junky unbalanced

im gonna get alot of flak for this but, it needs to be discussed more,

the high level junkys abuseing the triple and the lightning rod or whatever it is your doing to score 3k+ while everyone else is 500 or below, is a problem,this is more on the smaller maps,anubis,gael,spacenox,megawoot ect,are you doing it to obtain the most points for brag rights? are you doing it because you dont like the map?are you doing it just because it lets you?or are you doing it to just not let others get points/kills/targets.?

talking about unbalanced classes ,this so called strategy is overall,a greedy tactic thats makeing people leave and wait for whoever to log out
simply because they cant get any kills or enough to justify sitting on the comp watching someone or some peeps jump around just triple/zapping things, this isnt a new thing but i witnessed someone useing it as stated above and if thats what the LA is like at high lvls then it needs to be toned down so others can compete .. and if a lvl 300 cant get 600+ due to this then imagine what the lower lvls get. nada just a waste of time watching someone kill everything. so in the discussing of balancing classes high lvl junkys need to be toned down in my view. i know there isnt many LA's that play and im thankfull for that.because if there were.,no other classes would have a chance but medics.

I remember one day when Fodder and I (both of us in our WM) were on together and we both ended up in the high 1800s+ and none of the other players scored over 800. I know this has to be discouraging to the other players on the map. So I think what has happened is when I'm on, Fodder will not play and when Fodder is on, I try not to play.

It is real discouraging to other players when Elite and I are on together since between the two of us, we can and will score 3K-5K points just between us, leaving the rest of the players to try to get the remaining available points.

However, how would you address the 2 or 3 high level players who are on at the same time? To me, highlevel players are 350+ level, so we are looking at a total of 4K to 5K points per map just between those players............lower level players do not have much of a chance to score.

Imagine Fodder, Flaashman, Road, and myself on at the same time................all 500+ level players!!!!!!!!!!!!!What a dream time we would have tho.

In a rather long-winded way, the problem as I see it is not the class but the ability of the player and their desire to score mega points. The LA class has been nerfed several times over the past year and it has not slowed them down.

im more concerned about the triple and lightning rod being used as a LA player, i know high lvl anything can be used to get high points but, 3k-4k solo just hoping from 1 end to the other end of the map, is the problem.

i dunno demon i understand what your saying but,there has to be some way to even this out,maybe useing 1 artifact at a time ,or haveing a timer on LA artifacts like engineer timer, to stop the abuse of these artifacts,

only reason i say abuse is due to the fact,that when this combo of artifacts are used ON SMALL MAPS ,its pretty much shutting every other player out,

i have always started these types of discussions to help the overall fun for everyone not just 1 specific class,i know it just sucks 1 class gets targeted at a time it feels like its personal but i swear its not,

as far as the other classes im getting to them lol

If I recall correctly, the Triple and LR have already been adjusted so that they won't work together.

Look elsewhere for your imbalance issue.

however theyre useing them either as a combo or a chain, theyre being used,

BotFodder wrote:

If I recall correctly, the Triple and LR have already been adjusted so that they won't work together.

No, I changed the bolt and the beam not to work with the triple. See this thread. I didn't touch the Rod as that is one of Druid's artifacts, so I left it as his call.

In principle I am against unaimed attacks being able to dominate the game. Bolt had to be nerfed as it would instantly kill everything, and not give others a look in.

The Rod normally does 10% of the Monsters Max health as damage, so with a triple running it will do 30%. This means (ignoring DB/DR) it will take 4 hits to kill each monster. Since it fires every half second, we are talking 1.5 to 2 seconds to clear a room. This does give a slight opportunity for others, but not much. This will take 20 adrenaline for the triple. If we assume the room had 6 skaarj in, the rod will use 7.5 adrenaline to kill each skaarj, but return 12 adrenaline back to AM, assuming level 2 surge. So the total change is -20 + 6*(12-7.5), leaving the AM 7 adrenaline better off. Ignoring damage done with the tripled weapon and ignoring any multi-kill/spree benefits. That to me is wrong.

My temptation would be to let the rod run, but only do normal damage - since the triple will be tripling the weapon damage also.

However, I think the AM is a relatively weak class. It is difficult at low levels, and at high levels can still be easily outgunned by medics or WMs. If I nerf this, AMs will be very underpowered.

So, if we nerf this, what should we give AMs to keep them balanced?

