junky unbalanced

like the idea of tripling the adren used Szlat , but I don't have the skill set on my AM to run it anyway (too low lvl still) so...
and getting rid of the timer for bolt/beam too (even tho I usually just switch from one to the other myself

)
how well it works with multi-kills,etc is the real test something that powerful shouldn't be able to power itself, which was the problem before if I remember correctly

and for the record I think this is a much calmer topic than it normally is (check the previous ones

)

Granted im not as high as some of the 100/200+ AM's here but I do very well with the AM class for my level.

Some notes about the Rod as well. Theres not many waves that a rod + triple are extremely useful and if the monster pack is too large, you will blow an entire 250 adrenaline pool in a second and not get any kills since the drain is directly based of the total damage.

The later waves Rod + Triple really loses power as a number of mobs have high life values which results in a large drop in Adrenaline per bolt. Even a couple of titans will destroy an AM adrenaline pool and and AM without adrenaline is a dead AM.

Plus to do this, AM's have to be In the middle of the fray of monsters and AM's are the most fragile of all the classes as they have NO forms of regen beyond Booster combo.

The Rod normally does 10% of the Monsters Max health as damage, so with a triple running it will do 30%. This means (ignoring DB/DR) it will take 4 hits to kill each monster. Since it fires every half second, we are talking 1.5 to 2 seconds to clear a room. This does give a slight opportunity for others, but not much. This will take 20 adrenaline for the triple. If we assume the room had 6 skaarj in, the rod will use 7.5 adrenaline to kill each skaarj, but return 12 adrenaline back to AM, assuming level 2 surge. So the total change is -20 + 6*(12-7.5), leaving the AM 7 adrenaline better off. Ignoring damage done with the tripled weapon and ignoring any multi-kill/spree benefits. That to me is wrong.

You forgot to include Triples Drain on Adrenaline as well. It almost comes out to a break even and the combo has to rely on getting one of the multi-kill award bonuses to keep it going.

Again this really one works well in small maps that are fairly wide open. As it was stated before, each class has maps that they are better at then others. Spacenoxx for example is my fav map as AM since it has a double damage and it wide open allowing good use of rod. Go to Snowfields and suddenly its harder to get score as everything is spread out.

Rod (and combining it with triple) is about the only trick AM's have left to get out of tight spots. Globe is ok but it is a huge drain on adrenaline. Dont forget that with rod, the mob isnt dying instantly like they were with bolt. A kill can still be gotten from a mob taking rod hits.

I guess it goes all back to the old class generalizations from roleplaying games, AM's are a mage class or better coined as the "glass cannons."

Ghost wrote:

From the coding perspective (Zlat). It's easy to judge from calculations and math formulas the power of the junkie, but fail to take into account that theory and the implementation are two whole worlds. Only when you're a mid to high lvl junkie can understand the class............ppl who ACTUALLY have mastered the class like Ratar, Elite, Micron ... have more say than any other class about its flaws and strengths.

I do agree that high level players of a class know it best. However

I never heard one engineer complain that the goliath was too powerful. Nor the link turret. Nor having 3 offensive sentinels.

I never heard a single medic complain they were getting too much xp when the xp for healing bonus was significantly too high. What's wrong with 10k xp per map?

I didn't hear any AMs saying the bolt and triple was too powerful

I didn't hear any WMs compaining that the weapons were too powerful before they got nerfed

I didn't hear any AMs complaining about being able to use Double Modifier and Triple damage on a vorpal at the same time.

I didn't hear anyone complaining that when they fired an avril and switched to a vorpal weapon, the avril was a vorpal when it exploded.

I didn't hear AMs complaining that they were getting too much adrenaline when drip and leech worked with an artifact running. What's wrong with globing through the last wave?

I don't hear high level players saying the piercing weapon is too powerful. Why does it need to do +30% damage?

I don't hear medics questioning why their infinite healing weapon does more damage than a standard weapon

I don't hear engineers questioning why their infinite link weapon does more damage than a standard weapon

I don't hear anybody saying the Triple damage is too powerful

Even before classes came along I didn't hear any players complaining that having both WM and AM skills together was too powerful

In my limited experience on this server, players never complain of a loophole if it works in their favour. And they usually complain to preserve it.

My position is to try to get a balanced game, where the classes can roughly score the same xp wise per map, and where all can enjoy the game. And that is what I am working towards. It is not easy.

And whilst a high level player of a class is in the best position to say what are the flaws and strengths in a class, they are not the best people to say what ruins the game for everyone else.

