junky unbalanced

(DC)DEMONSLAYER wrote:

Sometimes I wonder if we should go back to the original concept of one class, difference abilities as the player wishes/buys.

While I agree it would be much simpler, I fear it will not work. That is why Druid had to put the classes in originally. Once a high level player buys the lot, they are much too powerful.

Being one of the highest level AM's on the server, I guess I'll throw my two cents in even though I try to stay out of these discussions.

The last time we discussed this (a couple months ago maybe?) it was about the same things. Rod, triple, etc.

My last comments regarding the rod, bolt, and beam were that I just gave up using them. People don't like seeing flash-bang-dead all the time. The reasons vary from "it requires no skill" to "it's unfair because others don't get a chance to kill anything" as well as "scores are getting outrageous".

Each argument has flaws.

Saying it requires no skill isn't completely accurate. Any truly great AM player will tell you that the key to being successful at the class is managing adren. Anything useful the AM's can do will suck up a lot of adren quickly. So, yeah the rod is basically an auto-aim/fire perk, but it is rather weak and uses adren up fast. And I guess if you feel the rod requires no skill, then we'd better take out sentinels....they require no skill either....

The "other players don't get a chance to kill anything" is maybe the most valid argument. It can be frustrating in the early waves to watch scores of mobs get zapped dead before you get to fire a shot at them. It makes the early waves seem boring and pointless. This of course is really noticeable on small maps. HOWEVER....rod, etc. are not as useful in later waves. Also, I would equate much of this argument to the age-old "kill stealing" topic. Should we do away with Awareness? Seems to me the only reason to have Awareness is to see which monster has the lowest health so you can kill it first whether or not someone else had done the majority of damage to it. In a fast-paced game like invasion, I don't believe "kill stealing" is an issue. It's a shoot-everything-that-moves type of game. And as I've said before, I don't have Awareness and never will. I would find it too distracting.

The outrageous scores argument is D.O.A. For me, playing is more about just having fun with my DC buddies. Having a nice score at the end is great, but I'm not gonna step on people to do it. Besides, it is most definetely possible to have great scores without even using the rod, beam or bolt. My personal highest score (around 3700) came after I quit using them.

It could be said that each class is overpowerd in some way. Medics are impossible to kill in DM, and can spawn legions of monsters to help them. WM's get the full compliment of weapons to start each match (starting with a deemer and painter is nice) and increased damage, vamp, etc. Engineers can build vehicles, turrets, sentinels, and walls for bases.

If nothing else, perhaps the rod, beam, triple, etc. are a gift to AM's for grinding through their mid levels whilst (yes, I said whilst) dying a thousand times a match. AM's are a tough class to master, but it's a lot of fun once you get there.

Get rid of the beam and bolt for all I care. Leave me the rod for those tight spots where I'm alone and outnumbered....

actually Electrician I've found my Rod/DD combination much more effective in later waves (not sure of the TD/rod tho)
you'll see my AM trying to make a lucky weapon hide with the engineers spawning adren, waiting to max out my 175 adren and hoping for a DD
last nite I got a HS kill on wave 12 using this technique
with AMs it seems (in my limited experience) that it goes from next to no kills to multi...kill combo quickly,but it takes time to build up adren

at the end of the day I'd say the AM is not unbalanced at all
only some players have found ways to use the abilities not as they were intended
I blame Elite (in a good way my friend) , this server had not seen a player so skilled , aggressive , and a sound tactician to boot. till Elite came along
He has played the AM very differently than Electrician,Micron,Buster (Old school Ams I remember) did before him
and his tactics and secrets spread quickly till players were "abusing" the skills. Using one or two abilities and none of the rest at all
since playing My AM more I have gotten to respect the skill it takes to not only to manage adren, but not get hit by every monster around me (watch my WM and Medic

)

EDIT and for the record I don't see it as a huge issue as only a couple of AMs are high enough level to use the TD/rod ability effectivly

RoadKill v3.4 wrote:

actually Electrician I've found my Rod/DD combination much more effective in later waves (not sure of the TD/rod tho)
you'll see my AM trying to make a lucky weapon hide with the engineers spawning adren, waiting to max out my 175 adren and hoping for a DD
last nite I got a HS kill on wave 12 using this technique
with AMs it seems (in my limited experience) that it goes from next to no kills to multi...kill combo quickly,but it takes time to build up adren

The DD/rod combo does work great, but I don't know how effective that strategy would be on the whole. Having the luxury of hiding out somewhere on a map and waiting for a DD to appear or to build up adren is a rare thing, especially on tougher maps or when there are only a couple players left alive. Your comment about it taking time to build up adren was exactly my point. Usually around wave 10 or 11 I make sure that I have a ton of adren for the triple, globe, berserk, etc.

