where is he now? One of the top 10 scorers in the community, along with BOTFODDER, FODDER FIGURE, BLADE, et al. To me, as a level 200+ player, the trend and thoughts of this thread is almost an insult to me and to those others who have worked their way up the leveling ladder, paying our dues, and learning how to play effectively.

If we want to effectively level the playing field for all players (new and old), then we will need to take away the levels, the abilities, the skills, the magic weapons, and other tweaks that make this server and community unique. I don't want that.

I'll echo (pun definitely intended) some of what's been said here. As a ~200 level player I see the benefit of my time spent on this server as the abilities that allow me to take down more enemies and survive longer. A level 30 WM is clearly not as powerful as my character. Is that unfair? To some degree, yes. Not everyone has a ton of time to spend playing this game, however if they would like to have an equally powerful character they can work on it. If a completely fair and even playing field is what we want then the RPG mod should be scrapped (something I'm totally against - one of the reasons I play here). I was a low level at one time with other high levels on. Yeah, sometimes I got a little miffed when a powerful player came in and wiped everything out, but I got over it. Why? Because they earned the right to have those extra abilities. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

my concern is mostley for the pvp sector of the game ..
its pointless to try to kill a lvl 200 if your under lvl 60... it pointless to try to kill a high lvl healer... and null n bolt n beam are utterly devistateing in pvp modes.. <in pvp>

,,,omg i won the lottery!!!1

APRIL FOOL!

Mystic wrote:

my concern is mostley for the pvp sector of the game ..
its pointless to try to kill a lvl 200 if your under lvl 60... it pointless to try to kill a high lvl healer... and null n bolt n beam are utterly devistateing in pvp modes.. <in pvp>

PvP can be played as the players wish-we had that going a while back on the Dallas server with no extras....

And yes, I believe all of the players enjoyed it. Please remember that it was a change of pace and our passion is INVASION, except for Szlat's dongone flies.

I don't think it would be fair to level the playing field making low lvl players just as powerful as high lvls but since the increased difficulty and new monsters Ive found that after ~wave 12 I'm lucky to make it to a weapon each so I basically get around 3 seconds of play time per wave. That is unbalanced imo. I guess I think that an average skilled player should be able to play as well as someone with more skill.

As for the pvp Epic even says adren unbalances the game to much and are removing it from UT3. RPG (which also uses adren) would really need an entirely different approach to be balanced if it is in fact possible.