Beam/Bolt balance

Any chance we could leave out the beam and bolt artifacts in the next build of the RPG? I've observed some players using the artifacts to take down an entire room full of monsters in the blink of an eye. It's not the fact that they kill the monsters, but no one has a chance to even aim at the monsters, much less kill them. It just doesn't seem fair.

Anyone else feel this way or am I crazy?

Probably similar to how a LA feels when a LW sends a redeemer into the room instead.

Removing can be done at anytime, as the items can be configured out in the UT2004RPG.ini file.

Beam has to be aimed, so is not faster than a lightning gun. Out of the Beam/Bolt/Rod, I would prefer that one to stay.

Bolt and Rod are the ones that do not need to be aimed.

Bolt does 4 damage per adrenaline. So one AM with a full 250 adrenaline could do 1000 damage (ignoring DB/DR), and so take out 2 warlords of 500 health each. The AM then gets 20 adrenaline back, plus another 20 from Adrenal Surge and nothing from leech, so he would have 40 adrenaline - which would just be enough for a skaarj. Which doesn't seem too bad considering he has now used all his adrenaline.

However, if the monsters are smaller, it gets slightly worse. The 1000 damage will take out 6 skaarj at 150 each, returning about 80 adrenaline. So the AM can now do another 320+100 left over damage, so another 2 skaarj die, and the adrenaline from those kills will be just enough to take out 1 more skaarj - so a total of 9 skaarj.
But that is at the expenses of all his adrenaline - it would typically be another minute before they could do the same again.

I think the Rod is perhaps also a bit too good, considering that it is un-aimed. Looking at the high scores, quite a few of them get there with high Rod scores.

So I wouldn't necessarily be against getting rid, or toning down, the Bolt and Rod - but I am not so sure about Beam. I haven't notice that one get excessively used?

However, removing these two artifacts from LAs will alter the class balance.

Hey Echo, tell you what, you give up extra damage reduction and vamperism
and last level of loaded weapons then we'll talk.

Seriously tho, I still rarely survive warlords waves. The bolt is the only things that gets me through the tough waves, and the rod is the only way I can kill titans at my level (334) when i'm the only one left.

Also, If we get rid of bolt I think the 10 adren loss should be removed from the beam for misses.

The only problem with the comparison between a deemer and those artifacts is that weapon masters get a deemer only once per wave, whereas adrenaline masters can zap the entire area multiple times per wave and it is more effective than a deemer.

I don't have any qualms with the rod. Anyone can use it and it's not an instakill, so anyone can still have a chance to kill. And I think the cap on the rod/triple has helped deal with the bloated scores.

All those calculations are assuming that the player does not fire their weapon, correct? This is almost never the case. It's even worse with an energy weapon.

It hasn't been my playing style lately to excessively use the beam or bolt, but I'll give it a try and see what happens. My AM is level 129 and I generally score a little over 2000. And not every adrenaline master I've seen goes crazy with these artifacts. Just some.

If everyone feels like my suggestion would upset the balance, we could put in special exceptions to lower the adrenaline requirements for the triple and globe?

I've seen an accomplished AM (Ghost,Elite) take out most of a wave of warlords by themselves

the problem (if it is a problem) I'm seeing is that once an AM hits 100+ in lvls some have min/maxed (an old D&D term for maximizing potential damage) so they can take out most of the warlords in wave 12 by themselves

I'm not saying that it doesn't involve a fairly large amount of skill (and a Energy 3 Flak) , but it happens a little too fast a thoroughly
The bolt/beam combo have seemingly become the only artifacts used nowadays , maybe slowing down the rate of fire might help

my 2 cents worth...2 cents

Szlat wrote:

...
But that is at the expenses of all his adrenaline - it would typically be another minute before they could do the same again...

So your saying they have to wait A WHOLE MINUTE before being able to kill another nine skaarj by just using their bolt? OH my, we better up the power on that thing!

No, really I'm not in here caring if a level 100 AM has outscored me during an invasion map, I don't look at scores anymore anyway. But you cant compare a one time use redeemer to a multiple time use bolt. Especially when on quite a few maps there is a redeemer available for the AM, medic, or engineer to use while I have yet to discover a bolt available to me on ANY map.