Reduce the cost of aimed adrenaline attacks - Beam and possibly MegaBlast

Change the Max+1 to Max+2, and reduce the cost to 200 adrenaline

We can't give AMs a means to heal themselves, as that is the medics job. We could give them an extra ability that removes damage first off their adrenaline before their health (but after shield)

We could have increased levels of drip and leech. But keep the restriction where leech and drip only work if there is no active artifact or combo, otherwise we could have AMs globing through the last wave.

Give them their own special weapon. Suggestions? Possibly energy+6 shield gun?

Increase the xp reward from team artifacts like the spheres

Make it so for AMs it is the magic of the weapon they have in hand that is done, rather than the magic of the firing weapon. So fire a knockback rocket, switch to a vampire weapon and get health back when it hits

a couple ideas,

a energy sentinal> ,Orange base, that gives them energy per shot? if possible like the lightning sentinal but instead of doing dmg it just gives you adrenaline

give them a infinity minigun,or a energy +6 like you said or maybe both,if both id say energy 3 or 4 do to the infin,

have the points gained from the use of the triple /double and rod to the team overall if possible like each player gets alittle.,

Szlat wrote:

Make it so for AMs it is the magic of the weapon they have in hand that is done, rather than the magic of the firing weapon. So fire a knockback rocket, switch to a vampire weapon and get health back when it hits

Isn't this currently a bug/feature? I know it was back when I ran a server...was this fixed recently?

greg11 wrote:

Szlat wrote:

Make it so for AMs it is the magic of the weapon they have in hand that is done, rather than the magic of the firing weapon. So fire a knockback rocket, switch to a vampire weapon and get health back when it hits

Isn't this currently a bug/feature? I know it was back when I ran a server...was this fixed recently?

It was considered a bug, and fixed with the weapons in the DruidsRPG. However, if AMs are magic masters, then perhaps they ought to have more freedom than other classes.

given the amount of high level Ams that play (currently/frequently) couldn't we ask them to refrain from using this tactic (discreetly)
the Am is a very difficult class to master at lower lvls and thus do need some incentive for when they get higher lvl . man 40 to 50 dang near made me give up
a large part of the problem (as I see it) are people using macros so are not even pressing more than a single key to have abilities activated. and then use unaimed skills to boot

Of course I need to chime in.

The DD/Rod, is very important, as it is sometimes the only way to get out of very tight spots on small maps. Also I use the DD/Rod as a super weapon, but unlike the deemer you need to be in the middle of the fray to be effective. AM's are a mage character thats really been cut down, take away artifact combos then consider giving AM's super weapons.

I understand Mystics frustration, but just as seasoned WM's don’t fire their Deemer every round, seasoned AM's will find the path as well.

Mystic, remember that AM's wait a long time to get to a point where they are powerful enough to get up in score with the WM's, But I sometimes get frustrated seeing a lvl 75 Eng dominate a map while most of the other players and sitting behind a turret getting the most boring XP imaginable. Recently I've been going back to my AM if there are 3 or more Eng's dominating

Mystic do you even have an AM, actually yeah you do but its extrememly low level (actually so low of a level that it doesnt appear in the UT2004 stats page), so you wouldnt know how painful it is to die almost every wave during levels 20-80. My point is your complaining about a class you know very little about, yet you make assumptions as if you have mastered the class and are pointing out its flaws, or so it seems your are doing...
In other words your not a high enough level to criticize the class or understand what low level AM's go through to actually get kills.
So Mystic, I challenge you to play your AM more often in order to actually comprehend how difficult it is to score and its not as easy as you make it seem.

Here we go again, someone unexperienced or unfamiliarized with the AM class, complains. It was
not enough that the class was nerfed.

The bolt was nerfed; a timer that not only underpowers the junkie, but practically ensures the AM player

a premature death because by the time you kill "one monster", after 3 seconds you realize that you're out

of adrenaline (since bolt goes to the highest health monster within sight), but also discover that the

monster you wanted to kill is still alive. What do u do? No more adren to kill or turn the globe on.

You're dead.

The beam, well useless. Same problem. Timer.

Blast that resembles a redeemer, useless. Timer. By the time you get to the artifact u want, you're dead.

What other artifacts are at the AM disposal? The rod, and that's the ONLY one that mildly prevents

monsters from attacking you. I've found instances where monsters can still throw red goop at you, or
queen can still null or poison you.

Mystic wrote:

im more concerned about the triple and lightning rod being used as a LA player, i know

high lvl anything can be used to get high points but, 3k-4k solo just hoping from 1 end to the other end

of the map, is the problem.