But, my playing style with the AM is probably different than most. I play it more like a WM. I am very aggressive (sometimes to a fault) and like to play it more along the risk/reward type play. I also know when it's time to duck and run if I'm in dire straits. Since I don't use the bolt or beam, and rarely use the rod, most of my adren in later waves goes to the triple and the globe.

IMO, an AM equipped with a piercing 7 rocket launcher, maxed out freezing mini, and a plus 4 energy flak is a pretty scary thing. That combo is what I aim for every time I play.

I have just had a quick rummage through the recent high score posts. Max rod kills tend to be about 85 for a map. The highest posted was 162 kills - which was for a medic!
Now I don't doubt that there are some players that are getting much higher kills with the rod. But based on the posted figures, the rod is similar to a sentinel.
Also, in all the posted examples, the rod is not the highest kill scorer for the player. This is a bit different to the bolt, where the bolt was usually the highest scoring of a player's kills. If players always kill more with a weapon than with the rod, then it can't be too out of balance.

As such, I see no justification for nerfing the rod + triple. Unless someone posts screen shots showing the situation is much worse.

so pretty much it comes down to the person useing the combo and his/her
respect for the other players in the current map playing.,<up to you i guess>
im asking you to keep the others players enjoyment level in mind as well as your own,as your about to unleash a triple/rod ..

i dont care if its get pulled ,nerfed or tweaked,but i do care about the the overall effect it has on others.,but when this does become a bigger issue later when more am's hit that lvl, here is a fix.

ps.. just limit the number of monsters it can zap at one time.

yall can gripe or complain about how the LR/DD/TD isnt a problem,.and try to make it seem as if the low level AM's cant use this combo,

so i made a played my AM, as i was told to.
and at lvl 25 i am able to exploit the rod/double dmg and the triple with a energy anything,

low level am's die to lack of health.,nothing more.

to use that as a defense of useing this combo ,. is weak. when low levels like myself and freedom fighter under lvl 40 can ,use it just fine and dandy it needs to be nerfed..

at lvl 25 i was able to exploit this combo to maintain it effectivly with 170 adreneline.
my weapon master can do the same lol .and maintain it without any energy skills.

the fact is super aoe zapping everything for even half a wave is retarded,its takeing the fun from others 7 people left because 2 people used this combo...the whole time.a lvl 400 and a lvl 39,both AM's

i made a artifact i know the deal,so dont act like i dont.its easy to use,and super zaps most everything in a couple zaps.while you get adrenaline. my weapon master does this fine so dont tell me your AM cant do it, it takes no effort what so ever to use a flak to spread fire as you super rod everything.

THE DOUBLE AND TRIPLE DMG IS TOO POWERFUL TO BE USED WITH THE ROD, and its sad to see others haveing to leave because a couple people use this combo at the same time.

Okay first your opinions are nice... but the fact is there is no one that is an AM at level 400 so I dont know where you got that from

Mystic wrote:

the whole time.a lvl 400 and a lvl 39,both AM's

Also the highest level AM is ratar which is level 342 not too close to the 400 mark yet

Okay so you've said what you wanted to say, do you have any proof of that or anyone to vouch for you. Because I do believe in fairness, and if we want to take your word I dont know about the others but I require proof or at least a couple of witnesses that this was going on. Ex: like a screenshot, or other people posting that you (Mystic as ArTiFaCt) have successfully mastered the triple and rod and can score very well.

And if i could use it for half the time let alone the

Mystic wrote:

used this combo...the whole time

I would be extremely powerful like you state and would probably score around 6000 almost every map or around there since you did say i used the combo the whole time...

And has your AM reached level 41 where he loses ghost 1, regen, and adrenaline drip (i think)? Well because if you have, you would realize it gets a lot harder to stay alive especially score.

So far all Ive noticed is a person who wants to alter gameplay for himself and others without the consideration of what others think

Mystic wrote:

yall can gripe or complain about how the LR/DD/TD isnt a problem,.and try to make it seem as if the low level AM's cant use this combo,

But remember this is a family server and it all falls down to druid to make the decisions around here not one person alone, because if you have been reading lately on these pair of posts most of them were against the banning of the combo but yet you persist, at least supply some proof so we may acknowledge the presence of some sort of bug or glitch.