Dracos wrote:

You forgot to include Triples Drain on Adrenaline as well.

Actually it was the cost per sec for the rod I forgot. So an extra -2.

So its now
-20 + 6*(12-7.5) -2, leaving the AM 5 adrenaline better off

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

how well it works with multi-kills,etc is the real test something that powerful shouldn't be able to power itself, which was the problem before if I remember correctly

Agreed.

Look how can i put it in simpler terms, you cant fully understand what AM's go through until you play the class and experience it for yourself. Yeah you might see me jumping from one side to another... but hey do you actually see what my hands are doing, no, actually you don't. If you were to see my hands you'd probably be surprised, Im constantly pressing buttons to select translocator to telefrag and make quick escapes while sometimes switching to shield gun to kill, dodging the monsters attack from left to right, and personally i like dodging off walls, and lets not forget the obvious moving around and shooting stuff.
So i must disagree with you when you said you dont have to be an AM class to know its flaws, guess what you do.
You need to know what it is like to die at a low level, struggle to stay alive and a middle level, and then finally get a little break as a higher level AM.

As I said before you only see me jumping from one side to another, but actually what you dont see is me teletransporting up a wall to dodge whil shooting and using the rod, when I jump around and dodge off walls its mainly to evade attacks. That is why on that map (Anubis) i scored 3700 up to the end of wave 15 and then lost the map. To avoid being hit by attacks i used a quickfoot weapon to make me twice as fast ( oh wait are you going to complain that Im not suppose to be that fast?).

What you failed to mention is that you were the only high level player other than me that played the others were lvel 30 to 50 except rapier which i believe was in a turret... when do you see a level 30-50 score over 1000, they dont they are suppose to be that weak. besides you had around 500 pts around wave 6 or 7 while i had twice that, whats wrong with that i could do the same thing with my WM probably just not as fast. So if your going to state something please state all of them so we can get a general view of whats really going on.

Besides 4k, i didnt even score that with my junkie on that map, while i have scored 4k on my medic while the second highest score was around 1000 thats 3000 difference, so do you think that the medics are too powerful now? No like I said its skill in avoiding attacks, killing (youd be surprised how many instant kills you can get by telefragging), and using the dd almost every wave with beserk.
You think it doesnt take skill, but it does, if you want to prove me wrong then play as your AM and score high, lets see if its that easy...

Elite, you are a special case, and could probably beat 4k with just a shield gun and a trans. So, I am not at all worried what your score is.

I am concerned about gameplay, and am worried that if we have 3 AMs taking it in turns to TD/rod, then the game wouldn't be fun for anyone else. I am not worried about what score they end up with, just that no-one else would get a look in.

But I repeat, we cannot knock this combo without giving AMs something better.

Szlat wrote:

I don't hear engineers questioning why their infinite link weapon does more damage than a standard weapon

Hey wait, I did bring that up

greg11 wrote:

Szlat wrote:

I don't hear engineers questioning why their infinite link weapon does more damage than a standard weapon

Hey wait, I did bring that up

There are one or two exceptions, but you get my drift

demon wrote:

Imagine Fodder, Flaashman, Road, and myself on at the same time................all 500+ level players!!!!!!!!!!!!!What a dream time we would have tho.

i used to think that low level player "lowers" the DR of the monster so any game with out a low level player would be rather difficult am i right?

(Fodder+ Flaashman + Road, +demon = hard game
Fodder+ Flaashman + Road, +demon + a low level (lets say me) = easy game?)

junkie is just fine... btw

I've played with mystic for a very long time and you guys need to give him a break. He rarely makes unsubstantiated claims. When I first read his opinions in this thread I thought he was just blowing off steam but the more I read others comments against him the more I have to agree with him.

Some of you have come to the conclusion "don't judge us until you've walked a mile in our shoes." But like wise, if you were at a level 300 like Mystic and other classes below your level were easily outscoring you, you would be concerned too.

The only time when scores bother me is when a level 100 from another class doubles my score on the same map. That's when I have to think somethings off-balance here. I don't think just because you had a hard time between levels X and Y you should now be able to rule every map... but you do.

I challenge all other classes than WM. If you have a score of 3500 or above on any map then consider this:
1. You are a fantastic player.
2. Things are off-balance.

If you indeed think you are a fantastic player then nothing in this thread should upset you... you're a great player. If you think you are an average player then you are either doing so with the help of others or you are abusing an artifact.