I have to say I think that one kill bolt is too overpowered.

Speaking of which, while I have your ear, sometimes I play CTF or deathmatch and I was wondering if that bolt could be excluded from their inventory? I know my redeemer and ion is missing during those and I'm thinking a one shot kill bolt is too much against anyone.

EDIT: A big thank you to elite. He stopped using his bolt on me when asked and fought me fairly... fairly well that is, he usually kills me.

If anyone else refrains from using their bolt on me you will have my thanks too. Trust me, I can be killed and I often am during the game.

My only problem with the beam artifact is on the higher waves when I just about got a few big creatures whittled down so that I can kill them with a few flack shots each and a high level AM bolts them from all the way across the map and gets a multi kill out of it. Now, I understand that there is not any kill stealing, and a deemer could kill the same creatures, but would have to fly the distance between, not much (if anything) could just about instantly kill those creatures from that far away, and it does not cost very much adr at all to pull this off. The thing is, it leaves me that much less adr to heal others that need it on those last levels. I don't care about the score the monsters are worth, and the experience from killing them is ok, but nothing to write home about, but the adr may have been worth keeping some others alive which keeps the difficulty lower for everyone.

It wouldn't be so frustrating if they competed all of the time, but to have them stand to the side, not even firing at the monsters until you had them ready, not seeking other monsters out to kill, just watching their radar as the color changed, and then pop. All dead.

when it becomes too much, I just go play some deathmatch until that player gets off.

All points taken,

I really love my AM char. But there’s has always been extreme controversy over it. Unlike Eng or Medic, AM's are not a support class and I think, designed to fight at a distance (like a wizard or a necromancer). This is where they defiantly excel.

The problem I have is that the community seems to not want AM's to do what they are best, and not use their artifacts to their fullest extent.

But maybe there is only room for 1 fighting class.

This is the best server/community on the net and it bothers me that using my character as intended takes fun from my friends on this server.

Is there an opinion on removing the class all together?

Ratar_Killer wrote:

...

The problem I have is that the community seems to not want AM's to do what they are best, and not use their artifacts to their fullest extent...

I'm guessing that you mean boosting weapons? I'd love for them to do that more often. In all the time I've been playing I can only think of maybe three or four AMs who have consistently offered to boost a weapon for me without being asked and maybe a couple more when I ask. I find myself suiciding sometimes so I can get a piercing weapon but before I do I usually ask or seek out someone who can use my redeemer or ion. Maybe if the AMs become a little more vocal in what they can offer then we can all enjoy the benefits of their class.

Ratar_Killer wrote:

Is there an opinion on removing the class all together?

No, I enjoy the AM class. I play it the most nowadays because my WM ran out of things to buy and it's simply fun to play. It's more of a pseudo-support class because you can make/fix weapons for everyone, but the class also has high attack power. I just think the beam and bolt should be removed because their abilities are above and beyond anything else in the game. Just yesterday I received a score of 2700 (majority of the kills with these artifacts) without putting much effort into it. If a medic had been on I probably would have gone higher, which is ridiculous. I'll try a couple more times and see what I can get.

I was not aware the triple/bolt combo had been nerfed or am I reading this wrong?

Am characters are overpowered because of this combo alone....perhaps reducing the range on the beam and bolt is the answer.
Removing any of these artifacts completely doesnt make any sense to me.
There are only a few AM players that like to kill everything without anyone else getting a chance, I rarely play my AM anymore because of the constant in game comments I was getting......and that was before I even knew you could use the bolt/beam and the triple together.
When you are watching the whole wave of warlords fall to an LA player it is generally because of the triple being used with the bolt. It was at the time that I discovered the triple/bolt problem that I stopped playing my LA charcter. My hi score with my LA player was done without this combo, believe it or not.

I will somtimes play AM still when there are few players on or during a deathmatch.

I still find it way easier to play WM and engineer than my LA.

Each class has its own strengths, and their own weaknesses.

For an AM, the triple is definitely overpowered. The bolt and rod probably are. The beam maybe also.
For an Engineer, the sentinels are probably overpowered, and cause much negative feeling.
For WMs, maxed out vampire and superweapons are an incredible advantage.
For a medic, to have a permanent infinite weapon that heals you on splash damage means as well as getting xp betwen rounds you can fight nearly as aggressively as a WM.