So you think that hoping from one end of the map to the other using rod is just as easy as you say it is?
Go ahead and take Elite's challenge and mine. I've challenged ppl before. Go ahead and do what you say

is so easy to do and get that score. Let's see how good you do. Let's see if what you say holds any

water. If you can get 4k I'll shut up. But if you don't know what it takes, we'll have to question your

motive for stating that there's an imbalance because a non wep master beat your score. Or is it jealousy?

It's irrartating when people who doesn't have a high lvl am character or someone who doesn't understand
what trouble it is to get that AM char to such high levels go through, judges lightly the hard work
it's been put into. When AMs get to the top, you get punished for being "too good".

There's three perspectives here.

One: From the non am player. They think that the AM class is too powerful and get frustrated because of

the rod the AM is using but are happy when they have one and can dominate any map, specially WMs.

Two: From the coding perspective (Zlat). It's easy to judge from calculations and math formulas the power

of the junkie, but fail to take into account that theory and the implementation are two whole worlds. Only

when you're a mid to high lvl junkie can understand the class. You have to immerse yourself into the AM

world. It's not easy at all. Let's put 6 or 7 skarjs in a room, see if you can kill them without getting

damaged. Now imagine warlords, queens, titans, red skarjs, etc etc. Not a pretty sight or experience.

Three: The AM perspective, ppl who ACTUALLY have mastered the class like Ratar, Elite, Micron (whose

comments were ignored anyways) have more say than any other class about its flaws and strengths.

Ratar_Killer wrote:

Mystic, remember that AM's wait a long time to get to a point where they are powerful enough to get up in

score with the WM's, But I sometimes get frustrated seeing a lvl 75 Eng dominate a map while most of the

other players and sitting behind a turret getting the most boring XP imaginable. Recently I've been going

back to my AM if there are 3 or more Eng's dominating

We have to remember that each map may favor one class or another. Engineers can dominate small maps, AMs

can dominate space maps, WM can dominate large or medium maps, so can medics.

One more thing Mystic is failing to see is the "skill" the player has. If the player has knowledge of

the location of power ups and is very aggressive and competitive and has the "tools", he can become very

powerful. Skill is not something everyone has. Elite, Micron, Violator, Shimynshake, Blade, Hobo have

great skill. So if you combine artifacts, power ups, skill, aggressiveness and a high lvl character, you

have the recipe to be very powerful. Wish I was that skilled, the fact of the matter is, I'm learning and

striving to better my game, and I realize that there are ppl better than me and accept it. It keeps

my feet on the ground and it keeps me from complaining and fantasizing that the other class has a bigger

stick than I do.

Why punish talented skilled ppl, If they're not skilled, then ANY AM high lvl player could reach 4k, so

far no one has come close to Elite's score. Perhaps you can Mystic since you think it's as easy as

Mystic wrote:

hoping from 1 end to the other end of the map, ...

Everyone seems to hate the AMs, why not get rid of the class? Everyone would be happier.

i dont have to be a specific class to see its flaws

,I dont play the La because it's not my style <shrugs,

TALENT is not useing a triple and rod to just zap everything the whole wave every wave just because no one fixed it yet,and your high enough lvl to exploit everything you need to run it constantly,,

elite when your score is almost 4k before wave 15 and everyone elses is 100 and below except mine<was 500ish> and no one linked to you or anything,.no turret no help but for minor heals, just your high lvl LA a triple/rod even the people with turrets cant get more then 100 points its not skill thats simply mis-useing the rod and triple,and that is unbalanced wether you like it or not. and just because you die alot at low lvls like everyone else,,that should justify the mis use of triple/rod? lol

and for the people getting snippy remember this is a discussion board not a pety comment board,

Let's keep everything calm folks. Nothing is going to happen in a hurry.

Ghost, you have to remember the history of the AM. When it first appeared, there was no key binding, and no bolt or beam or megablast. The current AM class is not "nerfed", it is still a lot more powerful than when it was created.

But I stand by my comments that the AM is comparititively a very weak class, and cannot afford to be weakened further.
However, the rod is not aimed and when used with the triple dominates too much. I know there is skill in knowing when to switch it on and off, and in surviving whilst in the middle of a group of monsters. But I still feel it is over powered.

One option would be that we leave the rod/triple option in there, but use triple the adrenaline. So you can still use it in an emergency, but not for long durations. Would people also prefer this for the beam/bolt?

Personally I would like to replace the triple/rod with something stronger, but aimed, but which would also help the low-mid level AMs. Positive suggestions please.

We have lots of options. What do AMs really want? Do they really want the indiscriminate rod/triple or something more powerful? State your wishes.