To me, a truly balance group of classes means two players of different classes at the same playing skill and level should get approximately the same score. I think I'm an average player but many times I am trounced by players at 1/5 my level.

I know Elite and a few others should not be too concerned about what I've said here because I've played them when they were playing WM and they are in the "fantastic player" league, so I'd expect them to be great at any class.

I think things are off balance but I also think it really doesn't bother me if I'm no longer the high scorer, I just do it to have some fun in a familiar playground. If all I have is a bucket to make sand castles and someone else shows up with a pre-made castle mold and shows me up then so be it. His castle, as well as mine will slowly fade and mean nothing as time goes by.

Thè-Hättêr wrote:

(Fodder+ Flaashman + Road, +demon = dead before wave 6 game
Fodder+ Flaashman + Road, +demon + a low level (lets say me) = tough game--dead before wave 12?)

Hatter, see the corrections above and make the monster calculations for the above........unless all of us had lead throwing piercing weapons, we would not make it. A low level player would lower the odds but still the map would still be tough. A good balance is 3 lower levels (100 or less) to each high lever player

Now, on to the issue at hand. Somehow, a long time ago (back before the engineer class came out), I had this mental picture of the LW being the warrior class (the upfront brutes), the LA class was the mage/cleric class (long distance killers), the LM class being the medics/monster summoners (support), and the LE class being the builders (support). Where did I go wrong. Now, all four classes are pretty much warriors!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with Fodder tho. Mystic is just pointing out what he perceives as class imbalances. Let's not pour "woes" on him. Also, as I have pointed out previously, a mid-level (250+) weapons master can dominate a map at any given time and as a matter of fact the LW class was severely nerfed when the LM/LA classes were brought into being and then nerfed again when the LE class was brought on board.

Sometimes I wonder if we should go back to the original concept of one class, difference abilities as the player wishes/buys.

It's great to see someone (Dracos) who knows very well the junkie class even though he's not a high level player. You're right on the money, and you're opinion is very respectable.

Mystic wrote:

TALENT is not useing a triple and rod to just zap everything the whole wave every wave just because no one fixed it yet,and your high enough lvl to exploit everything you need to run it constantly,,

If you can read carefully what I said about talent, you can see that I never stated that talent was based on how good you can switch back and forth quickly to turn on and off artifacts. I said that it's a combination of several factors; skill, tools, aggressiveness, power ups, etc.

Mystic wrote:

and for the people getting snippy remember this is a discussion board not a pety comment board,

For once I think we both agree Mystic, this is a family server and "pety comments" about someone's sexual appetite are not welcomed here.

Szlat wrote:

One option would be that we leave the rod/triple option in there, but use triple the adrenaline. So you can still use it in an emergency, but not for long durations. Would people also prefer this for the beam/bolt?

Personally I would like to replace the triple/rod with something stronger, but aimed, but which would also help the low-mid level AMs. Positive suggestions please.

We have lots of options. What do AMs really want? Do they really want the indiscriminate rod/triple or something more powerful? State your wishes.

Szlat if you can go back in time, we can really see that initial complaints about the AM class was about the bolt/trippe combo. That combo was nerfed as well as the beam/triple combination.

Now it looks like the rod/tripple is bothersome to some people. Conclusion, the triple is at fault; too powerful. So why not get rid of it, but if it's taken out, it should be for all classes.

I was on board with getting rid of the triple, so was Ratar, and Micron. But the triple was kept and we now have new complaints.

So these would be my possible solutions:

Take triple out for ALL classes, take out the timers on the bolt, and beam. DD should work with bolt, beam and rod with no restrictions.

OR

Take out timers on bolt and beam, reduce the triple's power so it does the same damage as a DD. The "new" triple would still work with rod.

OR

If you want something aimed but no rod/triple combo. Get rid of triple, keep timers, but give the AM ability to AT LEAST +2 any weapon.

+1 on nerfing triple instead of the lightning artifacts
Triple damage practically means triple the kills/points/exp...etc
Turn it into a dd, and remove the timers.
Also, I think the dd preventing bolt issue was fixed already, but is waiting for Druid.

I have stated on many occasions that the main trouble is that the triple is too powerful. So many things have been nerfed because they can be exploited with the triple. These discussions started when Druid was a lot more active on the forums, and his response was to always nerf the other thing and leave the triple untouched. Since the RPG has his name on it, I can't go against what I believe to be his preference.

Even then, it is the spree bonuses that compound the problem. Without those we would still probably be ok.