Now there is no point just criticising the other classes. I think they all have something to offer. The question is just getting the balance right, so although they are different, they will be equal. But bear in mind, equal does not mean the same number of kills. Or kills in the same manner.

Likewise, you cannot just look at one thing in isolation, but have to consider it as part of the whole. When a AM is using his adrenaline he is very powerful. Be it globe, triple or beam. But when he has no adrenaline, he is much weaker, and dies quickly. As far as I am aware we have had WM scores of 3800+, and AM scores of 3900+, but neither has beaten 4000 yet. That sounds pretty balanced to me.

There have been times when I taken a bead on a monster and before I can even shoot, it's dead, or worse, I've about killed the monster and boom, it's dead.

Sometimes I get the feeling that I'm being followed by an AM player, waiting for me to shoot and weaken the monster and then they have a "one shot" kill. Most players know that I rarely use the triple/high impact weapon combo (triple and +5 weapon) simply because I can score mega points fast and take out a wave, which leaves other players mad.

The original reasoning was that a high level AM player and a high level WM player should be pretty much equal in scoring and that is not happening. There should be no way, outside the really talented players, that a level 100 AM can whomp the tar out of a 400 level WM (by a 1000 point margin).

This is one of the reasons I'm pretty much migrating to UT3 over the next few months. Everyone's the same class (WM/AM/Medic) with the same character. (not to mention the graphics and game-play)

As a side note, even high level WMs like Fodder and myself get chewed out by other low-level players for dominating the map.

Rater_killer said

All points taken,

I really love my AM char. But there’s has always been extreme controversy over it. Unlike Eng or Medic, AM's are not a support class and I think, designed to fight at a distance (like a wizard or a necromancer). This is where they defiantly excel.

The problem I have is that the community seems to not want AM's to do what they are best, and not use their artifacts to their fullest extent.

But maybe there is only room for 1 fighting class.

This is the best server/community on the net and it bothers me that using my character as intended takes fun from my friends on this server.

Is there an opinion on removing the class all together?

I don't feel that class removal is the answer. I would prefer not to feel like bear bait for other players when I have not volunteered. That said, I have played with you many times rater, and never felt like you were not part of a team supporting a single goal (survival).

There are plenty of supporting artifacts for the AM, but I rarely see them used. Perhaps if they were spruced up a bit more so that they were seen as more worthwhile, I suggest making them available at a lower purchase level. At the same time, if just a little of the effectiveness of the bolt/beam were adjusted with either a fire rate for the beam, or a minimum number of manna per shot that was much larger than the current.

One of the things about the AM class seems to be that paticular combinations of things timed a paticular way is several times as effective as either would have been alone, and seemingly you have to be in the know about what works, and what wont. I see this as the same as a weapons master firing a magic weapon from each hand so to speak, though I am NOT suggesting that.

AM is very hard to play up through the levels, I believe that they should be powerful when they finally get there, I just feel that they should need the rest of the team some times the way most other classes do on the last levels.

TEAM artifacts!! when was the last time you've seen them used ?
the only time I see them used is by low level AMs why ?

I love using the triple with my WM get me an E flak and I'm really happy
a rod and double damage and I'm one happy medic
but the maxing (or exploiting as it can be seen) of certain "techniques" can get out of hand by any class it's just more obvious with the AM class

yes a WM of 100+ lvl can dominate a map and a medic can be as aggressive if not more (just watch PAINKILL) as an WM. the issue as I see it becomes what is the seemingly effortlessness of the AM to finish off monsters were as the other classes have to give em heck to kill em.
some AMs do make an effort to be part of the team by going out of there way to hand out/make good weapons and as Wayno showed me having extra adren to hand out to low lvl Ams is always appreciated.

I believe it the insta-kills and unteamlike behavior is what bother most but the latter is not just a trait of AMs
The class is great don't get rid of it just a few adjustments are needed as some of are more resourcefull players have found some "issues"

oh you can nuke yourself with a deemer but not with a bolt/beam