P.S.-I'm sorry if Ive been hard on you, its just you need to carefully examine facts and opinions before posting

im not gonna lie to benefit myself,ive been playing this server for a long time, and you can claim me whatever you wish elite

all they gotta do is test it themselves, and they will see,everything but the ROD was nerfed because its druids not zlats, or it would of been,because of this very issue,
it sucks others dont see the problem,<nothing i can do about that but make posts> any class can use the combo if they have 150+ adren,LA's get added adren skills so theyre ahead of the others,

lvl 6000, 342 or level 29 doesnt matter,the combo is too powerfull,

this was the same issue with 320 useing the triple/double and energy to maintain adreneline to use the very combo im talking about, this is the same exact issue just a diffrent artifact,

there is no reason it shouldnt be fixed, it takes no aim.and hits everything,.then you add double or triple damage to that?

your not useing it properly elite and thats my issue, you claim to use it in certain situations but your useing it every chance you get,which is every wave or half of every wave,and now others are useing it,forcing others to log out untill you leave,

OK my lvl 50 somethin AM uses the rod predominately and DD when i can get it yet my highest score is 1600 (with wayno feeding me adren)

the rod is a steady source of xp for my AM, it is the most effective weapon I have ,but I do not wipe out wave after wave of monsters with it (only maybe one wave if I'm lucky) and the xp isn't always great but..I have to move about to be effective you'll see my death messages all the time when I turn the wrong corner into instant death

which is different than the ever camping engineers who's version of team work is to camp in one spot and just leach off one person while their sents get them extra xp
I have to work for xp ,yet I still have to camp with the engineers because no on else is moving on the map and the only way to survive is to hide with them.
Then I get to watch 6,7 players link 1 turret and kill everything on the map yay! how fun .So please don't go into there is nothing for me to kill tirade. watch the high scores recently the only players getting well over 2k are engineers whom are barely over lvl 100 , maybe we need to limit linking bonus for engineers too ?

I was front and center with the last " nerfing" (hate that term) of AMs and the singular "abuse" of the triple/bolt as I watched (erm what was the quote) a 60th lvl AM destroy my 300th lvl WM by over 1000 points having 30 flak kills and 300+ bolt kills.
This is far from that level of issue

and as for the moaning about having to leave when Elite is playing PLEASE!

I've played with Elite almost for as long as I've been played on this server and I can count twice when I got so frustrated I "had" to leave , check your egos at the door Elite will destroy them.
while he is not the most team oriented player. I've never had any issue with him (other than he is almost too good

)

whoa that went on sorry

but had to say what I had to say

Engineers dont leech xp .the other classes leech off of us from the comfort of our bases,so i dont know where you came up with that road,

and yes i do agree that 2+ engines linking a turret is just corny,it makes the turret way to strong and all the engis just sit back and link to one person.i dont take part in that its non challenging to me.

as far as the LR/DD/TD not everyone is abuseing this combo,and its happening only on the small maps.where the rod reaches or almost reaches the other side within a jump or few jumps.

all you gotta do is set your skills just right make sure you have 170+ adren and a good flak or a energy. and quick reflexes to turn them on and off or just set them up as hot keys,,pretty easy,

im simply trying to stop a issue before it becomes a big one.elite right now is the one useing this combo to its full effectivness on the small maps,but now his cousin at lvl 39 can do the same.as well as my lvl 29 AM, now whats going to happen when you have 6 more AM's all SUPER AOE ZAPPING everything.? what then?

use it by all means but when it does become a bigger issue as the AM's grow in numbers and levels. and later when it does get nerfed im going to have a field day telling you all so.

Out of curiosity, what has been the highest score you've reached with your lvl 29 Junkie using the "DD/TD/Rod" combo Mystic?

Since you claim that even low lvl players can "exploit" this combo, I assume that you at lvl 29 can pretty much dominate a map with that much adren. You got any screen shots of your high score and stats that you can share with us to support you claim?

PS-The challenge was not to "just" play your junkie, it was to get a "high score" WITH the "exploit" in question. Any pics of your outrageous high score using your low lvl junkie?

Disregarding Elite, Hobo, and Echo (not to mention a few others great players), rarely does any other player, regardless of class, comes close to me when I'm playing my 580+ WM and I'm not one to be mentioned in the catagory of "team player".

I've seen maps where I've have well over 1000+ points on the nearest player below me, yet extremely few people have complained. Is it because of my level? Players will use what works best for them, including the extreme high level players and yes, I have scored 1000+ points with my level 22 AM............

However, the comments are becoming a little too personal so let's agree to disagree without the personal comments.

yep once i scored 2440 points with my AM.. so it is quite posible.. but once again i have outscore really good players with my WM..

I think Mystic was right to raise a flag and say this could be a problem. At the moment I am going to leave it - I don't think it is significantly worse than sentinels. If I see screenshots that show AMs getting 200-300 kills with the rod, and the rod being their highest scoring weapon, then I will reconsider.

But I agree with Demon - this is getting personal and that does not help. This is not about what any one person can or cannot do, it is about overall gameplay. So please keep comments positive.